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  • Originally posted by njx9
    so what makes unitas so much better than, say, jurgenson (who between 1961 and 1970, a better passer than unitas was at any point in his career)?
    Meh..Jurgenson was a great player in his own right, and is one of the most underrated players to ever play the game. Most people haven't even heard about him, yet there are some historians who consider him the best of that era.

    The thing that sets Unitas apart, though, is how clutch he was. He basically gave pro football the two minute drill (1958 NFL Title Game, also called "The Greatest Game Ever Played"), and called his own plays. He was an All-NFL first or second teamer eight times, made the Pro Bowl ten times, was Player of the Year three times, and, like I said, holds a record that probably won't ever be broken (47 consecutive games with a touchdown pass).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by someone447
      Johnny Unitas is widely considered the best qb of all time. I would definitely have Starr number 2, and I understand where you are coming from saying you can't put someone you haven't really seen play.

      Troy Aikman SHOULD NOT have been a first ballot hall of famer. Don't get me wrong, I like Terry Bradshaw, I just don't think he was a great QB, and there are MANY others that will agree with me on that. He was very good, but not great.

      Troy Aikman didn't do a whole lot. He had the all time leading rusher on his team, one of the best offensive lines in football history, a suffocating defense. Aikman was hardly more than along for the ride.

      JIM PLUNKETT DIDN'T EVEN START FOR HALF OF HIS CAREER!! That one isn't even debatable.

      And obviously YOU are the one who doesn't know how to read. I put THE QB of the 90's, meaning the top, the best, etc.

      I go on not what they have done? Ok, here are my lists for each decade.


      60's:Like you I haven't seen enough to make a top 5 list. But Johnny U has got to be number one. He was decades ahead of his time. I would like to say Starr is second, but I am not completely sure.

      70s:
      1. Roger Staubach: Great Scrambler and a pretty accurate passer
      2. Fran Tarkenton: An all-around amazing QB, 4th all time in rush yards for a qb. Staubach gets the nod over Tarkenton because of Tarkentons abysmal play in the Super Bowls.
      3. Terry Bradshaw: Yes he did win 4 super bowls, but he had perhaps the greatest team ever around him. The 70s Steelers had too many HOFers to count.
      4. Bob Griese: for the reasons you mentioned.
      5. Ken Stabler: for the reasons you mentioned.

      80s
      1. Montana: He was CLUTCH, if it was a big game, he was going to deliver. He executed the West Coast offense to perfection.
      2. Dan Marino: As of now holds every major record, he had some very good receivers, but his most notable running back was Kareem Abdul-Jabar...
      3. John Elway- He led the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s with no one else of any note. He made chardonnay out of *********** with that team.
      4. Dan Fouts: Led the "Air Coryell" offense that revolutionized the passing game. His Chargers were one of the most exciting teams in NFL history.
      5. Boomer Esiason: He threw for a ton of yards and TDs in the 80s and led the BENGALS to a Super Bowl(granted, they were very good that year, but its still the BENGALS.)

      90s
      1: Favre: 3 time MVP, appeared in the Super Bowl twice, winning one. Did more with less than any QB in NFL history except for Elway.
      2: Elway:Won 2 super bowls, including one over the heavily favored Packers. Was a phenomenal player, arguably the greatest QB of all time. I gave Favre the nod because of his 3 MVPs.
      3. Steve Young: The most efficient passer in NFL history.
      4. Dan Marino: He just kept throwing. Nothing else to say about him
      5. Jim Kelly: The last QB to call all of his own plays. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the Cowboys a few too many times in those super bowls.

      Overall, your list wasn't too bad, but Jim Plunkett should be no where near a top list. If you can't start more than half your career, you do not deserve to be on a top 5 list for a decade.

      I just think you put too much stock into the players being on good teams. QBs dont win championships, teams do. More specifically, defenses win championships. Look at Marino, I don't take anything away from him for not winning a Super Bowl, he had no help. I think Elway taking his team to the Super Bowl in the 80s was more impressive than him winning those 2 late in his career.
      If you read my post I said they helped thier teams win, I didn't say they won. Also Plunkett had a hard time starting for teams in the 70's, not 80's. He started with the Raiders through 84 when he got injured and Marc Wilson took over. I'm not saying Plunkett is the greatest of all time. I just put the best quarterbacks in the decades they played. Like I said, it's just an opinion. Under Plunkett, the Raiders did win 2 superbowls and had a very impressive record. I would never say Bradshaw wasn't great. You don't go to the hall of fame unless your great. I to don't think Aikman was a first time ballot HOF guy. Then again I don't get to vote either.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by njx9
        so what makes unitas so much better than, say, jurgenson (who between 1961 and 1970, a better passer than unitas was at any point in his career)?
        Unitas changed the game. The same way Taylor made the Left Tackle a glory position, Unitas's ability in the late 50s to throw the way he did made the DE position mean something.

