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  • #46
    Originally posted by niel89 View Post
    I like Kaepernick as a guy that can maybe develop into a player down the road, but 1st round talk is crazy. They guy might creep into the 3rd.
    Crazy? So the Jake Locker 1st round talk is normal, yet the CK 1st round talk is crazy?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by brasho View Post
      There has only been 52 QBs to start Super Bowls, of the ones I listed, all played at schools as small (football-wise) or smaller than Nevada... and there were 15 QBs listed.... so that means nearly 30% of all SB QBs were from schools smaller than Nevada.... I think the "small-school" argument can be laid to rest once and for all.

      Kurt Warner, Northern Iowa

      Phil Simms, Morehouse

      Doug Williams, Grambling

      Roetthlisberger's got two, maybe three from Miami, OH

      Roger Staubach, Navy

      Terry Bradshaw, tiny little Louisiana Tech

      Jim McMahon, BYU

      Steve Young, BYU

      Brett Favre, Southern Miss

      Which one of these schools was a football factory?

      then there were some Super Bowl losers:

      Steve McNair was 2 yards from a win, Alcorn St.

      Jake Delhomme Louisiana Lafayette

      Ron Jaworski, Youngstown St.

      Rich Gannon, Delaware

      Stan Humphries, NE Louisiana

      Ken Anderson, Augustana


      Can we lay the small-school nonsense to rest once and for all?


      30%<70% by the way - We all know that you think the small school QB can make it in the NFL and I'm sure 90% of us agree that not every big school QB will produce in the NFL. There's too many variables to really put a finger on what makes a college QB successful in the NFL.

      It's a game of adjustments and as QBs are I guess becoming more and more "out of the pocket" throwers, defenses will then adapt to those kind of QBs as well.

      Aside from Rodgers, Vick, Big Ben and Sanchez, who else can you say are MOBILE QBs and not your typical "pocket passer"?

      The QB position is still a pocket passers game, the mobile QB label just adds a dimension. Just like a RB than never fumbles and can catch the ball out of the backfield as well.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by SKim172 View Post
        I think the Tebow comparison is apt, because Tebow had no business going in the first round. McDaniels was an idiot and I've yet to meet a Broncos fan who wouldn't agree.

        One thing about Kaepernick - he'll have to make his money as a passer and nothing else. His speed is pure straight-line speed - he's not actually particularly agile and seems a little tight-hipped. Takes some time getting up to full speed and doesn't seem to move easily from sideline to sideline. Not a Mike Vick by any means.
        Straightline speed can be a great thing for a QB, if you recall, the guy I compare CK to constantly had a ton of straightline speed, the guy otherwise known at one point in his career as "The Ultimate Weapon", Randall Cunningham.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by SKim172 View Post
          I think the Tebow comparison is apt, because Tebow had no business going in the first round. McDaniels was an idiot and I've yet to meet a Broncos fan who wouldn't agree.

          One thing about Kaepernick - he'll have to make his money as a passer and nothing else. His speed is pure straight-line speed - he's not actually particularly agile and seems a little tight-hipped. Takes some time getting up to full speed and doesn't seem to move easily from sideline to sideline. Not a Mike Vick by any means.
          Also, CK does something that Tebow can never do and can be considered a big time hindrance on Tebow... CK throws with his righthand. Only 32 QBs in NFL history have started games as lefthanders. Coaches are hesitant to have to flip around their playboks for lefties, have their blindside OT the RT, etc. Tebow played well as a rookie... and that will only help CK's cause.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by njx9
            you mean the team with the all-time winningest coach (eddie robinson)? or the program that was, at the time, renowned for the number of players it sent to the nfl?



            yeah, i mean, navy was only the #2 ranked team in the country at that point and playing in the de facto national championship.



            yes, that tiny little school that won a national championship in 1984 and was widely known as quarterback u.

            actually a few of them, but it's hard to fault you for not knowing what a simple internet search could've told you.

            all that shows is that you can manipulate statistics to mislead someone into believing nearly anything.
            That's great, and I can name 30 QB duds from major universities for every Mike Cherry and Carmazzi you throw at me.

