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View Full Version : deion vs. champ


reese
05-29-2007, 04:32 PM
who would u rather have? and why

stephenson86
05-29-2007, 04:33 PM
who would u rather have?

champ purely because he can tackle, i like my corners to tackle

Moses
05-29-2007, 04:35 PM
Deion Sanders. Best cover player to ever grace the NFL.

They're hard to compare because they played in different eras but they are pretty even from my viewpoint. I think Deion has a slight edge in coverage but Bailey is obviously better as a tackler.

PACKmanN
05-29-2007, 04:35 PM
Deion, they just brought players to teams and young guys would love to play for him and he is a HOF CB.

princefielder28
05-29-2007, 04:36 PM
Deion was great on defense and helped on SP/T

Addict
05-29-2007, 04:36 PM
Champ Bailey... the guys super-dependable and can hit.

reese
05-29-2007, 04:38 PM
id take champ...he cover wrs today that are bigger stronger and faster then teh ones deion did...they are also more physical in some cases...im not sayin deion couldnt do it but i kno champ can...also wrs now days wouldnt shy away from deion like they did when he played

Hines
05-29-2007, 04:42 PM
i chose champ cuz i think champ can become the best corner in history in the nfl

i also dont really like deion cuz when i was younger my mom always use to let me call him an asshole
haha

Shiver
05-29-2007, 04:56 PM
These are always skewed in favor of current players. Deion Sanders, by far, is the superior player. Champ Bailey, as far as I am concerned, has been over-hyped. He was Defensive MVP caliber last year, don't get me wrong. It just he hasn't been that exceptional on a consistent basis.

23trufant
05-29-2007, 04:57 PM
Champ is probably my favorite player in the NFL but I would have to go with Deion for now, with a definate possibility that Champ could over take him.

For me they are 1a and 1b.

papa burgundy
05-29-2007, 04:57 PM
deion hands down. champ is great and plays at a high level but last year was the first time he's ever played at that high of a level where he really did lock down half the field... while deion played at that level for most of his career.

reese
05-29-2007, 05:15 PM
this past season was not his 1st at a high level..he had 10 picks this year and 8 the year b4 that

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:17 PM
this past season was not his 1st at a high level..he had 10 picks this year and 8 the year b4 that

Interceptions aren't the end all, be all.

reese
05-29-2007, 05:19 PM
ok he also had a high level of pass deflections and tkls

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:24 PM
He also got torched by Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, off the top of my head. He was somewhat nicked, but teams went after him in the '03-'05 time frame.

Moses
05-29-2007, 05:26 PM
He also got torched by Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, off the top of my head. He was somewhat nicked, but teams went after him in the '03-'05 time frame.

Teams went after Champ Bailey? Like teams go after Jason Webster? I don't think so. Who did the Broncos have on the other side that was so unappealing to throw at?

reese
05-29-2007, 05:28 PM
i would expect u to kno better then to bring up the fact that he got beat...of course he did...who doesnt get beat sometimes...deion got beat...peyton throws picks....LT fumbles...chad johnson drops passes..every player no matter how good they are isnt perfect...and i kno u kno this so why make the statement u made

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:29 PM
Bailey had a bad hamstring in '05, and was usually on an island, while they doubled Williams' man.

In '04, while healthy, he was abused by Jerry Porter and Chad Johnson, among others. A lot of people talked about how overrated he was like they talk about DeAngelo Hall now.

In '03, he didn't have that great of a season, and thus the Redskins were comfortable with trading him. In fact, in '03 he wasn't even the third best corner. Most people had Ty Law and Patrick Surtain ahead of him.

reese
05-29-2007, 05:36 PM
ok even if those guys were ahead of him he was still a top 5 guy...

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:37 PM
Yeah, he was. Still, being the 'best' corner for only a short period of time precludes him from any competition against Deion Sanders. Or some of the other all-time greats either.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Tackling=Champ
Man to Man=Deion
Special Teams=Deion
Zone=?
Game Changer=?

Game changer in the sense that the player is avoided more or planned against more.

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:39 PM
The only thing Bailey does better is tackling. But last time I checked, stopping the play from being completed is the primary goal, not stopping the player after he catches it, for a true cover corner.

Severe Punishment
05-29-2007, 05:41 PM
I'd still take Rod Woodson over both.

IMO Woodson was the best D-Back of this generation.

reese
05-29-2007, 05:41 PM
Tackling=Champ
Man to Man=Deion
Special Teams=Deion
Zone=?
Game Changer=?

Game changer in the sense that the player is avoided more or planned against more.


id say deion was avoided more...but if he played no that wouldnt be the case as much as it was now....wrs like TO or moss and chad johnson, boldin...those guys would look forward to the challenge of facing deion unlike the wrs of his time....alot of them will openly admit that they didnt want to go against him

neko4
05-29-2007, 05:43 PM
He also got torched by Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, off the top of my head. He was somewhat nicked, but teams went after him in the '03-'05 time frame.
Are you talking about Deion, cuz he was older by then

Anyway, I still remeber when Chad destroyed Champ

reese
05-29-2007, 05:44 PM
Are you talking about Deion, cuz he was older by then

Anyway, I still remeber when Chad destroyed Champ

he was talkin about champ

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:44 PM
No I was talking about Bailey.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 05:45 PM
Are you talking about Deion, cuz he was older by then

Anyway, I still remeber when Chad destroyed Champ

I need to see a vid of that.

reese
05-29-2007, 05:46 PM
I need to see a vid of that.

funny...i was just about to ask if anyone had a link for it...chads my fav wr and champ is my fav db so id like to see it

Shiver
05-29-2007, 05:47 PM
Nope, I guess it is too old ('04) for it to be on youtube. Chad Johnson had 150 and 1 TD, and I saw it with my own eyes. Jerry Porter did even better against Bailey, later that year.

TheChampIsHere
05-29-2007, 05:47 PM
Champ is great but Deion is Deion

reese
05-29-2007, 05:49 PM
Champ is great but Deion is Deion

that was very insightfull

neko4
05-29-2007, 05:51 PM
Nope, I guess it is too old ('04) for it to be on youtube. Chad Johnson had 150 and 1 TD, and I saw it with my own eyes. Jerry Porter did even better against Bailey, later that year.

Yeah, it was Cincy's first home-monday night game since the 80's

skinzzfan25
05-29-2007, 06:15 PM
I wish the skins still had Champ, Darrel Green, and Deion in the backfield lol.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 06:16 PM
I wish the skins still had Champ, Darrel Green, and Deion in the backfield lol.

Darrell Green=God

Well his speed at least.

skinzzfan25
05-29-2007, 06:19 PM
Darrell Green=God

Well his speed at least.

If we had all of them in their prime, that would unquestionably be the sickest backfield of all time. Too bad champ was on the rise and green and sanders were on the decline :\

Green could still probably run a 4.5, he's in good physical condition still.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 06:20 PM
If we had all of them in their prime, that would unquestionably be the sickest backfield of all time. Too bad champ was on the rise and green and sanders were on the decline :\

Green could still probably run a 4.5, he's in good physical condition still.

I heard at the end of his career, I mean like the twilight, he was burnin cats.

reese
05-29-2007, 06:23 PM
i heard green ran a 4.4 somethin like a year ago at some camp

Phrost
05-29-2007, 06:23 PM
i heard green ran a 4.4 somethin like a year ago at some camp

So F'n amazing.

broncs2bowl
05-29-2007, 06:26 PM
Right now when Champ is in is prime I would definately take him over Deion in his prime(but I am a Bronco Fan), BUT Deion was great for a long time whereas Champ has rly only been shutting down absolutely WRs for two years now. I think 5 years down the road Champ will be the best corner to ever play the game and surpass Deion. But right now Deion is probs the more proven one.

skinzzfan25
05-29-2007, 06:51 PM
i heard green ran a 4.4 somethin like a year ago at some camp

I think a few years back in the Pro Bowl he just got edged out by Deangelo Hall (maybe, but I'm pretty sure it was a falcon) Hall is a fast dude, and Green is over 40 now.

tom
05-29-2007, 06:57 PM
Champ Bailey is the best corner in the nfl today, Deion is the best cover corner of all time... I'll take deion... tackling is a plus, but corners that can cover like he does, don't need to tackle.

neko4
05-29-2007, 07:01 PM
If we had all of them in their prime, that would unquestionably be the sickest backfield of all time. Too bad champ was on the rise and green and sanders were on the decline :\

Green could still probably run a 4.5, he's in good physical condition still.

I went to the Art Monk football camp and that guy still looks good, I shook his hand too. :)

reese
05-29-2007, 07:03 PM
Champ Bailey is the best corner in the nfl today, Deion is the best cover corner of all time... I'll take deion... tackling is a plus, but corners that can cover like he does, don't need to tackle.

yea ur right corners dont need to tkl...cuz nlf teams dont run the ball at least 30 times a game or anything like that so y would a person on defense reguardless of position need to tkl

Phrost
05-29-2007, 07:55 PM
tackling is a plus, but corners that can cover like he does, don't need to tackle.

wow....just wow....

If you are playing on defense, I don't care what position you are, you need to be able to tackle.

Yung Flippa
05-29-2007, 08:04 PM
I'll take Deion; One of the best cover backs to play

bored of education
05-29-2007, 08:07 PM
Champ. I like Deion for his shut down purposes, but all around physical skills and mental skills Champ is ahead just a touch. But mirroring a receiver, no one was better than Deion.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-29-2007, 08:34 PM
Deion has 2 SB's, 2, yes 2, nicknames, 9 KR TD's, 53 career INT's which 9 were taken for a TD, and this man even played on offense, and has his number retired for FSU. Champ can't even begin to touch Neon Deion.

niel89
05-29-2007, 10:07 PM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/bradqb13/deion.jpg

BroadwayJoe10
05-29-2007, 11:01 PM
oh man such a hard question its like what do u want more a blowjob or sex; but anyways.

Its always tough deciding between the different eras considering the rule changes. So im gonna throw out a few names cuase of changes made in part because of them and their style of play; Dick "The night train" Lane and Mel Blount. And on the other hand there are those corners who in my mind had defensive coordinators up all night figuring out how to deal with them were Mike Haynes, Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey.

