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Need to Change What They Measure?

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  • Need to Change What They Measure?

    Bench press is near pointless except for linemen. A SIGNIFICANTLY better measurement would be power clean. Few positions use their upper body strength regularly, everybody on every single play uses every ounce of strength they have in their legs(quarterbacks aren't people.)

    Rarely does a players absolute measurement of time to 40 have any usefulness in any sport. However, their 0-10 split is vitally important for every position, 10-20 split is not quite as important as 0-10, but more then 0-40. And their 20-40 split is more important then 0-40 as well. Each of these three measurements are more important then the total. And they are all recorded, but none of them are released except for the sum. Pointless and archaic.

    Landing after a broad jump. Why? This is a measurement of lower body power output. This has nothing to do with balance after jumping. They should measure the point of where the heal landed, regardless of balance at the end or not.

    Cone drill splits need to be included too. From time of touch at one cone to time of touch at another cone is more important then the total. This drill measures start and stopping ability, but it blurs them together too much. A player can have an extraordinary cone time with either good burst or good change deacceleration. Usually, they are unique. A good time tells you the player has one of them, it has no directive as to which it is.

    Just to exemplify, Mark Ingram's measurements are abyssal. His vertical is comparable to offensive linemen. His 40 is impressive for a impressive... for a dlinemen. His size is terrible. Yet his 10 yard split is among the best of the RBs, and this is only known if you watched the entire combine...

  • #2
    All of the things they currently run at the scouting combine are run for reasons.

    Some are straight forward. Some are combined with other drills to produce measures like "explosiveness ratings" and such.

    Some of it is just to see how well you prepare. I mean an OL benching 225 15 LBs didn't prepare for the combine. They want to see that everyone is going to take it serious.

    But yes, there are tons of little things that could improve scouting (and even some big things). Technology today could do a lot for us.
    **** her in da *****!

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    • #3
      I love the 10 yard and 20 yard splits when players run the 40.

      That first 10 yards says a lot about a guy's acceleration

      Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

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      • #4
        Yea they should only run 10 yards at the combine.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Brent View Post
          I love the 10 yard and 20 yard splits when players run the 40.

          That first 10 yards says a lot about a guy's acceleration
          They need to post the official times for the 10 and 20 yards splits and they need to have a radar gun drill for the QBs.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Cicero View Post
            They need to post the official times for the 10 and 20 yards splits and they need to have a radar gun drill for the QBs.

            NFLN should have for all the guys a nice little grid with all the measurables so you can see and sort and compare. I don't know why this is so flippin' hard to do.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sidney View Post
              NFLN should have for all the guys a nice little grid with all the measurables so you can see and sort and compare. I don't know why this is so flippin' hard to do.
              A big reason is the players and agents.

              They don't want bad performances publicized so the kids get embarrassed.
              Scott Wright, President
              Draft Countdown.com
              www.draftcountdown.com

              Twitter: twitter.com/DraftCountdown

              Draft Countdown Podcast, Every Tuesday at 8 PM EST
              www.blogtalkradio.com/draftcountdown and on iTunes

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              • #8
                Originally posted by J52 View Post
                Bench press is near pointless except for linemen. A SIGNIFICANTLY better measurement would be power clean. Few positions use their upper body strength regularly, everybody on every single play uses every ounce of strength they have in their legs(quarterbacks aren't people.)

                Rarely does a players absolute measurement of time to 40 have any usefulness in any sport. However, their 0-10 split is vitally important for every position, 10-20 split is not quite as important as 0-10, but more then 0-40. And their 20-40 split is more important then 0-40 as well. Each of these three measurements are more important then the total. And they are all recorded, but none of them are released except for the sum. Pointless and archaic.

                Landing after a broad jump. Why? This is a measurement of lower body power output. This has nothing to do with balance after jumping. They should measure the point of where the heal landed, regardless of balance at the end or not.

                Cone drill splits need to be included too. From time of touch at one cone to time of touch at another cone is more important then the total. This drill measures start and stopping ability, but it blurs them together too much. A player can have an extraordinary cone time with either good burst or good change deacceleration. Usually, they are unique. A good time tells you the player has one of them, it has no directive as to which it is.

