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Top 10 Reasons Tom Brady is the Greatest QB Ever...

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  • Originally posted by someone447 View Post
    Peyton Manning, John Elway, Dan Marino, and Brett Favre can all play in any system. I am not convinced that Montana could run the Run and Shoot or Air Coryell.
    Yes but they wouldn't have been as great. I didn't mean system guy in a bad way.

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    • Originally posted by Addict View Post
      Yes but they wouldn't have been as great. I didn't mean system guy in a bad way.
      I think those guys would have been just as great in any offense. They have the tools to be great regardless of the scheme. Montana didn't. His arm wasn't strong enough to run a down field passing attack.
      I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
      Hunter S. Thompson

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      • Originally posted by Addict View Post
        Yes but they wouldn't have been as great. I didn't mean system guy in a bad way.
        Becoming a master at one system definitely has its place and on some level I think you're right that evry QB has a system in place that mximizes his abilities but certain QBs could basically run any offense while others are limited to specific systems. There's no doubt that Brady and Montana deserve consideration but I think raw ability has to be a factor. To what extent is a personal decision depending on how much value you ascribe to physical ability


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        • Originally posted by adamprez2003 View Post
          I agree. If a QB is limited to just one system to be effective then his overall worth diminishes to other teams. Why would a vertical passing team even consider Montana. They would be better off getting a good or very good vertical thrower instead of a great west coast QB
          Who cares?

          I still fail to see how this is a relevant point at all. Montana had a job to do, he did it with extreme efficiency. Whether he could do someone elses job is irrelevant. It's like saying George Washington was a bad president because he couldn't dance.


          Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.

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          • NJX, that post was utter brilliance.

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            I remember NFLDC
            don't tell anyone, but Charlie Casserly is a dope fiend

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            • Originally posted by njx9
              i do, too. it's just a worthless comment that does absolutely nothing to further his argument. every player on the field can be helped by scheme. every. player. period.
              I see where your coming from, but the way I took it was less about schemes as it was physical help. Thats the way I took it. If a QB is in trouble, there really isnt anyone there to help him throw the ball or help him make his read. Where as if a LT is having trouble with a DE/OLB they can put a TE or a RB to help him out.

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              • Originally posted by njx9
                so who helps a WR with the dropsies? or a running back who needs to break a tackle? or a DT who's getting blown out by the guard? again, i see what he's getting at, it just isn't very well thought out.
                Well, certain things can be helped. A RB not breaking tackles can be saved if the OL is getting a good enough push and broken tackles isnt necessary. I do see where your coming from. But both are correct in a sense. I fully understand where you brought schemes into it because it will help out the moajority of the time, where physically putting an extra player to help someone else will too.

                Buts its not as well thought out as my flex defense was it njx9?

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                • Originally posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
                  Who cares?

                  I still fail to see how this is a relevant point at all. Montana had a job to do, he did it with extreme efficiency. Whether he could do someone elses job is irrelevant. It's like saying George Washington was a bad president because he couldn't dance.
                  Dancing has nothing to do with being a president. Playing in a different system has everything to do with playing QB.
                  I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
                  Hunter S. Thompson

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                  • Originally posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
                    Who cares?

                    I still fail to see how this is a relevant point at all. Montana had a job to do, he did it with extreme efficiency. Whether he could do someone elses job is irrelevant. It's like saying George Washington was a bad president because he couldn't dance.
                    The point is simply how you gauge QBs of different eras and different systems. If you throw away physical characteristics all you're left with is statistics. There are so many different things (surrounding team, system, running team or throwing team, etc) that go into statistics that I think you do a disservice to the human element involved. Granted it takes it away from the mathematical model of argument but I think football isnt about math. Its about speed, strength and controlled brutality and the ability to thrive in that environment. I just dont think stats capture all the different elements that go into success to be the end all


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                    • Originally posted by njx9
                      that's why every qb throws like jamarcus russell, right? because they can't play in a system (west coast offense) that allows for shorter throws? i mean, chad pennington has a rocket. that's why he had a great season in 2002, right? i mean, the jets certainly didn't scheme around his strengths and away from his weaknesses. are you serious, or did you just fail completely to think before posting? you can hide a quarterback's inadequacies just like you can hide them from any other player.
                      In 2002 Chad Pennington's arm wasn't a noodle. Obviously his arm wasn't the strongest, but it doesn't mean he didn't have the neccessary arm strength to play in the NFL. And Chad Pennington isn't really the most persuasive example, seeing as the Jets only went 9-7 in 2002 and he posted a 44.9 rating in a divisional round loss.