            You think Staubach had a tiny bit to do with Navy's #2 ranking? Have they done much sense then? How many players from the Naval Academy have played in the NFL before and after Staubach?

            i
            How many great players has Grambling put out since Doug Wiliams? Jake Reed? Nice try. Their heyday was in the 60's and Williams was drafted in 78.

            Yeah, BYU was known as QBU... however, Gifford Nielsen, Marc Wilson, Robbie Bosco, Ty Detmer, and Steve Walsh's brother didn't do much of anything in the NFL. Jim McMahon and Steve Young were the two that did... how many other BYU players turned out well? Rathman, Shawn Knight and Jason Buck were below average, Glenn Kozlowski? I suppose you want to point to former 12th round pick or so, Todd Christensen? The good ones from BYU are few and far between.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by 87Canes View Post
              30%<70% by the way - We all know that you think the small school QB can make it in the NFL and I'm sure 90% of us agree that not every big school QB will produce in the NFL. There's too many variables to really put a finger on what makes a college QB successful in the NFL.

              It's a game of adjustments and as QBs are I guess becoming more and more "out of the pocket" throwers, defenses will then adapt to those kind of QBs as well.

              Aside from Rodgers, Vick, Big Ben and Sanchez, who else can you say are MOBILE QBs and not your typical "pocket passer"?

              The QB position is still a pocket passers game, the mobile QB label just adds a dimension. Just like a RB than never fumbles and can catch the ball out of the backfield as well.
              You've heard of Josh Freeman, right? He moves his feet with the best of them... and in case you didn't notice, he's still the 2nd youngest QB in the entire league. Matt Casssl has good feet, Tony Romo, I almost want to throw Garrard out there because if it weren't for his mobility he would stink, Fitzpatrick, Jay Cutler, Jon Kitna (ran for 15 yards average a game and 4.7 a carry), Jason Campbell, but just consider this.,.. 5 of the top 10 passers according to rating this season are guys by your definition as mobile. Rodgers, Vick, Roethlisberger, Freeman, and Cassel. Vince Young would be on that list if he had enough attempts... and I think Flacco's mobility is underrated.

              Mobility is a great equalizer for a young QB and CK will be at a great advantage of putting the extra pressure on a defense while he learns the nuances of the game.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by brasho View Post
                That's great, and I can name 30 QB duds from major universities for every Mike Cherry and Carmazzi you throw at me.



                How many great players has Grambling put out since Doug Wiliams? Jake Reed? Nice try. Their heyday was in the 60's and Williams was drafted in 78.

                Because the MAN integrated big time football down South after USC whupped Alabama in the early 70s(?) and Grambling lost its pipeline for the best AA football talent.

                Look at LSU's roster and just think what the Tigers would look like if all those players went to Grambling??

                Integration was great for the country, college and pro football.
                Not so good for former football powers like Grambling.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Tebow got crucified (if you'll pardon the expression) for his Senior Bowl performance, which was 8/12 passing with no TDs or picks. Kaepernick somehow get lionized for going 4/9 with no TDs and a pick. Whatever.

                  For the people here that get on Josh McDaniels for drafting Tebow, all the fans on the Denver boards are saying that if Josh had played Tim earlier in the season he would still be coaching there. So much for that pov. Tebow started the last 3 games of the season. A handful of other rookies did the same. Tim was easily the best of them, passing and running. Including Bradford.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by the natural View Post
                    Tebow got crucified (if you'll pardon the expression) for his Senior Bowl performance, which was 8/12 passing with no TDs or picks. Kaepernick somehow get lionized for going 4/9 with no TDs and a pick. Whatever.

                    For the people here that get on Josh McDaniels for drafting Tebow, all the fans on the Denver boards are saying that if Josh had played Tim earlier in the season he would still be coaching there. So much for that pov. Tebow started the last 3 games of the season. A handful of other rookies did the same. Tim was easily the best of them, passing and running. Including Bradford.
                    CK had 3 drops (one of which was knocked right into the hands of a defender), one throw away , and one pass that was high and out of bounds with a defender up the middle a half second from putting a lick on him. That accounts for all 5 incompletions. He should have been 7/9 with no picks.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by njx9
                      i'm sure you can. think you can tell me why, though?



                      are you suggesting he was the only player on that team, or do you want to admit you don't know anything about football in that era?



                      yippee? they never lost more than 3 games in the 70s and were sending a good number of players to the nfl through the mid-80s. but props. we should certainly argue about what they've done *since* the guy we're talking about graduated. that would have a lot to do with absolutely nothing.