Ive always loved deion's quote " You show me a corner that can tackle, and I'll show you one that can't cover." Its not 100% true, but ill take his absolute dominance over a receiver and half of the football field even wiith his less than stellar tackling abilities any day of the week, and twice on sundays.
SO ill have to choose Primetime over Champ, and yes i guess im going with the bj in this question.

reese
05-30-2007, 01:24 AM
Deion has 2 SB's, 2, yes 2, nicknames, 9 KR TD's, 53 career INT's which 9 were taken for a TD, and this man even played on offense, and has his number retired for FSU. Champ can't even begin to touch Neon Deion.

u cant compare stats when champ has been in for 9 years and deion played 15

jsagan77
05-30-2007, 01:34 AM
I think a few years back in the Pro Bowl he just got edged out by Deangelo Hall (maybe, but I'm pretty sure it was a falcon) Hall is a fast dude, and Green is over 40 now.

I was at that fastest man competition and he came in 4th out of 5 people only beating Aman Green. Rossum, Hall and Steve Smith all torched him... But he held his own for not playing anymore..

Sniper
05-30-2007, 01:53 AM
i would expect u to kno better then to bring up the fact that he got beat...of course he did...who doesnt get beat sometimes...deion got beat...peyton throws picks....LT fumbles...chad johnson drops passes..every player no matter how good they are isnt perfect...and i kno u kno this so why make the statement u made

This is a lie...LT does not fumble...he voluntarily gives the ball to the other team when he's feeling generous...Don't confuse it with fumbling ;)

Sniper
05-30-2007, 04:12 AM
I loved Deion's quote...

Random Sideline Reporter Chick: Why don't you stretch before playing?
Deion: Does a cheetah stretch before it kills its prey?

Money...

duckseason
05-30-2007, 04:33 AM
I think it would be tough to find a guy within the NFL circle who would tell you that Champ is the better player. Among those who's knowledge of the game is sufficient to form a valid opinion, I would assume Deion is damn near unanimously regarded as the greatest shutdown corner of all time. Love Champ's game, but he's not even in the conversation at this point.

Modano
05-30-2007, 06:49 AM
I think it would be tough to find a guy within the NFL circle who would tell you that Champ is the better player. Among those who's knowledge of the game is sufficient to form a valid opinion, I would assume Deion is damn near unanimously regarded as the greatest shutdown corner of all time. Love Champ's game, but he's not even in the conversation at this point.

Exactly. The only thing in which Champ Bailey is better than Deion is tackling. Deion was the best shutdown corner of all time, one of the biggest defensive playmaker of all time, and he was primetime. Champ contribution comes only on defense, Deion excelled on ST, and he started some games even on offense. Not to forget Deion played baseball too...
Bailey's name doesn't belong near Deion's name.

duckseason
05-30-2007, 04:30 PM
this is an utterly ridiculous argument. even assuming that they'd played a similar amount of time, they played in VASTLY different eras in terms of guarding the receiver. is it any coincidence that bailey had his worst year the year the league focused on cornerback contact? i wonder if deion was better because, in the era he played in, he could more effectively "mug" a receiver without worrying about getting a call? or gosh, maybe the receiving talent is completely different (not better or worse) in the two eras, making comparison difficult.

regardless, anyone making "enough said" comments has no business taking part in any rational discussion. was deion better? i think so, but to act as if there was nothing about the era he played in that may have helped him look better is ridiculous.

further, for whichever one of you actually quoted RETURN statistics, keep in mind this is an argument about CORNERBACKS. return numbers have little to do with a man's ability to cover a receiver. let's try to keep up and not look stupid, ok? i mean, we won't even get into the stupidity of bring up that he played offense or an accomplishment from his college career.
Yeah, good points. I think that is the case any time you compare 2 players from different eras. You really have to use your imagination to figure out how each player would have fared in each other's shoes. It's like when people come in and say that Jim Brown was the greatest RB ever. "And it's not even close." I really don't think it's fair to compare players from different eras. Hell, even comparing players in the same era from different teams is extremely difficult because of the nature of the game. Some teams make things easier on their LB's. Some teams run a scheme that will produce huge numbers for the TE. I mean, what would Daunte Culpepper's career look like if the Bengals had chosen him instead of Akili Smith? Better or worse, I have no doubt it would be different. Now, there's no doubt in my mind that guys like Champ and Deion would be great corners regardless of the team they played for. So I'm not sure what my point is here. Oh yeah, I was agreeing with njx about comparing players from different eras, and just wanted to take that a step further. I guess it all boils down to the fact that there are endless factors to consider when comparing players in the NFL, and that the final equation is almost always a product of only a handful of those considerations. It's not tennis or golf, or even basketball or baseball. This is the ultimate team game, and guys rarely stand alone in their efforts. How would Thomas Jones have fared if he had dropped to the 19th pick in '00? And what if Shaun Alexander had went to Arizona at #7?

Anyway, I stand by my earlier comment about Deion's reputation. It'll be tough for any corner to reach his level of eminence. Somebody could be better, but to overtake Deion's tremendous reputation will take more than that. (imo)

Contr0versy
05-30-2007, 07:27 PM
I'd still take Rod Woodson over both.

IMO Woodson was the best D-Back of this generation.I agree. In his prime, Woodson was a beast.

jth1331
05-30-2007, 09:52 PM
Champ I think will go down as one of the best CB's to ever play the game. His awareness is just out of this world. Deion is still the best cover corner though.
I mean, Champ right now has 39 interceptions. Probably 4 more years or so at CB, getting about 5 picks a year at least, and he ends up with 59 interceptions. Probably will be in the 60's though. Also, you need to take into account he comes up with big plays when they are needed. At least half of his interceptions last year were inside the 5 yard line, taking away points from the opposition. I also love his tackling. Could Deion tackle Priest Holmes, LT, Larry Johnson 1 on 1?
And btw, Champ SHUT DOWN Chad Johnson last year in the rematch. He had a rough year when they introduced the new rules, but has completely dominated really since then IMO.
But, this is like comparing Jerry Rice to Marvin Harrison/Terrell Owens IMO

bernbabybern820
05-31-2007, 12:44 PM
Champ I think will go down as one of the best CB's to ever play the game. His awareness is just out of this world. Deion is still the best cover corner though.
I mean, Champ right now has 39 interceptions. Probably 4 more years or so at CB, getting about 5 picks a year at least, and he ends up with 59 interceptions. Probably will be in the 60's though. Also, you need to take into account he comes up with big plays when they are needed. At least half of his interceptions last year were inside the 5 yard line, taking away points from the opposition. I also love his tackling. Could Deion tackle Priest Holmes, LT, Larry Johnson 1 on 1?
And btw, Champ SHUT DOWN Chad Johnson last year in the rematch. He had a rough year when they introduced the new rules, but has completely dominated really since then IMO.
But, this is like comparing Jerry Rice to Marvin Harrison/Terrell Owens IMO

If we had a poll for that it would be Jerry Rice in a shutout.

Denver Bronco99
05-31-2007, 04:51 PM
Champ Bailey is the best corner in the nfl today, Deion is the best cover corner of all time... I'll take deion... tackling is a plus, but corners that can cover like he does, don't need to tackle.

when people say bailey can tackle...they dont me WRs....omst of his 80+ tackels he gets not only are more then most CBs get....they come from the stopping the run...so coverage has nothing to do with bailey comming to stop the run

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-31-2007, 05:29 PM
further, for whichever one of you actually quoted RETURN statistics, keep in mind this is an argument about CORNERBACKS. return numbers have little to do with a man's ability to cover a receiver. let's try to keep up and not look stupid, ok? i mean, we won't even get into the stupidity of bring up that he played offense or an accomplishment from his college career.

The arguement was actually which one would you rather have and why... Please read the first post before you make false assumptions

JetMan
06-01-2007, 02:01 PM
deon was the greatest cb i have ever seen.

also one of the greatest pr of all time.

easy one. neon deon.

oh yea, not a bad baseball player either.

JetMan
06-01-2007, 02:24 PM
this is an utterly ridiculous argument. even assuming that they'd played a similar amount of time, they played in VASTLY different eras in terms of guarding the receiver. is it any coincidence that bailey had his worst year the year the league focused on cornerback contact? i wonder if deion was better because, in the era he played in, he could more effectively "mug" a receiver without worrying about getting a call? or gosh, maybe the receiving talent is completely different (not better or worse) in the two eras, making comparison difficult.

regardless, anyone making "enough said" comments has no business taking part in any rational discussion. was deion better? i think so, but to act as if there was nothing about the era he played in that may have helped him look better is ridiculous.

further, for whichever one of you actually quoted RETURN statistics, keep in mind this is an argument about CORNERBACKS. return numbers have little to do with a man's ability to cover a receiver. let's try to keep up and not look stupid, ok? i mean, we won't even get into the stupidity of bring up that he played offense or an accomplishment from his college career.

good points but because we can't determine who was better from diffrent era's i will still have to say deon because he dominated his positon. while bailey is awesome and would love to have him, i can't say that he has the same effect on a game as deon did. rules or not it's still the truth.

it's like saying Babe Ruth doesn't compare with barry bonds, why? beacuse the pitches he saw were 30mph less then the ones that bb sees. good point but with an arguments from diffrent era's you really need to look at the way one impacts a game.


if the thread was about best cb ever, i would have to think the argument would be deon vs. mel blount from the steelers. while i never saw mel play i have heard that he also made the same impact that i saw deon make.

Draft King
06-01-2007, 02:31 PM
You have to go with Deion Sanders here. He dominated the NFL on both defense and special teams, while also playing on offense and in the MLB. He would shut down recievers night and day, and Jerry Rice even said he was the toughest CB he ever had to face. If you think Champ is fast, you never saw Primetime.

Grizzlegom
06-01-2007, 02:55 PM
id rather have deion because of his ST play in addition to his amazing CB play. i also think he was more of a team leader than champ is. he is a guy that everyone gravitates to because he talks all the crap in the world but he actually backed it up.

cunningham06
06-01-2007, 03:10 PM
I'd take Champ Bailey. Deion was the best cover corner to play the game, but Champ is really good in coverage too. The difference between the two in terms of coverage ability is nowhere near as large as the difference between the two in run support.

So while Champ Bailey is no Deion Sanders in coverage, he's still really really good at it, and is so much better than Sanders in run support, that I would take Champ Bailey.