                      Originally posted by ny10804
                      You can compensate for certain positions and not lose as much moreso than you can for others. A QB has to have arm strength and accuracy to make every throw. Once you have to compensate for the QB (keeping an extra blocker in, running the ball more), you're sacrificing more than you would for any other position.




                      Originally posted by njx9
                      right, having good leg swing has no effect on kicking. and dan marino was roughly as agile as reggie bush.
                      Agility and flexibility are two different things. Not many kickers can avoid 300lb lineman running at them at full speed.



                      Originally posted by njx9
                      and a quarterback won't ever have to bull rush a LT.
                      Originally posted by njx9
                      in exactly the same way that, say, the kicks a placekicker is capable of making are determined by his own agility, strength, vision and touch. right? so why is this even worth saying? it applies to literally every player who plays a major professional sport.
                      Originally posted by njx9
                      unless he's in the nfl or its an option route.
                      Maybe I should've said the type of progression a QB makes is more complex than a WR's.


                      Originally posted by njx9
                      yeah! why would a fullback ever have to pick up a blizter by identifying the blitz before the play?
                      Most FBs will only be on the field on passing downs to block. Their job is to pick up a blitzer, or go out for a pass if no one comes. He knows his job as he's running onto the field.







                      I know that you agree that QB is the most important position, but will only support a well written, thought out opinion that not many of us are willing to make knowing that the majority of people don't want or need to be convinced of something they already believe.

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                      • Originally posted by ny10804 View Post
                        In 2002 Chad Pennington's arm wasn't a noodle. Obviously his arm wasn't the strongest, but it doesn't mean he didn't have the neccessary arm strength to play in the NFL. And Chad Pennington isn't really the most persuasive example, seeing as the Jets only went 9-7 in 2002 and he posted a 44.9 rating in a divisional round loss.
                        What does this have to do with your argument? Of course you have to have a certain amount of ability to play QB in the NFL. But it's absolutely not anymore important to have said talent than in any other position. A guy who can't bench press 125 pounds won't make it as a lineman. A guy who can't throw the ball 30 yards can't play QB, a guy who weighs 300 pounds and can't run probably won't make a good WR.

                        Originally posted by ny10804 View Post

                        Agility and flexibility are two different things. Not many kickers can avoid 300lb lineman running at them at full speed.
                        Not many QBs can kick a football 50 yards accurately. Your point?


                        Originally posted by ny10804 View Post

                        Maybe I should've said the type of progression a QB makes is more complex than a WR's.
                        And WRs have to deal with the ability to run good routes, make less complex reads and get hit while jumping up in the air. I still fail to see your point.

                        Originally posted by ny10804 View Post
                        Most FBs will only be on the field on passing downs to block. Their job is to pick up a blitzer, or go out for a pass if no one comes. He knows his job as he's running onto the field.
                        In that sense, so does a QB, I hope. I certainly wouldn't want to run an offense where the QB has to figure out where the receivers are supposed to go. That'd be very interesting, though.



                        Originally posted by ny10804 View Post
                        I know that you agree that QB is the most important position, but will only support a well written, thought out opinion that not many of us are willing to make knowing that the majority of people don't want or need to be convinced of something they already believe.
                        Personally, any argument other than a QB has to do things that other players don't have to would be nice, because it doesn't show the importance of the QB, which I don't really see as the most important part of the team. I think if the O-line doesn't protect a QB, he sucks anyway, so why is he more important than the line?
                        Last edited by mqtirishfan; 01-22-2008, 07:09 PM.

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                        • Personally, I am shocked, confused and slightly amused at the lack of recognition that Troy Aikman has gotten in this thread now that it has morphed from "Tom Brady is the GOAT" to "List your best all-time QBs".

