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  • If the Chiefs go OT...

    First off,let me say that im a KC Chiefs fan...To me its very simple for us this draft..Take Berry or trade down! BUT,I have this feeling that we are gonna take an OT (T.Williams or Bulaga) and put them at RT this year. And mabey switch them over to the leftside if B.Albert struggles.And in my personal opinion..that is beyond crazy. We went out and upgraded our interior line via FA with R.lilja and C.wiegmann.So,i dont see Albert going back to guard anytime soon. So,the only thing I can see them doing is keeping him at LT and drafting a RT. And like I said,perhaps switching them around.

    That would mean,that for the last three years in a row. We would have used our top five picks and selected two five-technique DE's (Low value for a top 5 five pick) and a RT (VERY low value for a pick that high) If that happens..thats a joke! We would have to be the first team in the history of football,to get that little of value out of three top 5 picks in a row. While other teams are feeling those positions with second and third rounders.We are not only using first round picks. We are using top 5 picks! Gotta be kidding.

    What a waste that would be! If we wanted to take a tackle,we could have got a damm "LT" last year.But passed instead. Who passes on a LT last year,for a RT this year. And then reaches on a five-technique DE,when we could get one as good as T.jackson in this years SECOND ROUND. (Joseph,Price,ect)

    I say all that to say this. I hear people say all the time "why take a safety this high". "its bad value". Cant be much worse then a five-technique or a RT.So,when it come too the Chiefs...Dont tell me about value at all. And with all that said.....Gooooo Chiefs!!! lol

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
    First off,let me say that im a KC Chiefs fan...To me its very simple for us this draft..Take Berry or trade down! BUT,I have this feeling that we are gonna take an OT (T.Williams or Bulaga) and put them at RT this year. And mabey switch them over to the leftside if B.Albert struggles.And in my personal opinion..that is beyond crazy. We went out and upgraded our interior line via FA with R.lilja and C.wiegmann.So,i dont see Albert going back to guard anytime soon. So,the only thing I can see them doing is keeping him at LT and drafting a RT. And like I said,perhaps switching them around.

    That would mean,that for the last three years in a row. We would have used our top five picks and selected two five-technique DE's (Low value for a top 5 five pick) and a RT (VERY low value for a pick that high) If that happens..thats a joke! We would have to be the first team in the history of football,to get that little of value out of three top 5 picks in a row. While other teams are feeling those positions with second and third rounders.We are not only using first round picks. We are using top 5 picks! Gotta be kidding.

    What a waste that would be! If we wanted to take a tackle,we could have got a damm "LT" last year.But passed instead. Who passes on a LT last year,for a RT this year. And then reaches on a five-technique DE,when we could get one as good as T.jackson in this years SECOND ROUND. (Joseph,Price,ect)

    I say all that to say this. I hear people say all the time "why take a safety this high". "its bad value". Cant be much worse then a five-technique or a RT.So,when it come too the Chiefs...Dont tell me about value at all. And with all that said.....Gooooo Chiefs!!! lol
    And you think the value of safety is higher??? Basically 34 defenses can do nothing if their defensive line can't do their job. At the hieight of their career if you offered me Richard Seymour or Ed Reed im taking Seymour, simply because it is irrelevant how good your secondary is if you cant generate pressure. How many good 34 defenses are there that dont have good defensive lines?

    Pittsburgh have Keisel, Smith and Hampton
    Baltimore have Ngata, Gregg and Pryce
    Dallas have Spears, Ratliff and Olshanksy
    The Patriots a few years ago had Seymour, Wilfork and Warren

    The best safety of all time can be gameplanned against to limit his effectiveness. Good luck gameplanning against that Baltimore defensive line etc.

    You also mention about safety. If Pioli valued safety that highly why did he cut Bernard Pollard to leave such a gaping hole. He played pretty well for the Texans last year.

    As for RT. The value of a RT is increasing every year due to the increase of athletic pass rushers and the increase of teams using the 34. Using the Colts as an example of a team with 2 great pass rushers-Dwight Freeney has 32.5 sacks in the last 4 years from the RE spot. Had it not been for injury this total would have been a lot higher. Obviously your LT has to be extremely good to nullify his threat. Robert Mathis 37.5 sacks in the last 4 years from the LE going against RTs.

    This shows you cant play teams like the Colts, Steelers etc who have two premier outside rushers if you just decide to pick your RT up in the 4th or 5th round. In the Patriots/Colts game last year Sebastian Vollmer done as good a job as Ive seen in a long time against Dwight Freeney where he limited him to 0TKL, 0 sacks. Robert Mathis absolutely raped Nick Kaczur for 6TKL, 2 sacks and a forced fumble.