JetMan
06-01-2007, 04:24 PM
how does bailey have less of an impact on the game? he literally shut down half the field last season, in spite of having no pass rush and abysmal safety play. he took away 8 touchdowns, iirc, by intercepting the ball inside the 5 yard line. how the hell are you going to tell me that he doesn't have the same impact sanders did if we're speaking purely about play at the cornerback position? if you're talking about overall play, how are you going to hold the fact that shanahan is scared of injuring champ against him?

dude are you serious?? stop throwing facts and abysmal play at me, different era's negate that crap and the falcons certainly were no powerhouse.

So shanahan is afraid of getting bailey injured? i guess that never concerned deon coaches? It didn't matter because he played them and he played them better than anyone i've ever seen.

but, i'm not here for his ST play, Deon set the bar for play at the cb position and until that changes I stick with Neon.

reese
06-01-2007, 04:41 PM
how does everyone think deion would do against the wideouts of today?..guys like TO, randy moss, anquan boldin, roy williams...i think he could stick with guys like steve smith and chad johnson...but ive wondered for awhile how he would do against those guys that are so much bigger then him

someone447
06-01-2007, 04:41 PM
this is an utterly ridiculous argument. even assuming that they'd played a similar amount of time, they played in VASTLY different eras in terms of guarding the receiver. is it any coincidence that bailey had his worst year the year the league focused on cornerback contact? i wonder if deion was better because, in the era he played in, he could more effectively "mug" a receiver without worrying about getting a call? or gosh, maybe the receiving talent is completely different (not better or worse) in the two eras, making comparison difficult.

regardless, anyone making "enough said" comments has no business taking part in any rational discussion. was deion better? i think so, but to act as if there was nothing about the era he played in that may have helped him look better is ridiculous.

further, for whichever one of you actually quoted RETURN statistics, keep in mind this is an argument about CORNERBACKS. return numbers have little to do with a man's ability to cover a receiver. let's try to keep up and not look stupid, ok? i mean, we won't even get into the stupidity of bring up that he played offense or an accomplishment from his college career.

I don't remember who said this, but one NFL receiver once said, Deion is the only person who can play bump and run without touching the receiver. Sanders very rarely made contact with a receiver. I honestly don't see how this is a legitimate comparison. The people who vote for Champ must have been too young to see Sanders in his prime. Teams would go GAMES without throwing it in his direction. Deion Sanders is the greatest cover corner in NFL history, and since a corners number one job is to cover, he is the greatest corner in NFL history. Woodson, Night Train Lane, Mel Blount, and Champ are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that I wouldn't just straight up laugh in the person's face(even though I don't think anyone is close to Deion.)

Plus, He is the only person to ever catch a Brett Favre pass in college and the NFL, both were interceptions. Obviously God allowed him to be the only person who caught his passes in both college and the nfl, so that is automatically a bonus point.

someone447
06-01-2007, 04:48 PM
how does everyone think deion would do against the wideouts of today?..guys like TO, randy moss, anquan boldin, roy williams...i think he could stick with guys like steve smith and chad johnson...but ive wondered for awhile how he would do against those guys that are so much bigger then him

Champ Bailey
Defensive Backs
Ht/Wt: 6-1, 184

Deion Sanders
Defensive Backs
Ht/Wt: 6-1, 198

He is bigger than Bailey...

reese
06-01-2007, 04:54 PM
Champ Bailey
Defensive Backs
Ht/Wt: 6-1, 184

Deion Sanders
Defensive Backs
Ht/Wt: 6-1, 198

He is bigger than Bailey...

ok and that means what? a players size has nuthin to do with him being physical or not...

and bailey is listed at 6 foot 192...he aint been 184 since college

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-01-2007, 06:52 PM
I'm a huge homer, but I'll still say Deion. He can cover better than Champ(if thats even possible after last year), althoughobviously hes a terrible tackler. That's okay though, because corner tackling is only reallllly important in a cover 2, and being in a cover 2 is just wasting these guys.

21ST
06-01-2007, 07:22 PM
Bailey had a bad hamstring in '05, and was usually on an island, while they doubled Williams' man.

In '04, while healthy, he was abused by Jerry Porter and Chad Johnson, among others. A lot of people talked about how overrated he was like they talk about DeAngelo Hall now.

In '03, he didn't have that great of a season, and thus the Redskins were comfortable with trading him. In fact, in '03 he wasn't even the third best corner. Most people had Ty Law and Patrick Surtain ahead of him.

we were comfortable trading him because he said he didnt want to be a redskin anymore

someone447
06-01-2007, 08:52 PM
ok and that means what? a players size has nuthin to do with him being physical or not...

and bailey is listed at 6 foot 192...he aint been 184 since college

He faced Michael Irvin, who is no less physical than any of todays receivers. Deion would do just fine against TO.

reese
06-02-2007, 03:41 AM
He faced Michael Irvin, who is no less physical than any of todays receivers. Deion would do just fine against TO.

he may play as physical...as may alot of the older players but when i said physical i also meant like as physically gifted as todays wrs....no wr in deions time looked like TO or anquan boldin...and nobody has ever went up after a ball like moss does when he actually feels like playin...except mabe lynn swann...he could go up and get them too

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:00 AM
he may play as physical...as may alot of the older players but when i said physical i also meant like as physically gifted as todays wrs....no wr in deions time looked like TO or anquan boldin...and nobody has ever went up after a ball like moss does when he actually feels like playin...except mabe lynn swann...he could go up and get them too
Huh? You act like Deion played in the '40s. Ever heard of Jerry Rice? Cris Carter? Sterling Sharpe? Michael Irvin? Andre Rison? Tim Brown? Herman Moore? Andre Reed? Dude. Deion played at the same time as TO & Randy, AND he even mentored Champ in Washington. Your point is baseless and therefore invalid.

reese
06-02-2007, 04:07 AM
Huh? You act like Deion played in the '40s. Ever heard of Jerry Rice? Cris Carter? Sterling Sharpe? Michael Irvin? Andre Rison? Tim Brown? Herman Moore? Andre Reed? Dude. Deion played at the same time as TO & Randy, AND he even mentored Champ in Washington. Your point is baseless and therefore invalid.

1st off i never made a point i simply asked opinions....2nd all those guys u named are perfect examples of exactly what i pointed out..they were the best of there era and a couple of them among the all time greats but they were in no way built like TO or anquan boldin...none of them had the ball skills of randy moss either...but like i said i simply asked ppls opinion on how they think deion would do against those wrs....so b4 u decide to call my points baseless and therefore invalid u might want to read what i say to make sure i actually was tryin to make a point

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:10 AM
1st off i never made a point i simply asked opinions....2nd all those guys u named are perfect examples of exactly what i pointed out..they were the best of there era and a couple of them among the all time greats but they were in no way built like TO or anquan boldin...none of them had the ball skills of randy moss either...but like i said i simply asked ppls opinion on how they think deion would do against those wrs....so b4 u decide to call my points baseless and therefore invalid u might want to read what i say to make sure i actually was tryin to make a point

What? So what do you mean when you say that Deion hasn't faced guys like TO and Anquan? How are you not making a point, and how is that a question?

reese
06-02-2007, 04:15 AM
my question was asked in post number 74 of this thread.....and when i say that deion did not play against wrs like TO or anquan...thats what i mean...those guys are built like lbs....6'3 230 and fast,strong and very physical...i cant think of any wrs in deions time that had the attributes of those two guys...and theres more in the league like them but those are the to best of the big wrs

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:29 AM
my question was asked in post number 74 of this thread.....and when i say that deion did not play against wrs like TO or anquan...thats what i mean...those guys are built like lbs....6'3 230 and fast,strong and very physical...i cant think of any wrs in deions time that had the attributes of those two guys...and theres more in the league like them but those are the to best of the big wrs
I was responding to the post I quoted.
It sounds like you need to read up on guys like Herman Moore and Michael Irvin. Many players in Deions prime had similar attributes to guys like Anquan. Like I said, your point is invalid. WR's today aren't as different from the WR's of the 90s as you make it seem. Like I said, Deion played at the same time as Moss and TO. That fact makes your statement 100% invalid. In other words, what are you trying to say? Because what you've stated so far makes no sense at all.

fenikz
06-02-2007, 04:48 AM
had to go with prime time, Deion just has game changing abilities that champ can't touch

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-02-2007, 08:41 AM
I was responding to the post I quoted.
It sounds like you need to read up on guys like Herman Moore and Michael Irvin. Many players in Deions prime had similar attributes to guys like Anquan. Like I said, your point is invalid. WR's today aren't as different from the WR's of the 90s as you make it seem. Like I said, Deion played at the same time as Moss and TO. That fact makes your statement 100% invalid. In other words, what are you trying to say? Because what you've stated so far makes no sense at all.

Exactly. There's no WR in the league who is as good as Rice or Carter were in their primes. Again, the new guysmay be bigger, but they aren't better. If being huge was the only thing needed, guys like Clarence Moore would be dominating and guys like Holt and Harrison would be scrubs.

P-L
06-02-2007, 08:51 AM
I think it's still too early to compare these two. Champ needs a few more years playing at the level he did last year to compete with Deion. While very good, he didn't do enough in his first seven seasons for last year's performance to push him up to Deion's level. Champ has been the NFL's best corner for one, maybe two years depending on who's opinion you ask. Deion was on top of the NFL for years.