                          Aikman is a case-study in what it means to be a complete and unblemished team player. You are talking about a guy that had every throwing measurable you could possibly hope for--arm strength, accuracy, size etc--along with every intangible you could hope for--intelligence, poise, toughness, leadership etc--and combined it with a winner's mentality and sense of the moment. A guy who won more games in a decade than any other QB, despite the fact that his team fell apart half way through said decade as the alien demands of the salary cap and an out of control owner quickly eroded the talent base, and came up in big game situation after big game situation on his way to winning THREE Super Bowls--bettered by only TWO other players in the history of the game.

                          The only knock on this guy is that he didn't put up magnificent statistical totals. Well, that's funny, because you could use the same line of reasoning with Tom Brady, and yet when that happens all anyone wants to do is point at his three Super Bowl titles. Of course, now people say "LOOK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE HAS THE WEAPONS!!" But that ignores the fact that a) its not like Brady went from having horrible weapons in the early part of his career to having "good" ones this year; no, he went from "solid" to "quite possibly the best recieving corps of all time" or that b) ITS STILL HIS BODY OF WORK.

                          You can't use what "might" have happened or what "could" have happened if circumstances were different to substantiate a players greatness. What we know is that Brady has had 6 seasons of "slightly above average" and one season of "I can't believe he is doing this".

                          Well, I can name another QB who had that--minus the Super Bowls--and that is Randall Cunningham. He was a different animal, in that his wild swings and inconsistencies led to the overall quality of his play being "slightly above average" (even with the running threat added in) as opposed to Brady's steady hand, but the fact remains that he had one great All-Time quality season. A season in which the Vikings made a run at perfection. A season in which he set passing records, threw all sorts of TDs, and his team won every weekend. Its funny, really, that there is a common denominator between the two: Randy Moss. Think about that.


                          Finally, I would like to compare the passer rating ranks of the two QBs (to take into account the difference in eras) through their second to seventh seasons (01-06 for Brady, 90-95 for Aikman)

                          Year.........Brady......Aikman
                          2nd...........6th.........25th
                          3rd............9th..........6th
                          4th...........10th.........3rd
                          5th...........9th..........2nd
                          6th............6th.........5th
                          7th............9th.........3rd

                          So, as you see, compared to the standard of the day, Aikman was much better during his prime years. After the rough start, Aikman won more games during his prime years (3rd through 7th) when both teams won 3 Super Bowls. One might assert that Dallas had the superior supporting cast. The reply would be, in turn, that Dallas wasn't playing in the watered down league that we have today with 4 more teams and FA/Salary Cap destroy continuity from year to year.

                          It could go back and forth. But the truth, at least in my eyes, is that you cannot make a case for Brady being anywhere near GOAT status without validating Aikman in that same conversation. Their resumes--excluding 2007, which is really what has spurred this discussion--are startlingly similar.

                          To conclude, I don't believe that Aikman is a top 5 QB, either in the modern day or All-Time discussion, but I do passionately believe that he is better than the likes of Kelly, Moon, McNabb or any of the other pretenders that some have spuriously listed as being better than him.

                          In many ways, today's Manning/Brady debate is the new Aikman/Young debate, right down to the 1 SB win by the guy with the superior numbers, versus the big game advantage that the more conservative team's guy held. History has chosen to elevate Young vastly over Aikman because of the stats. If it doesn't do the same in the Manning/Brady debate, then I will know for a fact that there is some conspiracy in effect.
                          Originally posted by 21ST
                          He was protecting his self
                          Originally posted by tjsunstein
                          From what? His leg?
                          Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck
                          That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
                          "We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

                          DeMarcus Ware

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                          • Originally posted by DMWSackMachine View Post
                            Personally, I am shocked, confused and slightly amused at the lack of recognition that Troy Aikman has gotten in this thread now that it has morphed from "Tom Brady is the GOAT" to "List your best all-time QBs".

                            Aikman is a case-study in what it means to be a complete and unblemished team player. You are talking about a guy that had every throwing measurable you could possibly hope for--arm strength, accuracy, size etc--along with every intangible you could hope for--intelligence, poise, toughness, leadership etc--and combined it with a winner's mentality and sense of the moment. A guy who won more games in a decade than any other QB, despite the fact that his team fell apart half way through said decade as the alien demands of the salary cap and an out of control owner quickly eroded the talent base, and came up in big game situation after big game situation on his way to winning THREE Super Bowls--bettered by only TWO other players in the history of the game.