        Prior to that, it was all about your DTs. DE was important, but it wasn't the glory position that it would later become. Unitas made it a glory position. With his ability to throw the ball the way he did, he made the DE an important piece to the defense. It became important to rush the passer from the edge of all of a sudden. Prior to that, as long as you had a good MIKE and DT duo you were good. Not anymore. You also saw the evolution of the CB and Safety happen after Unitas made it acceptable to throw on 1st down. He was the spark that made the CB, S, and DE position become a more important position than it once was.

        Without Unitas, there wouldn't be a Jurgeson. Unitas was the guy who made it acceptable to throw once in awhile on 1st down, and he was the the first guy who would throw near the goalline. Before that was blasphemy, Unitas showed the world it was possible.

        He also suffered through alot of injuries during his career, which hurt his overall numbers. You gotta take the #s with a grain of salt.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Severe Punishment
          Originally posted by Nitschke-Hawk
          Originally posted by 49ersfan_87
          Originally posted by Gribble
          Favre isn't getting a ton of love on here. Just an observation.
          Nobody views him as top 5 except packer fans. For the most part anyways.
          I think it's because he won those MVP's and the Super Bowl a long time ago. People are thinking of Favre these last few years where he hasn't had a team around him that was as good as his best years and letting that diminish his legacy a little bit. All the other players in people's top 5's are retired for the most part so that makes them look at the career as a whole. For example, when people put Dan Marino in the top 5 they never thought of his final year. I guarantee if Favre just retired he'd be in more top 5's. I'm not saying the last few years have tarnished his legacy cause when you look at it in whole it's as impressive as anybody's, it's just that people don't see the "greatness" they saw years ago. I think in the end more people will realize that than they do right now, because in the back of their mind there's retirement talk every year, team isn't successful as in years past, and some people get tired of hearing about him. I'm not saying they're taking this into account intentionally when ranking him, just indirectly and unintentionally.
          here's what I get out of this..."Packer fans (and Favre) are living in the past"
          Probably a reason they want to trade for Moss
          Go away. You probably weren't even born than.

          People put way too much stock in Favre's interceptions, or turnovers.

          Favre: 414 TD passes, and 273 interceptions/ 1.51 TD's every INT
          Elway: 300 TD passes, and 226 interceptions/ 1.327 TD's every INT
          Montana: 273 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.96 TD's every INT
          Aikman: 165 TD passes, and 141 interceptions/ 1.17 TD's every INT
          Marino: 420 TD passes, and 252 interceptions/ 1.6667 TD's every INT
          Young: 232 TD passes, and 107 interceptions/ 2.168 TD's every INT
          Manning: 275 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.978 TD's every INT
          Brady: 147 TD passes, and 78 interceptions/ 1.88 TD's every INT

          Hitman D

          "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." - Henry David Thoreau

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          • If you don't see Aikman as a first ballot hall of famer how do you put him above people who without a doubt deserve, or deserved to be first ballot hall of famers: marino, elway, favre.

            Plunkett played 4 years in the 80s, hardly enough to put him anywhere near the top.
            I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
            Hunter S. Thompson

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            • but how much of all of that was really unitas, and how much was john mackey, one of the first (and probably the best) tight end who played a more modern role? isn't this the same argument made against peyton manning (that his weapons make him look far better)?

              what about raymond berry, who had, arguably, just as big a role in the colts 2 minute drive as unitas?

              maybe lenny moore?

              it can't've hurt that he had a hall of famer at LT.

              i mean, unitas had an overwhelming amount of hall of fame talent on the field with him. maybe they all made him look better than he really was?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by njx9
                but how much of all of that was really unitas, and how much was john mackey, one of the first (and probably the best) tight end who played a more modern role? isn't this the same argument made against peyton manning (that his weapons make him look far better)?

                what about raymond berry, who had, arguably, just as big a role in the colts 2 minute drive as unitas?

                maybe lenny moore?

                it can't've hurt that he had a hall of famer at LT.

                i mean, unitas had an overwhelming amount of hall of fame talent on the field with him. maybe they all made him look better than he really was?
                Thats an interesting way to look at it, something I overlooked. The relationship is something only the players and coaches can comment on. How much of it was Unitas vs his skill position guys. Perhaps the recognition of these skill position players does not happen if they didn't have a Unitas throwing them the ball? Without him, no matter how good they are, theyre just a bunch of route runners.

                Im leaning towards Unitas. Watching old games of his play, you can just see the talent. His ability and moxy, presence and throwing ability, it was just different compared to everyone else back then. He just had that it factor.

                BF51 probably knows more than I do on this. Im curious to hear his take on all of this.

