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Glenn Dorsey, 3-4 NT?

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  • Glenn Dorsey, 3-4 NT?

    What's your opinion on playing him there? Don't say "it's taking him away from what he does best". That's so weak and generic. Be specific.

  • #2
    well, the last time the top DT in the draft was moved to 3-4 DE, he was a bust...know who im talking about? travis johnson. he's flourishing back in the 4-3. just an example.

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    • #3
      He'd obviously be best in a 4-3. But, he's a monster on the DLine, no matter what scheme. As for a 3-4 DE, I think he's a bit short. He can handle double teams and take up space, though. You might as well put him at NT. But in this case, you must use the "It's taking him away from what he does best," argument, since he demands 2 OL's on him at a time and would free up everyone else on the DLine.
      Still Team The Ke$ha!!!

      [@TDWinstead]
      Originally posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
      Damn Ke$ha is sexy.

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      • #4
        hes way too valuable as a 4-3 pass rushing DT then 3-4 DE where i dont think he would get very many sacks

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        • #5
          Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
          What's your opinion on playing him there? Don't say "it's taking him away from what he does best". That's so weak and generic. Be specific.
          it's taking him away from what he does best.

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          • #6
            He plays a one-gap scheme at LSU. He shouldn't have a problem with the 3 tech. I think he holds some value...but obviously not as much as just a pure tampa 2 DT. I just don't think by the time his value comes around as a 3-4 DE that he will be on the board to select anyways...moot point imo

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TitanHope View Post
              He'd obviously be best in a 4-3. But, he's a monster on the DLine, no matter what scheme. As for a 3-4 DE, I think he's a bit short. He can handle double teams and take up space, though. You might as well put him at NT. But in this case, you must use the "It's taking him away from what he does best," argument, since he demands 2 OL's on him at a time and would free up everyone else on the DLine.
              Actually, a 3-4 NT might not be the worst idea, if he's used in a one gap 3-4 scheme like Dallas has.

              I think I love that idea!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BrownsTown View Post
                it's taking him away from what he does best.
                Weak and generic.

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                • #9
                  I think Glen Dorsey could be alright in a 3-4 at DE. But that would be like putting Tommie Harris or Warren Sapp in a 3-4....he'd be a good and solid DE, but he'd be an all-pro as a DT in a 4-3.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                    Actually, a 3-4 NT might not be the worst idea, if he's used in a one gap 3-4 scheme like Dallas has.

                    I think I love that idea!
                    He would be more effective at DE. Playing him at the NT leaves you succeptable to the intermidate middle. You have to help him by playing your inside backers closer to the line of scrimmage. I don't think it's a good idea for a team using the 3-4 to take him in the top half of the draft if this is how he is going to be used. He simply doesn't have the value needed to be selected that high in the 3-4.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thule View Post
                      He would be more effective at DE. Playing him at the NT leaves you succeptable to the intermidate middle. You have to help him by playing your inside backers closer to the line of scrimmage. I don't think it's a good idea for a team using the 3-4 to take him in the top half of the draft if this is how he is going to be used. He simply doesn't have the value needed to be selected that high in the 3-4.
                      Why would it leave you susceptible? He's more of a run stuffing tackle than a penetrating one. He's used to double teams. He's extremely strong. If he's not doubled, he'll penetrate the backfield. It's that easy. The last thing he is, is a liability in run defense.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                        Why would it leave you susceptible? He's more of a run stuffing tackle than a penetrating one. He's used to double teams. He's extremely strong. If he's not doubled, he'll penetrate the backfield. It's that easy. The last thing he is, is a liability in run defense.
                        As a cowboys fan I would expect more from you.

                        Think about this...a NT in the 3-4 one gap scheme is lined up usually as the 1 tech. Now depending on the SS is which should the NT will line up on. Well if a team wants to run at the weak side....you can easily pinch the NT out of the picture because it is not his gap responsibility. With your DE in the 3 tech...now your gaurd also has the angle and leverage to create a hole. With you ILB's playing at regulare depth you have to fill the hole right away. In doing so you give up the middle. This is huge for playaction in which the LB has to fill because if he doesn't it's a huge gain. This leaves you basically playing one LB in the middle...But he also likely bites on the playaction because he knows if the FB comes and gets on your backer it's his responsibility to keep it to a minimal gain.

                        So this is the basic problem. With a bigger NT in the one gap scheme...aka Williams in SD although he is shooting the strongside gap he still has the mass to keep the hole on the weak side minimum. If you get a guy a little smaller you have to keep your ILB's up so that if it is a run they are in position to make the play. They aren't forced to jump on playaction because they are essentially 2-3 yards from the LOS after the snap anyways. But the main difference is...depth. With a bigger NT you can keep your backers back.