Grizzlegom
06-02-2007, 11:05 AM
what, exactly, are you basing that on?

well, when deion came into the league, he was a team leader right away. he came onto that falcons team and became the face of the team and was the leader of that defense. then he went to san fran and was a team leader along with rice and young and he won DMVP. from there he went to dallas and immediately became the defensive leader. he consistently showed leadership at every stop.

champ on the other hand wasnt really a team leader with washington. when he came in, darrell green was the face of the defense and was the team leader. then in 2000 they drafted lavar arrington who really became the leader of the defense for the remainder of champ's time there. i just feel like he wasnt really a great team leader until he moved over to the broncos, whereas deion was a everywhere he played.

reese
06-02-2007, 01:53 PM
I was responding to the post I quoted.
It sounds like you need to read up on guys like Herman Moore and Michael Irvin. Many players in Deions prime had similar attributes to guys like Anquan. Like I said, your point is invalid. WR's today aren't as different from the WR's of the 90s as you make it seem. Like I said, Deion played at the same time as Moss and TO. That fact makes your statement 100% invalid. In other words, what are you trying to say? Because what you've stated so far makes no sense at all.

ur just wrong...i dont see how u can say wrs had similar attributes to TO or anquan..;no they did not...i do not need to read up on herman moore of michael irvin...those guys were good....but id call them skinny next to the guys i talked about...and yes deion played at the same time as TO and moss but obviously its becoming clearer and clearer that i dont watch football becuz when they came into the league they were not no.1 wrs on there team so deion would not have been covering them...and then when they were no.1 wrs...deion was a nickleback/third corner...so he wouldnt have been coverin them then either

reese
06-02-2007, 01:57 PM
Exactly. There's no WR in the league who is as good as Rice or Carter were in their primes. Again, the new guysmay be bigger, but they aren't better. If being huge was the only thing needed, guys like Clarence Moore would be dominating and guys like Holt and Harrison would be scrubs.

another person who just doesnt get it...notice i didnt mention clarence moore...i also didnt mention matt jones....i dont think that since is all there is to it...thats why i said TO, anquan, and moss....becuz those guys are as athletic as anyone who is in the league AND they are huge wrs...and i kno all the old ppl will get mad but when u say no wr in the league is as good as rice and carter was in there prime thats not nessacerily true...when moss and TO actually want to play they are uncoverable..as were rice and carter

Acreboy
06-02-2007, 02:24 PM
I'd rather have Deion because he's better.

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 02:29 PM
well, when deion came into the league, he was a team leader right away. he came onto that falcons team and became the face of the team and was the leader of that defense. then he went to san fran and was a team leader along with rice and young and he won DMVP. from there he went to dallas and immediately became the defensive leader. he consistently showed leadership at every stop.

champ on the other hand wasnt really a team leader with washington. when he came in, darrell green was the face of the defense and was the team leader. then in 2000 they drafted lavar arrington who really became the leader of the defense for the remainder of champ's time there. i just feel like he wasnt really a great team leader until he moved over to the broncos, whereas deion was a everywhere he played.

That's unfair to compare Champ and Deion's situation like that. No rookie could go into the Skins defense and immediately supplant Darrell Green as the leader. Green is a probable HOF'er, and had been the man in Washington for 16 seasons.

The Falcons 89 defense had some solid players, but the only one who was actually good was Scott Case. Jessie Tuggle was pretty good as well, but the 89 Falcons defense wasn't as good as the 99 Redskins defense.

duckseason
06-02-2007, 03:29 PM
ur just wrong...i dont see how u can say wrs had similar attributes to TO or anquan..;no they did not...i do not need to read up on herman moore of michael irvin...those guys were good....but id call them skinny next to the guys i talked about...and yes deion played at the same time as TO and moss but obviously its becoming clearer and clearer that i dont watch football becuz when they came into the league they were not no.1 wrs on there team so deion would not have been covering them...and then when they were no.1 wrs...deion was a nickleback/third corner...so he wouldnt have been coverin them then either
I think that's all that needs to be said.

Regardless of whether you think Anquan has superior attributes to guys like Irvin, the fact remains that Deion is a part of the same era as TO and Moss. In fact, he covered both of them while they were at the top of their game. It just seems odd that you would portray Deion to be from some long lost era. The man has faced some of the best WR's this game has ever seen, and that includes your primary examples of superior athletes to what existed in the early 90s. Stop acting like Deion retired in '95. You're making no sense at all.

reese
06-02-2007, 03:47 PM
i was being scarcastic...deion did not cover moss or owens in there prime..

duckseason
06-02-2007, 03:50 PM
i was being scarcastic...deion did not cover moss or owens in there prime..

Do some research.

reese
06-02-2007, 03:51 PM
u need to...find a video of him coverin either 1 in there prime...go ahead...ill wait

duckseason
06-02-2007, 03:57 PM
u need to...find a video of him coverin either 1 in there prime...go ahead...ill wait

Does my screen name say secretary?

I know for a fact he covered both of them. I sat there and watched him do it. When he covered Moss it was the most anticipated matchup of the season. Didn't turn out all that great, but he did cover him in that game. And I know for a fact he fact he faced TO as an Eagle. You find the damn videos. You're the one who has yet to see it.

reese
06-02-2007, 03:58 PM
michael irvin...6'2 207
chris carter...6'3 208
herman moore...6'4 210
jerry rice...6'2 200


terrell owens...6'3 229
anquan boldin...6'1 224
roy williams...6'2 214
larry fitzgerald..6'3 226

so i guess ur still gonna tell me those guys are as big as the ones today

reese
06-02-2007, 03:59 PM
Does my screen name say secretary?

I know for a fact he covered both of them. I sat there and watched him do it. When he covered Moss it was the most anticipated matchup of the season. Didn't turn out all that great, but he did cover him in that game. And I know for a fact he fact he faced TO as an Eagle. You find the damn videos. You're the one who has yet to see it.

how could i find i video of somethin i said didnt happen...it didnt happen thats why there is no video of it...if there is such a video then find it

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:07 PM
how could i find i video of somethin i said didnt happen...it didnt happen thats why there is no video of it...if there is such a video then find it

Right. So if you didn't see it, it didn't happen. So football before 2005 doesn't exist.

A simple google search turned up this.
While opposing teamsí top cornerback and receiver donít necessarily go up against one another every play of the game, it only makes sense that they will go one-on-one quite a bit. Here then are my top 15 WR-CB matchups for the upcoming season.

1. Randy Moss vs. Deion Sanders (Nov. 8) ó I donít rank Moss as the No. 1 wide receiver in the league at this moment (that honor goes to Freeman), but I do rank Moss as the most attention-grabbing receiver in the NFL at this time. Itís amazing how much he dominated last season despite the fact that he hadnít yet soaked in all of the subtle nuances of the position. Itís scary to think how good Moss can become if heís willing to become a student of the position. "Scary" is exactly how good Sanders is when heís healthy. If Sandersí toe is OK, this matchup will be an all-out war between the gameís two biggest game-breakers at their respective positions.
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/features_1999/closer_look_081099.asp

I sat there and watched that game.
You've lost a lot of credibility in this thread. Try not to speak on matters you know nothing of.

reese
06-02-2007, 04:14 PM
Right. So if you didn't see it, it didn't happen. So football before 2005 doesn't exist.

A simple google search turned up this.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/features_1999/closer_look_081099.asp

I sat there and watched that game.
You've lost a lot of credibility in this thread. Try not to speak on matters you know nothing of.

thank you for proving my point...i said deion did not face moss in his prime and i still say that...the article u posted is from '99 and that was moss's second year in the league....did u read the article u posted?...it plain states how moss hasnt learned the position fully yet and how its scary how good he can be when he does learn it....which means he wasnt in his prime so like i said u proved my point...and for ur statement about me losing credit on this thread...2 ppl have added rep to me for post on this thread while on the other hand not a single person has neg repped me....and while i kno that doesnt mean everyone agrees with me..it also means im not sayin anythng as stupid as u make it sound

ATLDirtyBirds
06-02-2007, 04:20 PM
Dieon. There's really no doubt in my mind. The only thing Champ is better at is tackling. A shutdown corner doesn't need to be a great tackler.

Denver Bronco99
06-02-2007, 04:23 PM
Dieon. There's really no doubt in my mind. The only thing Champ is better at is tackling. A shutdown corner doesn't need to be a great tackler.

that debatable...becasue a GREAT corner should be good at everthing


thats like saying a GREAT DE can be a pass rusher only.....a great one should be able to do it all

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:24 PM
thank you for proving my point...i said deion did not face moss in his prime and i still say that...the article u posted is from '99 and that was moss's second year in the league....did u read the article u posted?...it plain states how moss hasnt learned the position fully yet and how its scary how good he can be when he does learn it....which means he wasnt in his prime so like i said u proved my point...and for ur statement about me losing credit on this thread...2 ppl have added rep to me for post on this thread while on the other hand not a single person has neg repped me....and while i kno that doesnt mean everyone agrees with me..it also means im not sayin anythng as stupid as u make it sound
Randy Moss was at the top of his game when he entered the league. Ask the CB's who tried to cover him. He was certainly a much tougher matchup in '99 than he was last year. The fact remains that Deion did face these other worldly WR's that you speak of. No need to argue the exact moment Moss hit the apex of his ability. As far as DB's are concerned, those '98, '99 and '00 Vikings teams were some of the toughest they ever had to defend.

What exactly are you even arguing? What is your point? All you've done is make false claims for no apparent reason.

reese
06-02-2007, 04:25 PM
just becuz this is gettin long and i doubt everybody reads the whole thing...i dont doubt deion at all...he has the best ball skills of any player ive ever seen...that includes wrs...he goes and attacks the ball like no other...i simply asked ppls opinions on how they think he would do against the wrs of today since they are so much more of physical specimans then they were when he played...

P-L
06-02-2007, 04:25 PM
the article u posted is from '99 and that was moss's second year in the league....

In Moss' second year in the league he caught 80 balls for 1413 yards and 11 TD. You're talking about the year when Moss was second in the NFL in receiving yard correct? The same year when he grabbed 11 TD and the league leader (teammate Cris Carter) had 13? We're talking about the year that Moss lead the NFL in yards per reception by a wide margin, right? In case you can't remember that far back, Moss made an instant impact and was a top five receiver in the league by his second year.

reese
06-02-2007, 04:28 PM
Randy Moss was at the top of his game when he entered the league. Ask the CB's who tried to cover him. He was certainly a much tougher matchup in '99 than he was last year. The fact remains that Deion did face these other worldly WR's that you speak of. No need to argue the exact moment Moss hit the apex of his ability. As far as DB's are concerned, those '98, '99 and '00 Vikings teams were some of the toughest they ever had to defend.

What exactly are you even arguing? What is your point? All you've done is make false claims for no apparent reason.

please tell me what false claim i made...and randy moss was not at the top of his game then...like that article said he had not leaned the position completely by his second year..no wr could learn it that fast...

reese
06-02-2007, 04:30 PM
In Moss' second year in the league he caught 80 balls for 1413 yards and 11 TD. You're talking about the year when Moss was second in the NFL in receiving yard correct? The same year when he grabbed 11 TD and the league leader (teammate Cris Carter) had 13? We're talking about the year that Moss lead the NFL in yards per reception by a wide margin, right? In case you can't remember that far back, Moss made an instant impact and was a top five receiver in the league by his second year.

i never said he didnt make an istant impact..if im not mistaken he had 17 tds as a rookie right? all i said was exactly what that article said and that is that moss was still learning in his second year..he wasnt in his prime...while his numbers may make it look that way...u also have to relize that he was in a perfect situation to put up the numbers that he did

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:34 PM
please tell me what false claim i made..
Are you serious?

