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  • #16
    Originally posted by Don Vito View Post
    Chad Jackson is young and gifted, he hasn't done anything yet because he was hurt and had trouble with the playbook as a rookie (plus BB doesn't throw rookies into the fire too often) and we were loaded at WR last year. With Stallworth gone, he could make an impact this year.
    I really like Jackson, and I agree that he could have an impact this year.

    Comment


    • #17
      Yeah, the big thing here is that the Patriots had one first round pick, then nothing else until the fourth, but managed to pick up two of the top receivers in the league last year, including the #1 guy pretty much everywhere. Their fourth-seventh round picks weren't that good, admittedly, but there were very few spots available to rookies to make the team anyways, only about 2-3 spots open. Plus, the late-round picks are basically a crapshoot, anyways.

      Comment


      • #18
        I'm not saying that this all of a sudden makes them a terrible team in terms of drafting, but you have to admit that the media portrays the Patriots as almost god-like in their talent evaluation and being able to pick out the very best. Portraying Belichick as so good that he just toys with everyone else. This certainly doesn't mean Belichick is bad at the draft--just human. Other recent drafts also bring this evidence to mind.

        Obviously we've already covered most of 2007, but even Merriweather, who is the one player still on the team, has been questioned as to whether or not he will ever be a factor on the Patriots. At that certainly doesn't have anything to do with their depth either at safety or CB. The year before wasn't much better. Looking at the 1st day, they got nothing special.

        2006:
        1st Laurence Maroney--Hasn't carried the load the last two seasons. Patriots might be thinking McFadden in 2008. What does that say about Maroney? That he hasn't been able to cross the 850 yard mark much less the 1,000 yard mark in 2 years. By contrast, such studs as Justin Fargas, Ladell Betts and Julius Jones have done so in the two years he's been in the league. Superstars Ernest Graham and Ryan Grant both outpaced Maroney last year.
        2nd Chad Jackson--13 catches, 152 yards, 3 TDs in 12 games in 2 years.
        3rd David Thomas--Has had exactly 1 good game in 2 years. Injured last year.
        Hit
        4th Stephen Gostkowski--very solid kicker. He's not a stud, but he has a solid 82% accuracy. He's only made 1 50 yarder in 2 years.

        This is the list of names the Patriots have drafted in the 3-year span from 2005-2003

        2005
        Mankins, Logan
        Kaczur, Nick
        Hobbs, Ellis
        Sanders, James
        Claridge, Ryan
        Cassel, Matt
        Stokes, Andy
        2004
        Wilfork, Vince
        Watson, Ben
        Hill, Marquise
        Scott, Guss
        Reid, Dexter
        Cobbs, Cedric
        Sam, P.K.
        Morton, Christian
        2003
        Warren , Ty DT
        Wilson, Eugene DB
        Johnson, Bethel
        Klecko, Dan DT
        Samuel, Asante DB
        Koppen, Dan C
        Kingsbury, Kliff
        Nead, Spencer TE
        Kelley, Ethan NT
        Banta-Cain, Tully

        In that period of time, the Patriots have drafted two studs (Wilfork, Samuel) and two or three good to very good players (Warren, Koppen, Mankins). And 3 of those players came in one year. After that you have role players (Wilson, Hobbs) and busts (Watson, Bethel Johnson). There really hasn't been much of note beyond those 3 players. And as already mentioned, the 2007 and 2006 drafts leave even more to be desired.

        Again, I'm not saying that the drafts have been bad although I'm sure that people are going to rip into me for that. And I'm not saying my favorite team has been better although I'm sure that people will bring that up to refute my argument as well. I'm just saying that Belichick is human. He had a pretty good draft bringing in Wilfork, Koppen and Samuel in the same year and 2001 with Seymour and Light in the same draft was good as well. But if Belichick were truly good, he would not be coming up with average or slightly below average drafts the last few years.