                            The only knock on this guy is that he didn't put up magnificent statistical totals. Well, that's funny, because you could use the same line of reasoning with Tom Brady, and yet when that happens all anyone wants to do is point at his three Super Bowl titles. Of course, now people say "LOOK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE HAS THE WEAPONS!!" But that ignores the fact that a) its not like Brady went from having horrible weapons in the early part of his career to having "good" ones this year; no, he went from "solid" to "quite possibly the best recieving corps of all time" or that b) ITS STILL HIS BODY OF WORK.

                            You can't use what "might" have happened or what "could" have happened if circumstances were different to substantiate a players greatness. What we know is that Brady has had 6 seasons of "slightly above average" and one season of "I can't believe he is doing this".

                            Well, I can name another QB who had that--minus the Super Bowls--and that is Randall Cunningham. He was a different animal, in that his wild swings and inconsistencies led to the overall quality of his play being "slightly above average" (even with the running threat added in) as opposed to Brady's steady hand, but the fact remains that he had one great All-Time quality season. A season in which the Vikings made a run at perfection. A season in which he set passing records, threw all sorts of TDs, and his team won every weekend. Its funny, really, that there is a common denominator between the two: Randy Moss. Think about that.


                            Finally, I would like to compare the passer rating ranks of the two QBs (to take into account the difference in eras) through their second to seventh seasons (01-06 for Brady, 90-95 for Aikman)

                            Year.........Brady......Aikman
                            2nd...........6th.........25th
                            3rd............9th..........6th
                            4th...........10th.........3rd
                            5th...........9th..........2nd
                            6th............6th.........5th
                            7th............9th.........3rd

                            So, as you see, compared to the standard of the day, Aikman was much better during his prime years. After the rough start, Aikman won more games during his prime years (3rd through 7th) when both teams won 3 Super Bowls. One might assert that Dallas had the superior supporting cast. The reply would be, in turn, that Dallas wasn't playing in the watered down league that we have today with 4 more teams and FA/Salary Cap destroy continuity from year to year.

                            It could go back and forth. But the truth, at least in my eyes, is that you cannot make a case for Brady being anywhere near GOAT status without validating Aikman in that same conversation. Their resumes--excluding 2007, which is really what has spurred this discussion--are startlingly similar.

                            To conclude, I don't believe that Aikman is a top 5 QB, either in the modern day or All-Time discussion, but I do passionately believe that he is better than the likes of Kelly, Moon, McNabb or any of the other pretenders that some have spuriously listed as being better than him.

                            In many ways, today's Manning/Brady debate is the new Aikman/Young debate, right down to the 1 SB win by the guy with the superior numbers, versus the big game advantage that the more conservative team's guy held. History has chosen to elevate Young vastly over Aikman because of the stats. If it doesn't do the same in the Manning/Brady debate, then I will know for a fact that there is some conspiracy in effect.
                            Gotta take Brady over Young and Aikman for one simple reason...

                            He has gone from unhearalded 6th round draft pick to waking up to Gisele every morning. It is Brady's world and I am just paying rent.

                            In summation -

                            Aikman - 0 Supermodels
                            Young - 0 Supermodels
                            Brady - 1 Supermodel

                            Case closed

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jnew76 View Post
                              Gotta take Brady over Young and Aikman for one simple reason...

                              He has gone from unhearalded 6th round draft pick to waking up to Gisele every morning. It is Brady's world and I am just paying rent.

                              In summation -

                              Aikman - 0 Supermodels
                              Young - 0 Supermodels
                              Brady - 1 Supermodel

                              Case closed
                              Have you seen Steve Young's wife? You don't date have to date a supermodel to have an attractive wife. That's ridiculous.
                              Last edited by Ness; 01-23-2008, 11:25 PM.

                              "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
                              -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
                              Originally posted by Borat
                              Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

                              Comment


                              • Uh, Aikman regularly dated high profile women back in his day, including a country singer and an actress.

                                And draft position is no more a factor in this argument than it is in deciding whether or not a player makes it.

                                Of course, that all is assuming you're serious, which I hope you're not.
                                Originally posted by 21ST
                                He was protecting his self
                                Originally posted by tjsunstein
                                From what? His leg?
                                Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck
                                That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
                                "We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

                                DeMarcus Ware

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