                Just to exemplify, Mark Ingram's measurements are abyssal. His vertical is comparable to offensive linemen. His 40 is impressive for a impressive... for a dlinemen. His size is terrible. Yet his 10 yard split is among the best of the RBs, and this is only known if you watched the entire combine...
                First off, bench press DOES NOT measure body strength.... what it measures, and measures well, is a player's weightroom work ethic. There are no shortcuts to hardwork in the gym and the bench press shows who has been working dliligently and who is coasting on natural talent. This work ethic often translates into the practice field as well, a hardworker in the weightroom is more likely to work hard on the practice field and also more likely to take their rehab and injury recovery more seriously.

                This is far more important than trying to measure strength. Mush like with speed, some guys are just naturally stronger than others and there are many instances (with me for example) where a guy has excellent numbers on the bench but doesn't have a great max.

                Work ethic... that is what the bench press evaluates.

                As far the 40's, you stated the numbers are not released... but they are... and besides that, 98% of the public would have no idea of what to do with those numbers and it would be pointless to release anything. The teams know their splits, most websites provide the splits, if you do the math you can figure out all the numbers you want.

                The rest of the stuff I don't even feel like commenting on. You don't see the importance, fine. Don't watch.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scott Wright View Post
                  A big reason is the players and agents.

                  They don't want bad performances publicized so the kids get embarrassed.
                  Kids, you mean the 21-26 year old participants in attendance that are applying for jobs to be playing a game in front of millions of people? I hope they never get beat.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cicero View Post
                    They need to post the official times for the 10 and 20 yards splits and they need to have a radar gun drill for the QBs.
                    They do... or did.

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                    • #11
                      You have to make them stick the broad jump landing, or else you can just jump and then kick your legs out and land on your butt, then they mark the back of your feet, which would obviously be totally ridiculous. Once you say they don't have to stick it, your opening everything up for interpretation which the combine is not about at all.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by brasho View Post
                        Kids, you mean the 21-26 year old participants in attendance that are applying for jobs to be playing a game in front of millions of people? I hope they never get beat.
                        Well and all this is public, i mean I could sit there and do just what I asked to do, well ok maybe not just one guy, so these aren't state secrets.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sidney View Post
                          Well and all this is public, i mean I could sit there and do just what I asked to do, well ok maybe not just one guy, so these aren't state secrets.
                          Tell that to NFL scouts, they think it's state secrets.
                          Scott Wright, President
                          Draft Countdown.com
                          www.draftcountdown.com

                          Twitter: twitter.com/DraftCountdown

                          Draft Countdown Podcast, Every Tuesday at 8 PM EST
                          www.blogtalkradio.com/draftcountdown and on iTunes

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I find the 10- and 20-yard split times every year. I can't be the only one.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by brasho View Post
                              First off, bench press DOES NOT measure body strength.... what it measures, and measures well, is a player's weightroom work ethic. There are no shortcuts to hardwork in the gym and the bench press shows who has been working dliligently and who is coasting on natural talent. This work ethic often translates into the practice field as well, a hardworker in the weightroom is more likely to work hard on the practice field and also more likely to take their rehab and injury recovery more seriously.

                              This is far more important than trying to measure strength. Mush like with speed, some guys are just naturally stronger than others and there are many instances (with me for example) where a guy has excellent numbers on the bench but doesn't have a great max.

                              Work ethic... that is what the bench press evaluates.

                              As far the 40's, you stated the numbers are not released... but they are... and besides that, 98% of the public would have no idea of what to do with those numbers and it would be pointless to release anything. The teams know their splits, most websites provide the splits, if you do the math you can figure out all the numbers you want.

                              The rest of the stuff I don't even feel like commenting on. You don't see the importance, fine. Don't watch.
                              A. Upper body mass isn't universally beneficial, tho. Every pound of anything on a players body is another pound of mass to move. High ratios of power to body weight is what makes a player explosive. Positions that don't have a premium on upper body mass would view a 30 rep max as a negative. Just to look at an extreme, Sean Taylor intentionally kept his upper body strength relatively low to keep his lower body power/mass ratio high. He put up something like 7 reps of 225. Yet he weighed 232 and it was all lower body mass.

                              In general, usually bench press does represent this well. But, just to compare; it's universal at every position that the more lower body power you have the better. Lower body power also shows good work ethic and it correlates much higher with performance then bench press. To continue the previous example, Sean Taylor has Miami's all time DB power clean record. Obviously showing good work ethic as well as demonstrating power well. Whereas 7 reps would flag a poor work ethic and poor strength.

                              B. I've never seen these numbers compiled. NFL.com's site is atrocious. ESPN is pay only. Never found a forum or fan site to list anything but standard. Got a link?

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