...no wr in deions time looked like TO or anquan boldin...
when they came into the league they were not no.1 wrs on there team so deion would not have been covering them...and then when they were no.1 wrs...deion was a nickleback/third corner...so he wouldnt have been coverin them then either
...deion did not cover moss or owens in there prime..
how could i find i video of somethin i said didnt happen...it didnt happen thats why there is no video of it...if there is such a video then find it

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 04:39 PM
Does my screen name say secretary?

I know for a fact he covered both of them. I sat there and watched him do it. When he covered Moss it was the most anticipated matchup of the season. Didn't turn out all that great, but he did cover him in that game. And I know for a fact he fact he faced TO as an Eagle. You find the damn videos. You're the one who has yet to see it.

I don't remember the game vividly enough to say how much of the time TO was being covered by Deion, but here's some proof:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/recap?gid=20041031021

"T.O.'s good for the game,'' said cornerback Deion Sanders, one of the most flamboyant players in the league. ``He's great for the game of football. He brings a lot of flavor to a somewhat boring sport. I'm OK with it.''

reese
06-02-2007, 04:40 PM
ok tell me what wr in deion's prime was built like TO or anquan

when deion was in his prime...TO was the 2nd wr on his team as was moss..they were on the other sides of rice and carter in case u forgot

i already went over the fact they didnt cover them in there prime...but since u brought up the '99 matchup with moss and deion...moss had 6 catches for 91 yards and 2 touchdowns in that game

reese
06-02-2007, 04:41 PM
I don't remember the game vividly enough to say how much of the time TO was being covered by Deion, but here's some proof:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/recap?gid=20041031021

deion was a nickle/third corner when he was with the ravens..he didnt cover TO

reese
06-02-2007, 04:44 PM
and the game when TO played the ravens...he had 8 catches for 101 and a td...but deion wasnt coverin him anyway

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 04:44 PM
deion was a nickle/third corner when he was with the ravens..he didnt cover TO

He did, I don't remember how much, but he was covering TO on a few plays. The Ravens defense is different from others coverage wise, they switch up who covers who. A lot of the time, their best CB Chris McCalister plays the #2 WR by himself while Samari and Reed/Landry cover the #1. Hell they once put Adalius Thomas on Chad Johnson.

reese
06-02-2007, 04:47 PM
well mabe the 8 catches and the 100 yards and the td wasnt on deion

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 04:49 PM
Maybe not but this is you guys's argument, just some input that he has covered TO before.

duckseason
06-02-2007, 04:51 PM
ok tell me what wr in deion's prime was built like TO or anquan

when deion was in his prime...TO was the 2nd wr on his team as was moss..they were on the other sides of rice and carter in case u forgot

i already went over the fact they didnt cover them in there prime...but since u brought up the '99 matchup with moss and deion...moss had 6 catches for 91 yards and 2 touchdowns in that game

Well, for one, TO. That is my point. Deion played at the same time as these other guys. Stop acting like we're talking about Dick Lane here.

And yes Moss had a great game against Dallas. You don't seem to understand the intricacies of NFL defensive schemes. This isn't Madden. Team A doesn't just line up their top CB against Team B's top WR and tells him to go shadow him all day. If you had watched the game, you'd be aware of the fact that Moss saw a variety of coverages. I don't recall him doing anything at all on Deion.

reese
06-02-2007, 04:53 PM
i kno...and i relize there careers have overlapped so they probely seen each other here and there but they were not going at each other in there primes which was really all i was tryin to say

reese
06-02-2007, 04:57 PM
Well, for one, TO. That is my point. Deion played at the same time as these other guys. Stop acting like we're talking about Dick Lane here.

And yes Moss had a great game against Dallas. You don't seem to understand the intricacies of NFL defensive schemes. This isn't Madden. Team A doesn't just line up their top CB against Team B's top WR and tells him to go shadow him all day. If you had watched the game, you'd be aware of the fact that Moss saw a variety of coverages. I don't recall him doing anything at all on Deion.

of course u dont recall him doing anything on deion...y would u when that would go against ur argument...and u dont seem to understand that havin a shutdown corner like deion or champ gives u the opputunity to match man to man with the other teams best wr and not give that corner any help...thats why great cover corners have such a high value in the league becuz a defense can be alot more flexible with a corner that can match up man to man with a teams best wr

duckseason
06-02-2007, 05:01 PM
and the game when TO played the ravens...he had 8 catches for 101 and a td...but deion wasnt coverin him anyway
At least you're now aware that Deion did indeed face TO in his prime. Never said Deion was in his prime, but he surely did cover him. I think I've made my point that Deion is indeed a part of the same era as these super godly WR's that are so much more athletic than guys like Sterling Sharpe.


Oh, he also faced TO in '97.
http://theboys.com/97Games/wk10main.asp

Sure they didn't hit their primes at the same time, but they are a part of the same era. Which is my basic point.

duckseason
06-02-2007, 05:08 PM
of course u dont recall him doing anything on deion...y would u when that would go against ur argument...and u dont seem to understand that havin a shutdown corner like deion or champ gives u the opputunity to match man to man with the other teams best wr and not give that corner any help...thats why great cover corners have such a high value in the league becuz a defense can be alot more flexible with a corner that can match up man to man with a teams best wr

Dig up a game recap and see if it mentions him scoring on Deion. I think they also played each other in the playoffs that year.

reese
06-02-2007, 05:10 PM
'97....like i said not in his prime TO was only in his second year

duckseason
06-02-2007, 05:15 PM
'97....like i said not in his prime TO was only in his second year

Thanks for reiterating what I already pointed out.

someone447
06-02-2007, 05:53 PM
that debatable...becasue a GREAT corner should be good at everthing


thats like saying a GREAT DE can be a pass rusher only.....a great one should be able to do it all

If a player like Champ or Deion are in run support, they are being seriously misused. Deion was locked up on someone all game, therefore, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO TACKLE!!!!

someone447
06-02-2007, 05:59 PM
'97....like i said not in his prime TO was only in his second year

Are you eacantdraft? Please tell me that there aren't two people that stupid in the world. This whole thread would make a hell of a lot more sense if you two are the same person.

Yes, Herman Moore, Sterling Sharpe, and Michael Irvin were slouches, they were horrible. Sanders rarely even touched a wide receiver, so their physicality wouldn't even matter(plus he is bigger than Bailey). He was probably one of the best jumpers in the league.

Think how good Bailey played this past year, now imagine Bailey playing that way for 10 years.

reese
06-02-2007, 08:48 PM
Are you eacantdraft? Please tell me that there aren't two people that stupid in the world. This whole thread would make a hell of a lot more sense if you two are the same person.

Yes, Herman Moore, Sterling Sharpe, and Michael Irvin were slouches, they were horrible. Sanders rarely even touched a wide receiver, so their physicality wouldn't even matter(plus he is bigger than Bailey). He was probably one of the best jumpers in the league.

Think how good Bailey played this past year, now imagine Bailey playing that way for 10 years.

what was that post even about?

reese
06-02-2007, 08:50 PM
Thanks for reiterating what I already pointed out.

u said deion faced them in there prime..he did not...i never said he that never never played in a game where they were on the opposing team...i said he never had to guard them in there primes

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-02-2007, 08:54 PM
Damn, sucks for him that he had to miss playing Moss and TO in their primes, he coulda really proved himself. Too bad he had to settle for Jerry Rice, Cris Carter and Michael Irvin. Oh well, them's the breaks.

duckseason
06-02-2007, 09:13 PM
u said deion faced them in there prime..he did not...i never said he that never never played in a game where they were on the opposing team...i said he never had to guard them in there primes
Yeah, we already established that he faced both of them while at the top of their game. I mentioned the '97 game as an "oh yeah, he also faced him in '97" little afterthought tidbit. I was just furthering the point that Deion and TO belong to the same era. Again, I ask is there any point to your posts other than to falsely claim that Deion played against inferior talent to that of the likes of TO and Moss? Seriously, what are you even saying? It seems as though you've never even seen Deion play, and instead just looked up his bio and mistook the listing of his rookie year as the year he retired. So do us all a favor and take a second look.

KWill93
06-03-2007, 04:03 AM
I'll take "Neon Deion" in a heartbeat.

BlindSite
06-03-2007, 04:08 AM
I'd still take Rod Woodson over both.

IMO Woodson was the best D-Back of this generation.

I tend to agree, I mean the guy broke a lot of records.

Woodson is among the NFL's all time leaders in games played as a defensive back and interceptions. In his 17 NFL seasons, Woodson recorded 71 interceptions, 1,483 interception return yards, 32 fumble recoveries (15 offensive and 17 defensive), 137 fumble return yards, 2,362 punt return yards, and 15 touchdowns(12 interception returns, 1 fumble return, 2 punt returns). He holds the league record for interceptions returned for touchdowns with 12, and is tied with 11 other players for the record for most fumble recoveries in a single game(3). His 1,483 interception return yards are also an NFL record.

For his excellence on the field, Woodson has been named to the Pro Bowl eleven times, a record for a defensive back. Woodson was named 1993's NFL Defensive Player of the Year by the Associated Press.

someone447
06-03-2007, 12:13 PM
I tend to agree, I mean the guy broke a lot of records.

Which means that teams weren't afraid to throw his way. Of course Deion isn't going to have the stats, teams wouldn't throw towards the guy he was guarding for games at a time.

Denver Bronco99
06-03-2007, 12:31 PM
Which means that teams weren't afraid to throw his way. Of course Deion isn't going to have the stats, teams wouldn't throw towards the guy he was guarding for games at a time.

thats not nessarrily true....if a DB was thrown at 2 times a game and made a play both time he COULD have 32 ints a season....while VERY!!!! unlikey that means not only was he avoided only 32 times thrown at, but he made the most out of the two times a game he was thrown at....as good as deon was it looks like woodson made more plays, when given the chance

someone447
06-03-2007, 01:11 PM
thats not nessarrily true....if a DB was thrown at 2 times a game and made a play both time he COULD have 32 ints a season....while VERY!!!! unlikey that means not only was he avoided only 32 times thrown at, but he made the most out of the two times a game he was thrown at....as good as deon was it looks like woodson made more plays, when given the chance

I would bet everything I own that Deion made a bigger percentage of plays. There were entire games where he wasn't thrown towards even ONCE.