                        The thing is there is nothing that is set or standard. You could slant him as a NT stunt him with the DE or even play him on the weakside of the center. Bottomline is with a smaller NT in the one-gap scheme your ILB's take a lot more heat....and if a team goes playaction and you fail to get pressure you are going to see alot of stuff in the middle.

                        TO go even further into this you could play a robber coverage and play your safety in the void of your ILB"s but now your leaving your Safety out to dry because he has deep coverage and has to be careful not to commit to a side because he is last line of defense.

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                        • #13
                          Maybe I'm confused. The Glenn Dorsey I'm talking about is the big one. The one with tree trunk legs that can drive a MAC truck backwards. The one that can control a lineman with one arm and dive and still get to the runner. Dorsey's got that wide base combined with strength and agility to control the gaps. Weight isn't an issue because that's probably the easiest thing for a player to control. I don't think mass is a problem of his. He's got the frame to put on more and still maintain all of his nastiness.



                          Yes, he is not 330+ pounds, but in a 1 gap 3-4 scheme, the NT doesn't have to be as big as he does in a 2 gap 3-4 scheme. Your explanation still sounded like the role of a 2 gap NT. Our scheme is attacking. The DL are more responsible for making plays in the backfield and at the LOS than in Parcells' gap control scheme where the LBs are responsible for making plays. Phillips' 3-4 is not so reliant on gap control. You know that. We lined up 6 men on the DL against Chicago to stuff their run. It's all about scheming. Dorsey can control the A Gap with ease. Once he commands the attention of both the Center and Guard, that opens up things for the rest of the front 7. If not, Dorsey has the ability to control his blocker and make the play whether run or pass.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                            Maybe I'm confused. The Glenn Dorsey I'm talking about is the big one. The one with tree trunk legs that can drive a MAC truck backwards. The one that can control a lineman with one arm and dive and still get to the runner. Dorsey's got that wide base combined with strength and agility to control the gaps. Weight isn't an issue because that's probably the easiest thing for a player to control. I don't think mass is a problem of his. He's got the frame to put on more and still maintain all of his nastiness.



                            Yes, he is not 330+ pounds, but in a 1 gap 3-4 scheme, the NT doesn't have to be as big as he does in a 2 gap 3-4 scheme. Your explanation still sounded like the role of a 2 gap NT. Our scheme is attacking. The DL are more responsible for making plays in the backfield and at the LOS than in Parcells' gap control scheme where the LBs are responsible for making plays. Phillips' 3-4 is not so reliant on gap control. You know that. We lined up 6 men on the DL against Chicago to stuff their run. It's all about scheming. Dorsey can control the A Gap with ease. Once he commands the attention of both the Center and Guard, that opens up things for the rest of the front 7. If not, Dorsey has the ability to control his blocker and make the play whether run or pass.
                            There is a distinct difference between taking double teams in the NFL and taking them in college. The physical ability needed to withstand being double blocked is completely different. Dorsey is physically superior to almost every linemen he will play in college. In the NFL, he's just another player and there will be plenty of linemen who are bigger and stronger than him. That's why you normally see big guys like Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, etc. playing the nose in the NFL. You need a guy who can bench press those big linemen off of them and close holes in the middle of the line.

                            What a guy can do in college is completely different than what they will be able to do in the NFL. That's why measurables are so important. I'm expecting Dorsey to come into the NFL at less than 300 pounds and I just don't see a player of that stature making an effective NT in the NFL.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Moses View Post
                              There is a distinct difference between taking double teams in the NFL and taking them in college. The physical ability needed to withstand being double blocked is completely different. Dorsey is physically superior to almost every linemen he will play in college. In the NFL, he's just another player and there will be plenty of linemen who are bigger and stronger than him. That's why you normally see big guys like Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, etc. playing the nose in the NFL. You need a guy who can bench press those big linemen off of them and close holes in the middle of the line.

                              What a guy can do in college is completely different than what they will be able to do in the NFL. That's why measurables are so important. I'm expecting Dorsey to come into the NFL at less than 300 pounds and I just don't see a player of that stature making an effective NT in the NFL.
                              I don't expect Dorsey to dominate the NFL like he does in college right away, but the transition should be easier for him because of his talent. The key you said was if he does weigh in below 300. That is probably right. It would have to take a pretty big interview by a team wanting him to play NT to find out if he'd be willing to play that role. I think he could do it, but if he's not the type willing to do it, then he would be a bad pick. It takes a certain mentality to play the position. NT is still an interior defensive line position, so it's not a rocket science move to make. Dorsey is two biscuits away from being ideal. Jason Ferguson played in Parcells' 2 gap scheme at 6'3", 305.

                              While I agree bigger makes it more ideal, there are exceptions to the rule.

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