                      1984. national championship. they were *not* a small school. you were simply wrong.
                      Ok, with your little point-counterpoint garbage you're pulling, you clearly are doing nothing but attempting to insult me and then fill your post with revisionist history. No, I wasn't around for Roger Staubach's Naval heroics, and that's fine with me, I prefer not to be so old and crusty that every new-fangled thing I see I have to scream out, "That's not the way they did things back in my day!"

                      Still, Roger Staubach was the main reason for Navy's high standings during his team... He won a Heisman with them... it wasn't for another 20 years before a player from a military academy even got mentioned as a Heisman candidate (Napoleon McCallum).

                      Yes, Grambling and Eddie Robinson were impressive, and so was Doug Williams when he returned to coach for a season (or two, I don't remember), but being a great D1-AA school isn't exactly being a great school in the SEC, is it?

                      As for BYU, they were a small school. THey were such a small school in fact that they were locked out of playing in any real bowl games and had to play a terrible Michigan team that came into the game at 6-5 (or whatever it was) and still needed a near miracle at the end from Bosco to win it. That was quite the statement game, beating a barely .500 team by the skin of their teeth. Then that program went big-time, right? Yep, Sean Covey, Michael Young, and a whole host of BYU QB wannabes got hyped out of their minds but Lavelle's crew was to contend for serious status no more. When a school recruits almost totally Mormon athletes, I would say their recruiting is pretty limited and always has been. Not to mention a majority of them go off on a mission when they're 19 and don't lift or play ball for two years.... but yeah, other than that, they're another USC.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by brasho View Post
                        You've heard of Josh Freeman, right? He moves his feet with the best of them... and in case you didn't notice, he's still the 2nd youngest QB in the entire league. Matt Casssl has good feet, Tony Romo, I almost want to throw Garrard out there because if it weren't for his mobility he would stink, Fitzpatrick, Jay Cutler, Jon Kitna (ran for 15 yards average a game and 4.7 a carry), Jason Campbell, but just consider this.,.. 5 of the top 10 passers according to rating this season are guys by your definition as mobile. Rodgers, Vick, Roethlisberger, Freeman, and Cassel. Vince Young would be on that list if he had enough attempts... and I think Flacco's mobility is underrated.

                        Mobility is a great equalizer for a young QB and CK will be at a great advantage of putting the extra pressure on a defense while he learns the nuances of the game.
                        Every QB has to mobile in todays game. You're pretty much manipulating every thing anyone says to fit the point you're trying to get across. All those QBs you mentioned aside from Josh Freeman are technically not real mobile QBs. They're not sitting ducks like Peyton but like I said, it's 2011 and every NFL QB has to be able to move.

                        The point is QBs need to be pocket passers. QBs who weren't/aren't pocket passers, Rex Grossman...dude saw the pocket start to collapse and he'd just throw something up and hope it landed to someone on his team.

                        I just see CK's learning curve being wayyyyy to steep to become an elite passer in the NFL. As I stated in another thread, he's VY Part 2 and to say VY is a good QB is absurd. Off the field issues and attitude is part of being a successful QB in the NFL. Regarding CK and the Senior Bowl, CK ran every chance he had instead of keeping his eyes downfield for a pass.

                        I'm done debating the CK thread - We'll let the draft and the NFL experts conclude this debate in April. My prediction is early 3rd round for CK, Locker will get picked in the 2nd because of his "hype" and all the other Senior Bowl QBs will go in rd 3 or higher with Ponder being the 1st one out of everyone aside from CK and JL. McElroy and Dalton shouldn't be drafted honestly.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by 87Canes View Post
                          Every QB has to mobile in todays game. You're pretty much manipulating every thing anyone says to fit the point you're trying to get across. All those QBs you mentioned aside from Josh Freeman are technically not real mobile QBs. They're not sitting ducks like Peyton but like I said, it's 2011 and every NFL QB has to be able to move.