Denver Bronco99
06-03-2007, 01:19 PM
I would bet everything I own that Deion made a bigger percentage of plays. There were entire games where he wasn't thrown towards even ONCE.

ok...but your logic is stating that Rod was thrown at...but he appears to have made more plays...not saying he has a higher percentage of making plays...but in his own right rod def. was a lock down CB...and he appears to have made his own fair share of plays

someone447
06-03-2007, 01:37 PM
ok...but your logic is stating that Rod was thrown at...but he appears to have made more plays...not saying he has a higher percentage of making plays...but in his own right rod def. was a lock down CB...and he appears to have made his own fair share of plays

I'm not denying that at all. He is an alltime great corner, top 5 for sure. I am just arguing that Deion is THE alltime great corner.

21ST
06-03-2007, 01:46 PM
I hate both with a passion but it is deion no doubt. rod woodson LOL he isnt even in the top 3 all time corners let alone best db

Denver Bronco99
06-03-2007, 01:50 PM
I'm not denying that at all. He is an alltime great corner, top 5 for sure. I am just arguing that Deion is THE alltime great corner.

see no matter how good of a COVER cb he was he was not a complete corner....

i hands down say deion was the best COVER cb...but not the best cb of all time

The Legend
06-03-2007, 03:04 PM
they are 32 people on this forum who make me crack up

detroit4life
06-03-2007, 03:09 PM
i would take a CB who can lock down his wr all game over a cb who can come up into run support anyday. Deion was not asked to come up into run support because that wasnt his job so how isnt he a complete corner. He enver played in a zone defense his job was to solely take his WR out of the game and thats what he did.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-03-2007, 03:29 PM
While tackling is useful, it's almost like coverage from a DE. Do you need to be able to drop back in coverage to be a great DE? Nope, not at all. Does it help? It sure does. It's really a miniscule amount of times it's even going to happen, really, so there's no way it should influence a decision over someone who is a better pass rusher and run stopper(in terms of DE) or in coverage, for a corner. Champ was amazing last year, but still, that is one year of hard dominance with several more years of fantastic play, where Deion was year after year after year of dominance.

someone447
06-03-2007, 05:37 PM
While tackling is useful, it's almost like coverage from a DE. Do you need to be able to drop back in coverage to be a great DE? Nope, not at all. Does it help? It sure does. It's really a miniscule amount of times it's even going to happen, really, so there's no way it should influence a decision over someone who is a better pass rusher and run stopper(in terms of DE) or in coverage, for a corner. Champ was amazing last year, but still, that is one year of hard dominance with several more years of fantastic play, where Deion was year after year after year of dominance.

Exactly, by the logic that some of these people use, Julius Peppers is a better DE than Reggie White, because he was better able to drop into pass coverage. Or Seneca Wallace must be better than Johnny Unitas because he can run routes and catch better... Tackling is not a corners job when he is in man. If he has to make a tackle it is because he screwed up and let his guy catch the ball. If he is making tackles at the line when he is in man, it means he let his receiver go and he will get burned on a play action.

someone447
06-03-2007, 05:38 PM
see no matter how good of a COVER cb he was he was not a complete corner....

i hands down say deion was the best COVER cb...but not the best cb of all time

IT WAS NOT HIS ******* JOB!!!! HE DID HIS JOB BETTER THAN ANYONE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!!!! THAT MAKES HIM THE BEST CORNER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!!!

BlindSite
06-03-2007, 05:40 PM
Woodson did it better.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-03-2007, 06:05 PM
Woodson did it better.

No, he didn't.

reese
06-03-2007, 06:19 PM
Yeah, we already established that he faced both of them while at the top of their game. I mentioned the '97 game as an "oh yeah, he also faced him in '97" little afterthought tidbit. I was just furthering the point that Deion and TO belong to the same era. Again, I ask is there any point to your posts other than to falsely claim that Deion played against inferior talent to that of the likes of TO and Moss? Seriously, what are you even saying? It seems as though you've never even seen Deion play, and instead just looked up his bio and mistook the listing of his rookie year as the year he retired. So do us all a favor and take a second look.

no we did not establish that he faced them both in there prime...we established that the ravens played the eagles in 04 and while TO was the eagles no.1 wr...deion was the ravens nickle/third corner....which means they didnt face each other...dont mistake there teams playing one another for the two of them actually mathing up with 1 another...and u brought up a game in moss's second year which always wasnt in moss's prime...and U STILL CANT SEEM TO GET MY POINT....like i said moss and deion and TO all crossed paths in there career but deion never had to cover WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT the types wrs that are in the league now....anyone who watches football and has for awhile knows how much more a gamebreaking wr is saught after now then it was 10 years ago...and again i didnt say deion couldnt do it..i simply asked how ppl thought he would do against the wrs of today....and u have the ignorance enuf to point out 3 games where the teams in question played against 1 another....3 GAMES!!!...im talkin about every week....TO, moss, boldin and fitz, chad johnson, steve smith, roy williams,andre johnson,torry holt,and i could keep goin...i was askin how ppl thought he would against the wrs of today...WOW

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-03-2007, 06:36 PM
no we did not establish that he faced them both in there prime...we established that the ravens played the eagles in 04 and while TO was the eagles no.1 wr...deion was the ravens nickle/third corner....which means they didnt face each other...dont mistake there teams playing one another for the two of them actually mathing up with 1 another...and u brought up a game in moss's second year which always wasnt in moss's prime...and U STILL CANT SEEM TO GET MY POINT....like i said moss and deion and TO all crossed paths in there career but deion never had to cover WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT the types wrs that are in the league now....anyone who watches football and has for awhile knows how much more a gamebreaking wr is saught after now then it was 10 years ago...and again i didnt say deion couldnt do it..i simply asked how ppl thought he would do against the wrs of today....and u have the ignorance enuf to point out 3 games where the teams in question played against 1 another....3 GAMES!!!...im talkin about every week....TO, moss, boldin and fitz, chad johnson, steve smith, roy williams,andre johnson,torry holt,and i could keep goin...i was askin how ppl thought he would against the wrs of today...WOW

Moss still hasn't "learned the game" he was as good then as he ever was, thus, him being in the prime of his career.

Also, as duckseason established, this isn't Madden, the teams #1 CB doesn't go 100% of the time against the opposing #1. Also, even though Deion was the third CB, he didn't cover the slot man. He went outside and one of the other corners moved into the slot.

EDIT: Also, QBs were better as a whole then. Joe Montana, Elway, Marino, Aikman, etc.

reese
06-03-2007, 06:39 PM
Moss still hasn't "learned the game" he was as good then as he ever was, thus, him being in the prime of his career.

Also, as duckseason established, this isn't Madden, the teams #1 CB doesn't go 100% of the time against the opposing #1. Also, even though Deion was the third CB, he didn't cover the slot man. He went outside and one of the other corners moved into the slot.

EDIT: Also, QBs were better as a whole then. Joe Montana, Elway, Marino, Aikman, etc.

well my point about that specific game anyway was deion didnt cover TO...and even tho u might not lock ur corner up on the other teams best wr 100% of the time...when u have a guy like deion or champ u do lock him up with there best wr at least 80% of the time...thats why corners that can run man to man are so valuble cuz ur defense can be alot more flewible when u dont have to give ur corner help

Space Ghost
06-03-2007, 07:28 PM
I only saw Deion live in the later part of his career and I haven't really watched Champ that much either, never was a fan of the Broncos or Redskins and just never bothered watching. I got off the couch more impressed from watching Deion though. Champ Bailey is a hell of a corner, and I value tackling in corners way higher than most, but Deion was the better player from what I've seen. It is kind of pointless to have this debate, debates on defensive players almost never go well, too much homerism, pointless stats, false info and the era argument pretty much makes it pointless.

Denver Bronco99
06-03-2007, 11:11 PM
im sorry but dropping back in zone for a DE is nothing like a CB having to stop the run....

the argument about seneca being able to run routes is also flawed....


tackling is a job description of any defencive player...runing routes is not in a QB's job description




3rd and 4 goal to go....it could be a pass or a run.....would you trust deion outside? i mean it could be a toss or a sweep...would you trust the "BEST CB" of all time to stop it....i wouldt bet my life on it


not saying i would for champ either....but champ is def. a safer bet....and he is great in coverage also

someone447
06-03-2007, 11:47 PM
im sorry but dropping back in zone for a DE is nothing like a CB having to stop the run....

the argument about seneca being able to run routes is also flawed....


tackling is a job description of any defencive player...runing routes is not in a QB's job description




3rd and 4 goal to go....it could be a pass or a run.....would you trust deion outside? i mean it could be a toss or a sweep...would you trust the "BEST CB" of all time to stop it....i wouldt bet my life on it


not saying i would for champ either....but champ is def. a safer bet....and he is great in coverage also

Of course Seneca Wallace running routes is a flawed argument, that was my point. So is Deion HAVING to be good at run support. HE IS IN MAN COVERAGE THE ENTIRE GAME. If he comes off his man to make a tackle, a playaction or a trick play gives up a TD. His job was not to tackle, his job was to cover the guy across from him, to shut down whatever receiver he is on.

The thing you don't seem to understand is Deion wouldn't be in the position to stop a sweep. He would be locked up on his receiver, who I am sure you wouldn't want to leave open in case it is a play action or a trick play, am I correct? On third down inside the 5, a safety and a linebacker will both be in position to make a play on a sweep, well as long as they are good. You are right, I wouldn't trust Deion to make that play, but asking him to make that play is a waste of talent. He would not be a good fit in a Cover 2 defense, but Dick Butkus wouldn't either, Derrick Brooks wouldn't be a good fit in a 3-4 defense. Deion completely shut down whoever he was guarding, that was his sole job, anything else would have been a waste of talent. A corners job in any defense, other than Cover 2, is to defend against the pass. Deion's was even more specialized, because no one in NFL history has had his coverage ability. He was out on an island one on one vs a receiver more than any CB in the history of the game. He excelled at that, his uncanny coverage ability more than makes up for his lack of tackling ability.