        What you're seeing here is a bit of chance. When you have a good year (like 2003), the law of averages states that you will likely have a regression to the mean (2006 and 2007) to balance it out.

        If the law of averages is truly what is determining this success/failure rate, then maybe we can see the draft as what it is--a crapshoot. Or at the very best, a game of educated guesses.

        Yes, even when the Patriots are on the clock.

        Oldie but a goodie.

        Comment


        • #19
          So is this directed to the draft being a crapshoot and it really doesn't involve the Patriots at all? Thats the way the end of that post makes it seem. All I know is that I believe the Patriots have put together some really solid drafts and have been all about building the team through the draft, but last year the team focused on FA's and other veterans.

          This year, the Patriots clearly are focused on adding young talent through the draft and rightfully so. We cut ties with a few players who did a lot for this team, but now the Pats seem to be looking to add a new crop of young talent - especially on defense.

          Comment


          • #20
            Its just that people proclaim the Patriots as draft gods and such draftgingers. But they aren't. They are just as good as other people but are willing to make a few moves that hsve helped them..um like Tom Brady. Only 2-5 teams have draft picks like that in 50 years. So the Pats got lucky and luck may have run out cheaters! lol
            my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
            <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
            <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
            <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
            Originally posted by Hermstheman83
            What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Don Vito View Post
              So is this directed to the draft being a crapshoot and it really doesn't involve the Patriots at all? Thats the way the end of that post makes it seem. All I know is that I believe the Patriots have put together some really solid drafts and have been all about building the team through the draft, but last year the team focused on FA's and other veterans.

              This year, the Patriots clearly are focused on adding young talent through the draft and rightfully so. We cut ties with a few players who did a lot for this team, but now the Pats seem to be looking to add a new crop of young talent - especially on defense.
              It's directed at the idea of the Patriots being godly when it comes to drafting. My point is that they are not, but that they really are not much better than most.

              Oldie but a goodie.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
                It's directed at the idea of the Patriots being godly when it comes to drafting. My point is that they are not, but that they really are not much better than most.
                I know the Patriots are widely disliked, but I think it is ridiculous to consider them "not better than most" at the draft. I am a Patriots fan but I wouldn't consider this homerish of me. The Patriots have built through the draft for the most part and have consistently been a contender for the majority of a decade. There may be some teams that have been better drafters, such as Indy or maybe San Diego, but this years draft will show how good the Patriots are at drafting considering this draft we shouldn't be trading picks away and we will be completely focused on adding new talent.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The pats are a top 5 team drafting wise but not number one.
                  my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                  <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                  <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                  <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                  Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                  What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Don Vito View Post
                    I know the Patriots are widely disliked, but I think it is ridiculous to consider them "not better than most" at the draft. I am a Patriots fan but I wouldn't consider this homerish of me. The Patriots have built through the draft for the most part and have consistently been a contender for the majority of a decade. There may be some teams that have been better drafters, such as Indy or maybe San Diego, but this years draft will show how good the Patriots are at drafting considering this draft we shouldn't be trading picks away and we will be completely focused on adding new talent.
                    You took a vital comparative adjective out of my statement there. The quote was, "they really are not much better than most." This is to say that they are better than most (not all), and that the gap is not that great between them and most teams.

                    Apparently I have to add bold and italics emphasis on every pivotal word in my posts...

                    I love the "building through the draft" comment too. Rodney Harrison, Rosey Colvin (no longer with the team, I know), Junior Seau, Adalius Thomas, Donte Stallworth, Wes Welker, Randy Moss, etc. Those were all free agents who played big roles on the team the last two years. Heck, nearly every part of their record setting passing offense was not from the team--and that was because of the failure of draft picks like Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson.

                    But hey, they build through the draft.

































                    [how does it feel to have a qualifying word/phrase taken out of a quote?]