                          The point is QBs need to be pocket passers. QBs who weren't/aren't pocket passers, Rex Grossman...dude saw the pocket start to collapse and he'd just throw something up and hope it landed to someone on his team.

                          I just see CK's learning curve being wayyyyy to steep to become an elite passer in the NFL. As I stated in another thread, he's VY Part 2 and to say VY is a good QB is absurd. Off the field issues and attitude is part of being a successful QB in the NFL. Regarding CK and the Senior Bowl, CK ran every chance he had instead of keeping his eyes downfield for a pass.
                          I'm done debating the CK thread - We'll let the draft and the NFL experts conclude this debate in April. My prediction is early 3rd round for CK, Locker will get picked in the 2nd because of his "hype" and all the other Senior Bowl QBs will go in rd 3 or higher with Ponder being the 1st one out of everyone aside from CK and JL. McElroy and Dalton shouldn't be drafted honestly.
                          Every QB I listed average 15 yards or more rushing per game, most, even Jon Kitna had well over 4.5 ypc... that is called scrambling ability, especially after you factor out the rushing attempts that were kneel downs.

                          So you honestly don't think Aaron Rodgers, Michael Vick, Matt Cassell, Ben Roethlisberger, Romo, Cutler, Fitzpatrick, and others (Kitna had the stats to prove mobiity, VY and Garrard have the mobility to justify putting them on the field) aren't mobile? That was one of the major topics of discussion with some of the playoff games, which was how mobile some of these QBs are.... and you don't think they are.

                          As for VInce Young, the guy's lifetime record as a starter is 30-17, which puts him pretty high up on the list for win% for active NFL QBs... and before you go thinking that it was the great team around him, the TItans just fired their coach for a reason (they went 6-10 this season, VY went 4-4) and it was long overdue. Six playoff appearances in 16 seasons don't exactly scream "SUCCESS!". And considering the Titans were 4-12, and 5-11 the two seasons immediately preceding VY, it is safe to assume that the 8-8 and 10-6 seasons after he came aboard might have had a little something to do with him, it is safe to bet that VY's biggest problems aren't on the field, but off.

                          You think CK is VY part 2, good for you, but there really aren't that many similarities. Though CK has very similar size to VY when he came out of college (6044 225 compared to 6045 229 lbs), CK has a far stronger arm, and much better straightline speed, which comes in far more handy than VY's ability to punish tacklers like he did in college.

                          Like I've said a million times before, CK is a much closer match physically and background-wise to former UNLV and Eagles and Vikings star, Randall Cunningham. Especially considering that CK has been known as a very hardworker while VY was known as a dummy (5 on Wonderlic) and a hothead (public tantrums after not winning Heisman in 2006). Considering how unintelligent and immature VY has shown he is as a pro, it is not surprising to see how he turned out.

                          As for your assumption that CK ran EVERY time he got pressured in the pocket, you couldn't be more wrong and living in your own little revisionist history. He was pressured threee different times only to step up and deliver strikes. The first time he stepped up underneath a rush from his right and threw a strike that bounced off Mike McNeil's hands for an INT, the other time he threw a strike to a WR in the intermediate zone to his right, and the last time he stepped up and ran parrallel to the LOS to have Hunter drop his pass at the left sideline. He ran 4 times, at least 2 of which were designed runs. I can't remember one his runs, but the 7 yarder was the one he ran from 3rd and goal from the 15 and it was a far better play than trying to force the ball into coverage. Your asserting that he took off every time he was pressured tells me that you either didn't watch any of the game, you just remember what you WANT to remember, or you have no idea of what you're talking about. Personally, I think it is a bit of all 3.

                          Ok, let's get some else clear... when you state that somebody will be "picked in the 2nd rounder or higher"... what you're saying is they will get picked in round 3 or higher... meaning round 1 or 2. I'm not sure if you knew that. I think what you mean is "3rd round or LATER". I think McElroy and Dalton will be drafted. They will be solid clipboard guys with whomever drafts them. They are both very smart, prepare well, and are the kind of guys you look for to be backups for a long time. Nobody will likely look at either of them and think that he is the answer to their problems at QB but they should be drafted.