I would, without a doubt, take Deion Sanders over any other CB of all time. No defensive back has ever dominated the game like Deion Sanders did. Saying Champ Bailey is better than Deion Sanders is like saying Kobe is better than MJ. Both are utterly laughable, and no sane person who saw both in their primes can make a claim for either Champ or Kobe.

niel89
06-04-2007, 02:03 AM
http://www.vmix.com/view.php?id=124584&current_resourceid=124584&type=video

deion is just too much. he is a legend and while i think champ is flatout amazing at this point deion is on another level. champ needs more years at his current level to be considered

someone447
06-04-2007, 10:30 AM
this continues to be a terrible argument on both sides, but the above bolded bit is realistically, one of the few true things that's been said. deion, at this point, has to be considered a better coverage man, simply because he sustained his play at a higher level for longer. if champ plays like he did last year for several more years, it would be hard for me to believe he won't retire as the better player, but i don't believe a realistic argument can be made off of what basically amounts to a couple of seasons.

regardless, to argue that deion's complete inability to defend the run shouldn't be held against him is ridiculous. he was god awful at it. having bailey playing the run and having deion play the run is the difference between a sweep turning into a touchdown ro being held for a 2 yard gain, and no matter what else the cornerback is doing, that's important. unless you'd rather he continue to cover his man when the running back is 10 yards downfield and you're the last man who can stop him. i mean, better to stick to the receiver and then make a weak attempt at the running back just in case it's a trick play, right?

When the running back is behind the line, yes.

someone447
06-04-2007, 10:51 AM
deion couldn't tackle him anywhere on the field, champ has been able to read play action very well (unless we're going to blame him for cover 2 lapses by ferguson and lynch). that was just a poor argument.

The argument was that he didn't have to tackle. Which he didn't he basically made it a 10 on 10 game.

someone447
06-04-2007, 11:01 AM
except on run plays, during which the receiver didn't even have to pretend to block the corner and could instead focus on cracking a linebacker or going out to get a safety. the sad, simple fact was, deion would only make the tackle about 3.2% of the time, meaning that if the runner did get to his level, it was likely a big gain. and, if i remember my stats, generally speaking, the NFL average for runs vs. passes tend to be right around 50%, give or take a few plays. so 50% of the time, deion would be a complete non-factor in the game, making it an 11 vs 10 game. 50% of the time, he took a single player out of the game, making a 10/10 game. again, i think, at this point in bailey's career, it's bizarre to think that bailey is a better cornerback. but discounting deion's complete ineptitude in the run department is ridiculous. it was and still would be a MAJOR flaw in his game.

If anyone was near equal to his coverage ability, than yes, that would have to be taken into account. But Champ Bailey, Rod Woodson? Come on, no one has been as dominant in covering a receiver over the course of a career than Deion Sanders. Champ did it for one year, and Woodson had more interceptions, of course he had more interceptions, he had many more balls thrown his way. Champ has been in the league for 8 years, and until the past 3 years wasn't even considered the best corner in the league. And not until last year maybe two years ago was he considered hands down, the best corner in the league. Deion was from almost the day he stepped onto the field.

someone447
06-04-2007, 01:33 PM
again, i think deion is a better corner as of right this minute. but it's still dishonest to discount his tackling ability entirely. if bailey keeps up last season's level of play for a few more years, he will have a VERY legitimate argument. if he keeps it up for SEVERAL more seasons, it will be difficult to convince me that deion has an argument. those are certainly big ifs.

I never once said that Champ didn't have the POTENTIAL to be a better corner, I was only saying that in spite of Deions tackling, or lack thereof, he is still the best corner in NFL history, and no one is even close, as of now.

Contr0versy
06-04-2007, 01:52 PM
If anyone was near equal to his coverage ability, than yes, that would have to be taken into account. But Champ Bailey, Rod Woodson? Come on, no one has been as dominant in covering a receiver over the course of a career than Deion Sanders. Champ did it for one year, and Woodson had more interceptions, of course he had more interceptions, he had many more balls thrown his way. Champ has been in the league for 8 years, and until the past 3 years wasn't even considered the best corner in the league. And not until last year maybe two years ago was he considered hands down, the best corner in the league. Deion was from almost the day he stepped onto the field.
:rolleyes:

Contr0versy
06-04-2007, 01:55 PM
I never once said that Champ didn't have the POTENTIAL to be a better corner, I was only saying that in spite of Deions tackling, or lack thereof, he is still the best corner in NFL history, and no one is even close, as of now.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No one even close? Guess you NEVER heard of Mike Haynes or Rod Woodson in their primes. . .

Denver Bronco99
06-04-2007, 01:55 PM
If anyone was near equal to his coverage ability, than yes, that would have to be taken into account. But Champ Bailey, Rod Woodson? Come on, no one has been as dominant in covering a receiver over the course of a career than Deion Sanders. Champ did it for one year, and Woodson had more interceptions, of course he had more interceptions, he had many more balls thrown his way. Champ has been in the league for 8 years, and until the past 3 years wasn't even considered the best corner in the league. And not until last year maybe two years ago was he considered hands down, the best corner in the league. Deion was from almost the day he stepped onto the field.

champ has been considered the best for way more then 1 year...i would say the last 2 years on the redskins and then all of them with the broncos he was def. considered the best..so thats 5+ years of being the best...what he is doing now though is just play some of the best DB we have seen since the mid 90's

someone447
06-04-2007, 02:08 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No one even close? Guess you NEVER heard of Mike Haynes or Rod Woodson in their primes. . .

I've went over Rod Woodson, yes, he was great, no, he was not on Deion's level, read the rest of the thread.

duckseason
06-04-2007, 02:40 PM
champ has been considered the best for way more then 1 year...i would say the last 2 years on the redskins and then all of them with the broncos he was def. considered the best..so thats 5+ years of being the best...what he is doing now though is just play some of the best DB we have seen since the mid 90's

You must have forgot about Ty Law.

someone447
06-04-2007, 03:00 PM
You must have forgot about Ty Law.

Or Chris Mcalister, until the past maybe 2 years, Champ Bailey was not considered far and away the best corner. Deion always was, of course there is that very small minority who thinks Rod Woodson was better, but they were Steelers fans. You guys have to remember, Woodson played safety the last 7 years of his career, a position where it is easier to make interceptions.

Contr0versy
06-04-2007, 03:02 PM
I've went over Rod Woodson, yes, he was great, no, he was not on Deion's level, read the rest of the thread.A lot of people thought he was. I mean, some even considered him BETTER than Deion. He made the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (Why didn't Deion make that team?) and was considered the best NFL corner in the league from '90 - '94 before he tore his ACL.

For you to say the only reason Woodson has more career INT's than Deion is because he had more balls coming to his side of the field tells me that you're being bias and totally dismissing Rod's ability to read the QB/Plays and interrupt them. Woodson's ability to read the QB was far superior than that of Deion's. The majority of Woodson's (In his prime at CB) INT's came from him stepping in front of a receiver and picking off a perfectly thrown pass due to his ability to read the play, while a great number of Deion's INT's came from bad, over/under thrown passes. While Deion may have been slightly (and I do mean "slightly") better than Woodson in coverage, Rod was a much better CB than Deion.

You're making it seem like Deion was just head & shoulders over everyone at the CB position and that's hilarious.

duckseason
06-04-2007, 03:06 PM
A lot of people thought he was. I mean, some even considered him BETTER than Deion. He made the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (Why didn't Deion make that team?)
Because it was created in 1994 and was mostly comprised of greats from the distant past. Rod was the youngest player on that team.

someone447
06-04-2007, 03:07 PM
A lot of people thought he was. I mean, some even considered him BETTER than Deion. He made the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (Why didn't Deion make that team?) and was considered the best NFL corner in the league from '90 - '94 before he tore his ACL.

For you to say the only reason Woodson has more career INT's than Deion is because he had more balls coming to his side of the field tells me that you're being bias and totally dismissing Rod's ability to read the QB/Plays and interrupt them. Woodson's ability to read the QB was far superior than that of Deion's. The majority of Woodson's (In his prime at CB) INT's came from him stepping in front of a receiver and picking off a perfectly thrown pass due to his ability to read the play, while a great number of Deion's INT's came from bad, over/under thrown passes. While Deion may have been slightly (and I do mean "slightly") better than Woodson in coverage, Rod was a much better CB than Deion.

You're making it seem like Deion was just head & shoulders over everyone at the CB position and that's hilarious.

He was head and shoulders above anyone else at the cornerback position. Only people who are steelers fans and people who dislike Deion say he is better. How about the fact that Deion was only in the league 5 years before the 75th anniversary team was announced? Woodson had been in it for 7.

Woodson also had a large number of interceptions when he was playing safety.

Oh, by the way, I like your name; it's fun to play the devil's advocate, isn't it?

Contr0versy
06-04-2007, 03:28 PM
of course there is that very small minority who thinks Rod Woodson was better, but they were Steelers fans. You guys have to remember, Woodson played safety the last 7 years of his career, a position where it is easier to make interceptions.Yeah, but Woodson had 41 INT's at the CB position before switching to the Safety position in '98 with the Ravens. Keep in mind that he also missed the entire '95 season with a torn ACL, and never was the same player after that. Even so, he still had 41 INT's at the CB position.

Now Deion has 53 INT's throughout his entire career, which spanned 15 years. Rod has 41 INT's in a span of 8 years (I'm knockin' off two years due to his injury in '95 and the fact that he didn't play his rookie year as a CB; he was used mainly as a return specialist). Having said that, I think it's safe to say that had he not gotten injured in '95, he STILL would've had MORE INT's than Deion at the CB position. And that's simply because of his great ability to read plays before they happened. So really, it wouldn't have made a difference if he stayed at CB or moved to Safety, Woodson still would've picked off more passes than Deion because he could read plays way better. . .

Contr0versy
06-04-2007, 03:37 PM
Because it was created in 1994 and was mostly comprised of greats from the distant past. Rod was the youngest player on that team.I don't get it. What does that have to do with anything? In '94, Deion & Rod, statistically, were neck and neck. Though Woodson had been in the league longer by two years, he didn't play much his rookie year except on special teams. Deion, on the other hand, had a GREAT rookie season. So around the time Woodson started breaking out as a shut down CB, Deion was already making a name for himself as well. I doubt that the two year period made a big difference in their selection process. I think their style of play had much more to do with it than the amount of years they've been in the league. . .