                    Oldie but a goodie.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Patriots drafts since Bill Belichick took over:

                      2007 - Brandon Meriweather
                      Mike Richardson is on the team as well. Both should get some playing time this year. This draft also netted Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

                      2006 - Laurence Maroney, Stephen Gostkowski, Ryan O'Callaghan
                      Three productive picks from this draft so far. Maroney started to break out towards the end of the year, Gostkowski is a solid kicker, and O'Callaghan was a fifth-round starter. Chad Jackson, David Thomas, Le Kevin Smith, and Willie Andrews are still on the team.

                      2005 - Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur, James Sanders
                      Mankins is one of the top three or so guards in the league, and Hobbs/Kaczur/Sanders are all starters as well. Four starters in one draft is very impressive, especially when one is a Pro Bowler.

                      2004 - Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson
                      Two starters. Vince Wilfork is an absolute beast and perhaps the best 3-4 nose tackle in the NFL, and Ben Watson has been a productive starter as well, causing mismatches on the field.

                      2003 - Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta-Cain
                      Warren is one of the best ends in the league, Wilson was a decent starter for a few years, Samuel is one of the best corners around, Koppen is one of the best centers in the league, and TBC was a decent starter.

                      2002 - Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, Jarvis Green, David Givens
                      Four very solid players. Graham and Givens eventually landed huge contracts with other teams after producing, Deion Branch was very productive and landed a first-round pick, and Green has looked good in situational work.

                      2001 - Richard Seymour, Matt Light
                      The first two picks are both Pro Bowlers.

                      2000 - Tom Brady
                      The rest of the draft wasn't good, but they also didn't have a first-round pick and I think Brady covers for the rest of the draft pretty well.

                      To summarize, I have decided to go through the round-by-round. To determine success rate, a starter is one point, a backup is half, and a bust is zero. I don't count incompletes, and so I divide the number of points by the number of picks, not counting incompletes.

                      First Round: Seymour, Graham, Warren, Wilfork, Watson, Mankins, Maroney, Meriweather

                      No busts there. All but Graham are still on the team, and are starters, with the exception of Meriweather, who hasn't really had any opportunities.

                      Starters: 7 (6 remain)
                      Backups: 0
                      Busts: 0
                      Incomplete: 1 (1 remains)

                      Success Rate: 100%

                      Second Round: Klemm, Light, Branch, Wilson, Johnson, Hill, Jackson

                      Klemm and Johnson were busts. Light, Branch, and Wilson were starters. Marquise Hill died and Chad Jackson hasn't had any chances, so they're incomplete. The team also traded for Wes Welker.*

                      Starters: 3 (1 remains)*
                      Backups: 0
                      Busts: 2 (0 remain)
                      Incomplete: 2 (1 remains)

                      Success Rate: 60%

                      Third Round: Redmond, Williams, Scott, Hobbs, Kaczur, Thomas

                      Redmond was a decent fullback. I'll list him as a backup even though he started a bit. Scott and Williams were busts. Hobbs and Kaczur are starters. David Thomas has been hurt, and is incomplete.

                      Starters: 2 (2 remain)
                      Backups: 1 (0 remain)
                      Busts: 2 (0 remain)
                      Incomplete: 1 (1 remains)

                      Success Rate: 50%

                      Fourth Round: Randall, Jones, Holloway, Davey, Green, Klecko, Samuel, Reid, Cobbs, Sanders, Mills, Gostkowski, Brown

                      Randall was a decent backup, so was Jones. Holloway and Davey were busts. Jarvis is a spot starter who I'll list as a backup. Klecko was a decent backup. Asante Samuel was a great starter. Reid and Cobbs were busts. Sanders is a starter, so is Gostkowski. Mills was a bust (I guess, he was just injured and then was a RFA signing or something), and Brown was a bust.

                      Starters: 3 (2 remain)
                      Backups: 4 (1 remains)
                      Busts: 6 (0 remain)
                      Incomplete: 0 (0 remain)

                      Success Rate: 38%

                      Fifth Round: Stachelski, Marriott, Akbar, Koppen, Sam, Claridge, O'Callaghan, Oldenburg

                      The first three I don't even remember, so busts. Koppen is a great starter. Sam and Claridge were busts. O'Callaghan was a starter for about half of his rookie year and started a bit last year. Oldenburg was a bust.