                          I think you underestimate how much the NFL is a QB's league. Jake Locker still goes in round 1 no matter how much hype he has. He has a gun, can run like hell, has good enough size, and only has 2 seasons in a pro style offense. He needs developing for sure, but he has the raw tools a coach would love to work with. Same with CK. No team that has seen the early success of Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Josh Freeman, and Mark Sanchez is going to pass on a possible special QB (remember all the questions about Roethlisberger's and Flacco's level of competition, Ryan's arm strength, Freeman's accuracy and ability to adapt to a pro style offense and accuracy, and Sanchez's starting experience-12 or 13 games?) ALL QBs come into the league with questions. Rivers had a crazy release and questionable feet and arm strength (he also came from the spread), Brees had more questions than most QBs in recent memory (arm strength, size, collegiate offense), it's part of the process.

                          As for CK having to adapt to playing in the NFL, consider the fact that the majority of the pass coming from the QBs in the playoffs, came from shotgun, it would make sense that the jump to playing under OC is not as big of a deal as you might think. Here are the numbers for passes thrown from shotgun for playoff QBs: Peyton Manning attempted 76% of his passes out of the gun this year. Aaron Rodgers 65%. Tom Brady 64%. Kevin Kolb 64%. Ben Roethlisberger 62%. Michael Vick 61%. Matt Ryan 58%. Drew Brees 57%. Matt Hasselbeck 56%. Matt Cassel 52%. Joe Flacco 46%. Mark Sanchez 44%.Jay Cutler 15%. Maybe the biggest adjustment needed to be made here isn't with CK's adjustment to the NFL, but to the way you view him as a prospect.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by brasho View Post
                            Every QB I listed average 15 yards or more rushing per game, most, even Jon Kitna had well over 4.5 ypc... that is called scrambling ability, especially after you factor out the rushing attempts that were kneel downs.

                            So you honestly don't think Aaron Rodgers, Michael Vick, Matt Cassell, Ben Roethlisberger, Romo, Cutler, Fitzpatrick, and others (Kitna had the stats to prove mobiity, VY and Garrard have the mobility to justify putting them on the field) aren't mobile? That was one of the major topics of discussion with some of the playoff games, which was how mobile some of these QBs are.... and you don't think they are.

                            As for VInce Young, the guy's lifetime record as a starter is 30-17, which puts him pretty high up on the list for win% for active NFL QBs... and before you go thinking that it was the great team around him, the TItans just fired their coach for a reason (they went 6-10 this season, VY went 4-4) and it was long overdue. Six playoff appearances in 16 seasons don't exactly scream "SUCCESS!". And considering the Titans were 4-12, and 5-11 the two seasons immediately preceding VY, it is safe to assume that the 8-8 and 10-6 seasons after he came aboard might have had a little something to do with him, it is safe to bet that VY's biggest problems aren't on the field, but off.

                            You think CK is VY part 2, good for you, but there really aren't that many similarities. Though CK has very similar size to VY when he came out of college (6044 225 compared to 6045 229 lbs), CK has a far stronger arm, and much better straightline speed, which comes in far more handy than VY's ability to punish tacklers like he did in college.

                            Like I've said a million times before, CK is a much closer match physically and background-wise to former UNLV and Eagles and Vikings star, Randall Cunningham. Especially considering that CK has been known as a very hardworker while VY was known as a dummy (5 on Wonderlic) and a hothead (public tantrums after not winning Heisman in 2006). Considering how unintelligent and immature VY has shown he is as a pro, it is not surprising to see how he turned out.

                            As for your assumption that CK ran EVERY time he got pressured in the pocket, you couldn't be more wrong and living in your own little revisionist history. He was pressured threee different times only to step up and deliver strikes. The first time he stepped up underneath a rush from his right and threw a strike that bounced off Mike McNeil's hands for an INT, the other time he threw a strike to a WR in the intermediate zone to his right, and the last time he stepped up and ran parrallel to the LOS to have Hunter drop his pass at the left sideline. He ran 4 times, at least 2 of which were designed runs. I can't remember one his runs, but the 7 yarder was the one he ran from 3rd and goal from the 15 and it was a far better play than trying to force the ball into coverage. Your asserting that he took off every time he was pressured tells me that you either didn't watch any of the game, you just remember what you WANT to remember, or you have no idea of what you're talking about. Personally, I think it is a bit of all 3.