Contr0versy
06-04-2007, 03:41 PM
He was head and shoulders above anyone else at the cornerback position. Only people who are steelers fans and people who dislike Deion say he is better. How about the fact that Deion was only in the league 5 years before the 75th anniversary team was announced? Woodson had been in it for 7. See my post above.

Woodson also had a large number of interceptions when he was playing safety.Again, see my post above.

Oh, by the way, I like your name; it's fun to play the devil's advocate, isn't it?Yessir! I'm not a steelers fan, tho. :p

someone447
06-04-2007, 03:55 PM
See my post above.

Again, see my post above.

Yessir! I'm not a steelers fan, tho. :p

The 2 years did make a difference.

He switched his last year in Pit, 1997. I guess you don't understand that teams went GAMES without being thrown towards. It is kind of hard to get interceptions when you don't get balls thrown your way. Like it or not, that is a legitimate argument, Woodson got a lot more balls thrown his way, teams didn't throw his way often, but more so than they did Deion.

No, like I said, you are playing Devil's Advocate. Which means you are arguing for the sake of arguing, not because you believe Woodson is actually better.

Because if you did actually believe that, I think that you could come up with better arguments than just stats, because stats don't tell anything about a cornerback.

someone447
06-04-2007, 03:57 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No one even close? Guess you NEVER heard of Mike Haynes or Rod Woodson in their primes. . .

You aren't a steelers fan, yet you just happen to name 2 Steelers? Mel Blount would have been a much better argument.

Denver Bronco99
06-04-2007, 05:31 PM
"Because quarterbacks generally avoid throwing in the direction of Bailey, at least if they know what's good for them, no defender in the NFL gets fewer chances for big, game-altering plays than the Denver Broncos' seven-time Pro Bowl cornerback. And no defender makes more of his chances to have an impact on a game. At a position where it's difficult to dominate, he does. He is the top cornerback in the league by a wide margin. Perhaps wider than any No. 1 player at any position. Blessed with incredible instincts and great hands, Bailey tied for the NFL high in 2006 with 10 interceptions and has 18 of his 39 career pickoffs the last two seasons. Just how good is that? There are eight modern-era cornerbacks in the Hall of Fame and none ever had more than 17 interceptions over a two-season stretch. To go along with his 18 interceptions, three of which were returned for touchdowns, Bailey has 26 of his 97 career passes defensed the past two years. Again, this from a player who isn't thrown at very often. Remember, cornerback is a more passive position than just about any other spot on defense. You've either got to have the ball thrown in your area, or go out of your way to make a big play. Bailey is also a stout defender versus the run, as demonstrated by the fact he has averaged 70 tackles per season. At 28, Bailey hasn't lost a step and could be headed to the Hall of Fame. "

this is from ESPN....he had 2 out of the 4 votes for best Defencive player

someone447
06-04-2007, 05:42 PM
"Because quarterbacks generally avoid throwing in the direction of Bailey, at least if they know what's good for them, no defender in the NFL gets fewer chances for big, game-altering plays than the Denver Broncos' seven-time Pro Bowl cornerback. And no defender makes more of his chances to have an impact on a game. At a position where it's difficult to dominate, he does. He is the top cornerback in the league by a wide margin. Perhaps wider than any No. 1 player at any position. Blessed with incredible instincts and great hands, Bailey tied for the NFL high in 2006 with 10 interceptions and has 18 of his 39 career pickoffs the last two seasons. Just how good is that? There are eight modern-era cornerbacks in the Hall of Fame and none ever had more than 17 interceptions over a two-season stretch. To go along with his 18 interceptions, three of which were returned for touchdowns, Bailey has 26 of his 97 career passes defensed the past two years. Again, this from a player who isn't thrown at very often. Remember, cornerback is a more passive position than just about any other spot on defense. You've either got to have the ball thrown in your area, or go out of your way to make a big play. Bailey is also a stout defender versus the run, as demonstrated by the fact he has averaged 70 tackles per season. At 28, Bailey hasn't lost a step and could be headed to the Hall of Fame. "

this is from ESPN....he had 2 out of the 4 votes for best Defencive player

I've already acknowledged that teams throw away from bailey, just not to the extent that they threw away from Sanders.

I've also said that he has the POTENTIAL to be better than Sanders, but as of now, his career is not better than Sanders. Which means he isn't a better player.

Denver Bronco99
06-04-2007, 05:48 PM
I've already acknowledged that teams throw away from bailey, just not to the extent that they threw away from Sanders.

I've also said that he has the POTENTIAL to be better than Sanders, but as of now, his career is not better than Sanders. Which means he isn't a better player.

an you know what this is where im done arguing because this is truthfull....right now he doesnt have enought stats at 8 years to be better then sanders.....and at 14 or how ever many sanders has he might....but i will say this....if i was building a team sanders at 8 years and bailey at 8....i would take bailey.....he is a more complete player


do i agree that sanders is a better Cover man...yes...i dont agree he is a more complete player...nor do i think he is better then woodson

niel89
06-04-2007, 05:54 PM
again, i think deion is a better corner as of right this minute. but it's still dishonest to discount his tackling ability entirely. if bailey keeps up last season's level of play for a few more years, he will have a VERY legitimate argument. if he keeps it up for SEVERAL more seasons, it will be difficult to convince me that deion has an argument. those are certainly big ifs.

i fully agree with this. champ just needs more time, he is phenomenal right now and with more time he will be considered with the all time greats. i think its just too hard first to compare between eras and also because not very many of us have really seen enough game film of each to make a true comparison.


theres a phrase about deion tackling, "His hands touched nothing but leather."

someone447
06-04-2007, 07:25 PM
i fully agree with this. champ just needs more time, he is phenomenal right now and with more time he will be considered with the all time greats. i think its just too hard first to compare between eras and also because not very many of us have really seen enough game film of each to make a true comparison.


theres a phrase about deion tackling, "His hands touched nothing but leather."

Now a quote from Deion about tackling, "Show me a corner who can tackle, and I will show you a corner who can't cover."

You have to realize that Champ took 8 years to reach the level he is at, he won't improve anymore, and he turns 29 in like 2 weeks. Woodson moved to safety at 32 and Sanders started going downhill at 30-31.

So saying that Champ needs years more at the level he played this year is unlikely. 30 tends to be the expiration date of NFL players.

Denver Bronco99
06-04-2007, 10:13 PM
Now a quote from Deion about tackling, "Show me a corner who can tackle, and I will show you a corner who can't cover."

You have to realize that Champ took 8 years to reach the level he is at, he won't improve anymore, and he turns 29 in like 2 weeks. Woodson moved to safety at 32 and Sanders started going downhill at 30-31.

So saying that Champ needs years more at the level he played this year is unlikely. 30 tends to be the expiration date of NFL players.

champ is def. not about to go down hill...he is in prime...he will have 3-5 more great year...watch

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-04-2007, 10:20 PM
Eh, I'm not so sure he isn't on his downward path. We're really lucky Cutler appears to have a quick learning curve, cuz while we have young weapons on offense, a lot of our team is gearing up for a run in the next couple of years. If we don't take it in the next 3, we'll need to wait a while.

johbur
06-06-2007, 11:43 PM
This is a no contest type thing, unless you think Champ is a Hall of Famer? Deion changed the game when he was in, not just on defense but special teams, has the rings, the DPOY accolade and was a dominating player in his era.

someone447
06-07-2007, 12:01 AM
This is a no contest type thing, unless you think Champ is a Hall of Famer? Deion changed the game when he was in, not just on defense but special teams, has the rings, the DPOY accolade and was a dominating player in his era.

Champ will be a hall of famer, but I still think it is no contest.

Green Bay Scat
06-07-2007, 12:06 AM
Ronde Barber?

VYTitans
06-07-2007, 09:55 AM
Alright so I may be ignorant but I have been reading alot of people saying that Bailey's name doesn't belong near Deion's but all of you are christening Calvin Johnson as the next Jerry Rice and maybe even better than Jerry rice, but in reality CJ shouldn't mentioned in the same day as Jerry Rice. And Bailey really is an amazing player he plays against some of the toughest recievers out there. Also we can't include Special Teams or Offense, because this conversation is about the best Cornerback which means defense which yes, it includes tackling, so my vote is for Bailey.

someone447
06-07-2007, 10:18 AM
Alright so I may be ignorant but I have been reading alot of people saying that Bailey's name doesn't belong near Deion's but all of you are christening Calvin Johnson as the next Jerry Rice and maybe even better than Jerry rice, but in reality CJ shouldn't mentioned in the same day as Jerry Rice. And Bailey really is an amazing player he plays against some of the toughest recievers out there. Also we can't include Special Teams or Offense, because this conversation is about the best Cornerback which means defense which yes, it includes tackling, so my vote is for Bailey.

No knowledgeable person has said anything about Calvin Johnson being the next Jerry Rice. Just like no knowledgeable person would say that Bailey is better than Deion at this time.

dre1614
06-09-2007, 08:35 AM
Here is a interesting stat.

Champ already has more tackles than Deion, and has been in the league 6 less years but...............

Only has 3 FF

Deion has 10!!! his first 8 seasons he had 8.


anyways

IMO i don't see how this is comparable. Deion is better then Champ in every single category except tackling.

Ball Skills - Deion
Speed - Deion
Hands - Deion
Acceleration - Deion
Return Skills - Deion

I mean its not even comparable IMO

Deion is winning this poll 2 to 1 but should be winning it by at least 4 to 1 or more.

I would like to see the ages who voted. I bet the majority who have voted for Champ has never watched Deion's whole career.

LonghornsLegend
06-12-2007, 04:38 PM
I cant believe champ got so many votes....we are talking about deion sanders right? just look at his contribution on special teams that he made, both were excellent cover corners but champ has gotten beat FAR more then deion ever did....


and its not like their werent dominant WR's during those years either...id give the edge to champ in tackling, but thats it, deion wins out in every other aspect of corner, and i cant really ever remember teams challenging him and throwing to his side until he turned into a nickel corner, for some time teams were going after champ, CJ worked him more then a few times in man to man coverage, not really a knock because CJ is arguably a top 5 WR, but champ bailey is not deion sanders

BufFan71
06-12-2007, 04:51 PM
Champ b/c he can cover, and tackle