    The 34 defense has become so popular because a lot of times the offensive line doesn't know where the pressure is coming from. If a defensive genius like Dick LeBeau or Rex Ryan sees a team with a good LT but an RT do you really think they're not going to be able to exploit that?

    That is a general arguement for the increased value of a RT. IMO for the Chiefs the value should be a lot higher. Scott Pioli has put all his eggs in Matt Cassel's basket. His success as a GM for the Chiefs probably lies on Cassel's shoulders. Cassel is getting more than $10m a year to be the Chiefs QB. Is he worth it?? Almost certainly not however after giving him all the guaranteed money he got, the Chiefs have no choice but to give him as good a chance as possibility. This includes getting better blocking up front and better receiving options.

    I think the pickup of Lilja was a good move however the offensive line is still not good. Looking at the O-line

    LT-Brandon Albert by all accounts played well towards the end of the season however I think you'd struggle to find anyone who wouldn't admit he would be a much better guard.
    LG-Brian Waters is a very good guard however he is now 33
    C-Casey Wiegmann will probably be ther starter but he will start the season at 37
    RG-Ryan Lilja. As I mentioned I think Lilja is a good pick up but he is never going to be confused for Steve Hutchinson
    RT-Ryan O'Callaghan. On paper this guy should be a monster. But as a Patriots fan believe me when I say he is not. He got cut by the Patriots because he couldnt beat out Nick Kaczur who is probably one of the worst RTs in the league.

    Most successful teams will build on the philosphy that you win by having, first of all, your franchise QB. The Chiefs got Cassel and paid him all that money so they must believe he is that. Then the next step is to build through the trenches.

    Baltimore for example have Joe Flacco and the defensive line I mentioned earlier. They also had one of the better offensive lines in the league but yet they still drafted Michael Oher. The value is building through the lines.

    The NYJ have the best offensive line in football and an extremely good defensive line.

    The only exception I can think of of a team who is very successful despite not going by this philosophy is the Colts.


    BoneKrusher killing it with the sig

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
      First off,let me say that im a KC Chiefs fan...To me its very simple for us this draft..
      welcome to the forum then...

      Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
      Take Berry or trade down! BUT,I have this feeling that we are gonna take an OT (T.Williams or Bulaga) and put them at RT this year. And maybe switch them over to the left side if B.Albert struggles.And in my personal opinion..that is beyond crazy. We went out and upgraded our interior line via FA with R.lilja and C.wiegmann.So,i dont see Albert going back to guard anytime soon. So,the only thing I can see them doing is keeping him at LT and drafting a RT. And like I said,perhaps switching them around.
      Well Brandon has struggled on the left side, it does make sense for he Chiefs to cut their losses and move him to left guard, his natural position, otherwise Albert will become the next Leonard Davis.
      Also, Wiegmann is really getting up there in years (36) so he's by no means a long-term solution. Lilja might be younger at 29, but has an injury history and there's rumors of him failing a recent physical just before the colts cut him: find it right here. So there are still some issues on that O-line. I'm sure you'll agree that generally the OL is more important to get right than the safety position, especially considering the contract that Cassell has.

      Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
      That would mean,that for the last three years in a row. We would have used our top five picks and selected two five-technique DE's (Low value for a top 5 five pick) and a RT (VERY low value for a pick that high) If that happens..thats a joke!
      I kindly refer you to the Milen era of the Detroit Lions. Tyson Jackson wasn't a flashy pick, but it was a huge need. Also you're forgetting the Dorsey pick which was a great one at the time, at least. And to draft a RT or top LG with the 15th overall pick is no shame. Really I think you're overreacting.

      Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
      We would have to be the first team in the history of football,to get that little of value out of three top 5 picks in a row. While other teams are feeling those positions with second and third rounders.We are not only using first round picks. We are using top 5 picks! Gotta be kidding.
      This is absolutely false. Albert wasn't a top 5 pick to begin with, Dorsey and Jackson are both starters on your defensive line and if you were to draft Bulaga or Trent Williams he too would probably start on your O-line. To say that that is no value is just wrong and to claim its the worst result ever for three top 5 picks in a row is just factually incorrect.

      Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
      What a waste that would be! If we wanted to take a tackle,we could have got a damm "LT" last year.But passed instead. Who passes on a LT last year,for a RT this year. And then reaches on a five-technique DE,when we could get one as good as T.jackson in this years SECOND ROUND. (Joseph,Price,ect)
      Last year it wasn't clear if Albert could be a LT, now it is. Hindsight is 20/20. And again, Jackson was a solid prospect and a very good need pick. And a better DE prospect than Price and Linvall Joseph, I might add.

      Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
      I say all that to say this. I hear people say all the time "why take a safety this high". "its bad value". Cant be much worse then a five-technique or a RT.So,when it come too the Chiefs...Dont tell me about value at all. And with all that said.....Gooooo Chiefs!!! lol
      Like I said, you're mistaken on the value of those picks, and overreacting when it comes to the whole RT/LG situation. You seem to be under the impression that Brandon Albert was a top 5 pick while he was the 15th overall selection and your entire argument is based on hindsight. Not to say that you're wrong about Berry, you might be right entirely, but the arguments you use don't hold up.

      Again, welcome to the forum ;)

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      • #4
        i imagine if they draft Bulaga/Williams then they might start off as a right tackle, but the intention would to be for them to become the blindside protector with Albert moving to the strongside or even left guard eventually. Taking 2 DLs in a row in the top 5 should have absolute zero impact on whether they take a safety or tackle this year.

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        • #5
          I will say this one more time: drafting Bulaga/Williams/Okung would be ok. But Albert is further along in the process than any of thsoe three for being the blindside protector for another 10 years.
          Last edited by bored of education; 04-11-2010, 12:02 PM.
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          <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
          <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
          <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
          Originally posted by Hermstheman83
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          • #6
            Actually, Antoin, you would find me who insists that Albert is a much better tackle than guard in the league. He is not a big wide body like Leonard Davis, he wouldn't be able to anchor against bigger defensive tackles the way Davis can. Albert has a tackle's body. Simple as that.

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            • #7
              i think it's a matter of giving up like 43 or however many sacks last year with Albert manning the blindside and not solidifying his spot. I remember a lot of Browns fans said taking Joe Thomas didn't make as much sense as taking Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn at #3 overall b/c we had just signed Kevin Shaffer to a monster contract the year before in free agency. If you have Bulaga/Williams and Albert at tackles then you're set at tackle for a long time just like Miami is with Long and Carey....QB protection is not gonna be a problem. It might be hard to pass up on a supreme talent like Eric Berry, but if they do then the reason for doing it (fixing the OLine) isn't a bad reason.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AntoinCD View Post
                Pittsburgh have Keisel, Smith and Hampton
                Baltimore have Ngata, Gregg and Pryce
                Dallas have Spears, Ratliff and Olshanksy
                The Patriots a few years ago had Seymour, Wilfork and Warren

                I agree with everything else you said, but you could of left us off of these examples, if anything it proves his point.


                Spears is a JAG, and while he was a top 15 pick, his play is nothing better then a 4th-6th rounder and he has little to no affect on how well our defense has played. In comparison, Stephen Bowen was undrafted, and has easily outplayed Spears and is making more money then him, even though Spears was a top 15 pick, which I think makes his point for him about taking those types of players top 5.



                Igor really isn't anything special either, he's just incredibly strong and can hold the point of attack which is all you really ask, he was a bargain FA acquisition that SD didn't feel they needed to keep.


                I agree that you need a D-line to have a great 3-4 defense, but I'd agree with him in that I'd be pretty upset at taking a DE top 5 because if you look around that position is pretty easily filled late in the draft or with better value.





                Originally posted by Scott Wright
                I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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                • #9
                  Dallas' 3-4 is a single gap front so it's a lot different when comparing it to teams like New England and PIttsburgh. Ratliff is an all-pro DT though while Spear and Olshansky play the run well. Wade Phillips can coach some defense.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mr16 View Post
                    First off,let me say that im a KC Chiefs fan...To me its very simple for us this draft..Take Berry or trade down! BUT,I have this feeling that we are gonna take an OT (T.Williams or Bulaga) and put them at RT this year. And mabey switch them over to the leftside if B.Albert struggles.And in my personal opinion..that is beyond crazy. We went out and upgraded our interior line via FA with R.lilja and C.wiegmann.So,i dont see Albert going back to guard anytime soon. So,the only thing I can see them doing is keeping him at LT and drafting a RT. And like I said,perhaps switching them around.

                    That would mean,that for the last three years in a row. We would have used our top five picks and selected two five-technique DE's (Low value for a top 5 five pick) and a RT (VERY low value for a pick that high) If that happens..thats a joke! We would have to be the first team in the history of football,to get that little of value out of three top 5 picks in a row. While other teams are feeling those positions with second and third rounders.We are not only using first round picks. We are using top 5 picks! Gotta be kidding.