                Comment


                • I have never seen this thread before. How creative...

                  What do the vikings and marijuana have in common? Every time you put them in a bowl
                  they get smoked.

                  2010-2011 Super Bowl Champions
                  Hint:Not the Bears.

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                  • Originally posted by someone447
                    If you don't see Aikman as a first ballot hall of famer how do you put him above people who without a doubt deserve, or deserved to be first ballot hall of famers: marino, elway, favre.

                    Plunkett played 4 years in the 80s, hardly enough to put him anywhere near the top.
                    Pay attention to how I listed them. I did it in decades. The reason is because of the way the game changed. Marino was put in there twice because of what he was able to do. The reason why I wouldn't put Aikman as a first time ballot, is because I thought that there were other guys up for the HOF that deserved to be in there before him. Same with Elway and Favre. Just because it is Farve, doesn't mean I would put him in the top 10 of all time or make him the greatest. Plunkett was put in there because of what he did in that span.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bigbluedefense
                      Originally posted by njx9
                      but how much of all of that was really unitas, and how much was john mackey, one of the first (and probably the best) tight end who played a more modern role? isn't this the same argument made against peyton manning (that his weapons make him look far better)?

                      what about raymond berry, who had, arguably, just as big a role in the colts 2 minute drive as unitas?

                      maybe lenny moore?

                      it can't've hurt that he had a hall of famer at LT.

                      i mean, unitas had an overwhelming amount of hall of fame talent on the field with him. maybe they all made him look better than he really was?
                      Thats an interesting way to look at it, something I overlooked. The relationship is something only the players and coaches can comment on. How much of it was Unitas vs his skill position guys. Perhaps the recognition of these skill position players does not happen if they didn't have a Unitas throwing them the ball? Without him, no matter how good they are, theyre just a bunch of route runners.

                      Im leaning towards Unitas. Watching old games of his play, you can just see the talent. His ability and moxy, presence and throwing ability, it was just different compared to everyone else back then. He just had that it factor.

                      BF51 probably knows more than I do on this. Im curious to hear his take on all of this.
                      seconded. although i'm not surprised he's avoided this thread.

                      clearly i agree on unitas and think he was a great qb, but you and YFS gave me a chance to ask someone articulate to say why, so i took advantage and played a little devil's advocate.

                      i DO think the presence of a game changing TE like mackey and the amazing offensive talent surrounding unitas helped him. the presence of jim parker alone had to make a huge difference.

                      i also find it odd how often jurgensen is overlooked in these (i'd forgotten his name for the most part).

                      Comment


                      • 1. Brett Favre
                        2. Dan Marrino
                        3. Joe Montana
                        4. Steve Young
                        5. Peyton Manning

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                        • Originally posted by someone447
                          Originally posted by Maybe Next Year Millen
                          Originally posted by someone447
                          Originally posted by njx9
                          Originally posted by someone447
                          Wow, Favre is my all time favorite player, and I wouldn't say he is the best QB ever. I'll do my pre-WC offense, and my post-WC offense(I chose that time period because the West Coast offense completely changed offenses completely, making the statistics impossible to compare. Not to mention, the rules were changed to open up the passing game in 1978.)
                          i figured someone would be surprised. i recall seeing favre sprinting straight to the right (around '94-'95) and firing the ball across his body 60 yards downfield on a rope for a completion. elway was the only other quarterback i think had a vague chance of making the same throw. and that's just on thing that popped into mind.
                          :-D, that was against the Lions in the first round of the playoffs. Elway definitely could make a throw like that. I think his arm may have even been stronger than Favre's ever was.
                          It was a 40 yard td pass and somehow Sterling Sharpe was wide open in the end zone. How do you let Sterling Sharpe wide open in the endzone. That td just baffles me. It was a great game though.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_pla...troit_Lions_24
                          He still threw it 60 yards on a rope. He rolled out and launched it to the back of the endzone.

                          No one is saying that he is as good of a QB as he was in 96. But he is still an above average starting QB in the NFL.
                          Here is the video of the throw. Still very impressive, probably 50 yards but across his body.
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjdfSx2MojM

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gribble
                            Originally posted by someone447
                            Originally posted by 49ersfan_87
                            Favorite 5

                            1. Steve Young
                            2. Joe Montana
                            3. John Elway
                            4. Doug Flutie
                            5. Rich Gannon