                            Ok, let's get some else clear... when you state that somebody will be "picked in the 2nd rounder or higher"... what you're saying is they will get picked in round 3 or higher... meaning round 1 or 2. I'm not sure if you knew that. I think what you mean is "3rd round or LATER". I think McElroy and Dalton will be drafted. They will be solid clipboard guys with whomever drafts them. They are both very smart, prepare well, and are the kind of guys you look for to be backups for a long time. Nobody will likely look at either of them and think that he is the answer to their problems at QB but they should be drafted.

                            I think you underestimate how much the NFL is a QB's league. Jake Locker still goes in round 1 no matter how much hype he has. He has a gun, can run like hell, has good enough size, and only has 2 seasons in a pro style offense. He needs developing for sure, but he has the raw tools a coach would love to work with. Same with CK. No team that has seen the early success of Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Josh Freeman, and Mark Sanchez is going to pass on a possible special QB (remember all the questions about Roethlisberger's and Flacco's level of competition, Ryan's arm strength, Freeman's accuracy and ability to adapt to a pro style offense and accuracy, and Sanchez's starting experience-12 or 13 games?) ALL QBs come into the league with questions. Rivers had a crazy release and questionable feet and arm strength (he also came from the spread), Brees had more questions than most QBs in recent memory (arm strength, size, collegiate offense), it's part of the process.

                            As for CK having to adapt to playing in the NFL, consider the fact that the majority of the pass coming from the QBs in the playoffs, came from shotgun, it would make sense that the jump to playing under OC is not as big of a deal as you might think. Here are the numbers for passes thrown from shotgun for playoff QBs: Peyton Manning attempted 76% of his passes out of the gun this year. Aaron Rodgers 65%. Tom Brady 64%. Kevin Kolb 64%. Ben Roethlisberger 62%. Michael Vick 61%. Matt Ryan 58%. Drew Brees 57%. Matt Hasselbeck 56%. Matt Cassel 52%. Joe Flacco 46%. Mark Sanchez 44%.Jay Cutler 15%. Maybe the biggest adjustment needed to be made here isn't with CK's adjustment to the NFL, but to the way you view him as a prospect.
                            So you still have yet to say if CK will be a 1st round draft pick or not? Which is the only reason for why I even started to comment on this thread.

                            I'm calling 3rd round and LATER but if he's lucky due to a WEAK QB class, he may go late 2nd round, unfortunately.

                            I compliment you for doing your research on numbers though. I merely have the time to compile actual stats nor do I think stats tell the whole story or even a significant part of a prospects ability. I do judge a book by its cover regarding scouting (currently) because it's not my job yet. Once I can focus 1000% of my time on it, stats will be incorporated into an evaluation. "It's part of the process"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 87Canes View Post
                              So you still have yet to say if CK will be a 1st round draft pick or not? Which is the only reason for why I even started to comment on this thread.

                              I'm calling 3rd round and LATER but if he's lucky due to a WEAK QB class, he may go late 2nd round, unfortunately.

                              I compliment you for doing your research on numbers though. I merely have the time to compile actual stats nor do I think stats tell the whole story or even a significant part of a prospects ability. I do judge a book by its cover regarding scouting (currently) because it's not my job yet. Once I can focus 1000% of my time on it, stats will be incorporated into an evaluation. "It's part of the process"
                              I've stated numerous times in this post where I thought he would go, top 64 with an emphasis that he goes around where Cunningham went (#37 overall) with a +/- of 10-20 spots. I'm looking at anywhere from pick #25 overall to #57.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by brasho View Post
                                I've stated numerous times in this post where I thought he would go, top 64 with an emphasis that he goes around where Cunningham went (#37 overall) with a +/- of 10-20 spots. I'm looking at anywhere from pick #25 overall to #57.
                                C'mooooon man!!! That's like me betting on Tom Brady throwing a TD pass vs the Broncos secondary. Too general - Huge room for someone to say, "Yep I told ya"

                                I'll call my pick right now. Buffalo Bills draft pick in rd 3. Chan Gailey always makes decent NFL QBs out of guys who weren't necessarily your prototypical NFL QB. Thigpen and Fitz in recent future...not to mention Reggie Ball was an ok QB at GT.

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