                    What a waste that would be! If we wanted to take a tackle,we could have got a damm "LT" last year.But passed instead. Who passes on a LT last year,for a RT this year. And then reaches on a five-technique DE,when we could get one as good as T.jackson in this years SECOND ROUND. (Joseph,Price,ect)

                    I say all that to say this. I hear people say all the time "why take a safety this high". "its bad value". Cant be much worse then a five-technique or a RT.So,when it come too the Chiefs...Dont tell me about value at all. And with all that said.....Gooooo Chiefs!!! lol
                    That is sort of old school thinking. Nowadays a team will bring in a hotshot coach or GM and they think they can win right away. With free agency and drafting for need teams want to win now, yet somehow it seems the same teams are back at the top of the draft each year.

                    I was saying the same thing about the Chiefs not taking a Tackle last year and now if they had they'd probably be looking at one of Berry/McCoy or Suh.

                    If the strategy of playing to the strength of the draft is something a team would do this year i would say get a D-lineman, a safety and a Big RB.(hope your listening Pete Carroll).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I've said it for months now.. OT would be a bad pick for KC. You can't look at sack numbers as the be all end all, just like you can't look at many other stats and think it tells the entire story.

                      The offensive line was bad early in the year. I'm not sugar coating it or denying it, they were awful, but there are many different reasons for the sack totals:

                      a) The biggest, I think, is firing our offensive coordinator a week before the season. Haley then changed the protection schemes, calls, everything. It's no surprise we struggled on offense early in the year, as many of us predicted that we would.

                      b) Matt Cassel holds onto the ball waaay too long, like Big Ben. With an offensive coordinator who obviously knows how to coach up QBs, I look for this problem to be fixed this year.

                      c) The team as a whole lost a lot of weight, and Branden Albert in particular struggled a bit early playing at the reduced weight. As the season went on, the OL gelled together, and they gradually changed to the ZBS, he started to improved (along with the rest of the team) and gave up 10 sacks over the last (I want to say..) 8 games, which was second best in the league after the Saints if I remember right.

                      No Chiefs fan will dispute that Albert has struggled, least of all me, but when you're looking at a top five pick (especially with this team) you have to go BPA AND need. You have to balance them and at this point it really comes down to Eric Berry or Rolando McClain.

                      Say what you will, but if Pioli targets a player and thinks he is right for his team, and can't trade down, he will pull the trigger.

                      I'm not saying OT won't be the pick, I'm saying that we have other areas that are much much bigger needs than OT, especially when Saffold and/or Vlad could be there in the second and take over at RT if they feel it's a need (I don't).
                      Last edited by vidae; 04-11-2010, 01:32 PM.

                      Originally posted by fenikz
                      His soft D really turns me off
                      ** RIP themaninblack. You will be missed. **

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                      • #12
                        I think it would be a mistake to take a RT at number 5 overall, especially in this year's draft.

                        I have them taking Rolando McClain...Pioli is a system guy, and McClain would be a great player in that 34, helping out the 31st ranked run D.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PhinsRock View Post
                          I think it would be a mistake to take a RT at number 5 overall, especially in this year's draft.

                          I have them taking Rolando McClain...Pioli is a system guy, and McClain would be a great player in that 34, helping out the 31st ranked run D.
                          Not sure i disagree with you but implying that you dont take guys that high to play RT but you draft guys to play ILB seems a little strange.

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                          • #14
                            But they wouldn't be taking a RT at #5 - they'd be taking a LT.

                            I don't get it.

                            Albert moves to guard, Bulaga or Williams is the franchise LT and the offensive line instantly becomes better for the future.

                            The question is whether or not the coaching staff believes Albert is the LT of the future.

                            That question will be answered on draft day at pick #5.
                            "I'm Ko Simpson!"

                            - Ko Simpson

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                            • #15
                              LT: Branden Albert
                              LG: Brian Waters
                              C: Casey Wiegmann
                              RG: Ryan Lilja
                              RT: Ryan O'Callaghan

                              What guard spot would Albert go to? The one held down by Brian Waters or the one held down by Ryan Lilja?

                              Everything they have done this offseason on that line stops making sense if Albert is moved. Our two biggest trouble spots were RG and C, and they've addressed both of them.

                              Plus, many don't believe Albert can play G in the NFL now after losing the weight and moving out to LT. I guess they could move him inside, but it doesn't seem like there is anywhere for him to play now.

                              Originally posted by fenikz
                              His soft D really turns me off
                              ** RIP themaninblack. You will be missed. **

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