                            Top 5

                            1. Joe Montana
                            2. John Elway
                            3. Johnny Unitas

                            The rest is too jumbled...marino, tarkenton, young, bradshaw, etc. Not counting current guys like brady, manning, and favre.
                            Bradshaw shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.
                            Well, he won 4 Super Bowls.
                            Yes, and playing with one of the most talented defensive units ever assembled has nothing to do with those wins? Big deal he was in a good situation during his career, doesn't mean he was the best.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Boston
                              Originally posted by Severe Punishment
                              Originally posted by Nitschke-Hawk
                              Originally posted by 49ersfan_87
                              Originally posted by Gribble
                              Favre isn't getting a ton of love on here. Just an observation.
                              Nobody views him as top 5 except packer fans. For the most part anyways.
                              I think it's because he won those MVP's and the Super Bowl a long time ago. People are thinking of Favre these last few years where he hasn't had a team around him that was as good as his best years and letting that diminish his legacy a little bit. All the other players in people's top 5's are retired for the most part so that makes them look at the career as a whole. For example, when people put Dan Marino in the top 5 they never thought of his final year. I guarantee if Favre just retired he'd be in more top 5's. I'm not saying the last few years have tarnished his legacy cause when you look at it in whole it's as impressive as anybody's, it's just that people don't see the "greatness" they saw years ago. I think in the end more people will realize that than they do right now, because in the back of their mind there's retirement talk every year, team isn't successful as in years past, and some people get tired of hearing about him. I'm not saying they're taking this into account intentionally when ranking him, just indirectly and unintentionally.
                              here's what I get out of this..."Packer fans (and Favre) are living in the past"
                              Probably a reason they want to trade for Moss
                              Go away. You probably weren't even born than.

                              People put way too much stock in Favre's interceptions, or turnovers.

                              Favre: 414 TD passes, and 273 interceptions/ 1.51 TD's every INT
                              Elway: 300 TD passes, and 226 interceptions/ 1.327 TD's every INT
                              Montana: 273 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.96 TD's every INT
                              Aikman: 165 TD passes, and 141 interceptions/ 1.17 TD's every INT
                              Marino: 420 TD passes, and 252 interceptions/ 1.6667 TD's every INT
                              Young: 232 TD passes, and 107 interceptions/ 2.168 TD's every INT
                              Manning: 275 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.978 TD's every INT
                              Brady: 147 TD passes, and 78 interceptions/ 1.88 TD's every INT
                              Favre is definitely top 5. Not only was he among the greatest of all time when he was at his peak, he has sustained an above average level of play longer than anyone else.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by cunningham06
                                Originally posted by Gribble
                                Originally posted by someone447
                                Originally posted by 49ersfan_87
                                Favorite 5

                                1. Steve Young
                                2. Joe Montana
                                3. John Elway
                                4. Doug Flutie
                                5. Rich Gannon

                                Top 5

                                1. Joe Montana
                                2. John Elway
                                3. Johnny Unitas

                                The rest is too jumbled...marino, tarkenton, young, bradshaw, etc. Not counting current guys like brady, manning, and favre.
                                Bradshaw shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.
                                Well, he won 4 Super Bowls.
                                Yes, and playing with one of the most talented defensive units ever assembled has nothing to do with those wins? Big deal he was in a good situation during his career, doesn't mean he was the best.
                                He still had to play QB all those games and win.


                                Elway had a pretty stout defense.. Romanowski, Neil Smith, Atwater, Traylor and Trevor Pryce... Were some of my favorite guys growing up.

                                Elway also had, Shannon Sharpe, Terell Davis, Tom Nalen, Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey. Pretty solid Lineup there.

                                Not to mention Reliable kickers in Rouen and Elam.


                                Farve Had arguably the greatest DE of all time.. And Santana Dotson was no slouch either, dude was massive and a monster player.

                                He also had Mark Chmura, Antonio Freeman, Desmond Howard(Who won the SB) and Dorsey Levens Although not HOF'ers .. no slouches.

                                If anyone wants to make the "Has no talent around them" SB comment, should be Marino... Mark Clayton and Mark Duper... both had 1300+ Yards recieving...

                                Elway also took his Broncos earlier to the SB.. but His stats were about as Bad as Roethlisbergers were.

                                Elway in 1990 threw 10 for 26 for 108 yards and 2 INTs.
                                Elway in 1988 threw 14 for 38 for 257 yards, 1 Td and 3 INTs.


                                It wasn't like he did amazing in the superbowl all the time. I still respect him and think he was a great QB, but there's more to it...

                                SuperBowl X:
                                Bradshaw: 9 for 19, 209 yards 2 TD's Better than Elways....

                                SuperBowl XIII:
                                Bradshaw: 17 for 30, 318 yards, 4 Td's, 1 Int.. again...

                                Superbowl XIV:
                                Bradshaw: 14 for 21, 309 yards, 2Td's, 3 INT's... again better than Elways.. in a time before the rules that opened up the pass Game.

                                I think you guys severely underrated Bradshaw and Pittsburgh Qb's in General because our Normal Preference to run first.

                                Yeah, I play WoW too.[/CENTER]

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