                      Starters: 2 (2 remain)
                      Backups: 0 (0 remain)
                      Busts: 5 (0 remain)
                      Incomplete: 0 (0 remain)

                      Success Rate: 29%

                      Sixth Round: Harris, Brady, Nugent, Love, Myles, Kingsbury, Mincey, Stevenson, Smith, Rogers, Richardson, Hairston, Hilliard

                      Harris stuck around as a backup for a long time. He's on the Browns now. Brady is self-explanatory. Nugent/Love/Myles/Kingsbury/Mincey/Stevenson/Rogers/Hairston/Hilliard are busts. Richardson is a backup.

                      Starters: 1 (1 remains)
                      Backups: 2 (1 remains)
                      Busts: 9 (0 remain)
                      Incomplete: 0 (0 remain)

                      Success Rate: 17%

                      Seventh Round: Tisdale, Pass, Pochman, Turner, Womack, Givens, Nead, Banta-Cain, Kelley, Morton, Cassel, Stokes, Andrews, Lua, Elgin

                      Don't remember Tisdale or Turner - busts. Pass was a starter. Pochman was a bust, but started for a bit with someone else (Tampa Bay?) Womack was a backup, Givens/Banta-Cain were starters. Nead was a bust, Kelley was a backup, Cassel is a backup, Morton was a bust, Stokes was a bust, Lua was a bust, Elgin was a bust.

                      Starters: 3 (0 remain)
                      Backups: 3 (1 remains)
                      Busts: 8 (0 remain)
                      Incomplete: 0 (0 remain)

                      Success Rate: 32%

                      Take all that for what you will! It took a pretty long time to do that all!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
                        You took a vital comparative adjective out of my statement there. The quote was, "they really are not much better than most." This is to say that they are better than most (not all), and that the gap is not that great between them and most teams.

                        Apparently I have to add bold and italics emphasis on every pivotal word in my posts...

                        I love the "building through the draft" comment too. Rodney Harrison, Rosey Colvin (no longer with the team, I know), Junior Seau, Adalius Thomas, Donte Stallworth, Wes Welker, Randy Moss, etc. Those were all free agents who played big roles on the team the last two years. Heck, nearly every part of their record setting passing offense was not from the team--and that was because of the failure of draft picks like Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson.

                        But hey, they build through the draft.
                        QB: Tom Brady (Drafted)
                        RB: Laurence Maroney (Drafted)
                        WR: Randy Moss
                        WR: Wes Welker
                        TE: Ben Watson (Drafted)
                        OT: Matt Light (Drafted)
                        OT: Nick Kaczur (Drafted)
                        OG: Logan Mankins (Drafted)
                        OG: Stephen Neal (UDFA)
                        C: Dan Koppen (Drafted)

                        Total: 9/11 career Patriots.

                        DE: Ty Warren (Drafted)
                        DE: Richard Seymour (Drafted)
                        DT: Vince Wilfork (Drafted)
                        LB: Rosevelt Colvin
                        LB: Tedy Bruschi (Drafted)
                        LB: Mike Vrabel
                        LB: Adalius Thomas
                        CB: Asante Samuel (Drafted)
                        CB: Ellis Hobbs (Drafted)
                        FS: James Sanders (Drafted)
                        SS: Rodney Harrison

                        Total: 7/11 career Patriots.

                        I'd say 16/22 is pretty damn good.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          it sounds good..i would take the time and do it with every team to see who has the best ratio. i would say pats are top 5 or so
                          my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                          <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                          <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                          <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                          Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                          What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            great evidence Raven.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              only way it is good if you can compare it to every team.
                              my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                              <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                              <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                              <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                              Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                              What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                You can nitpick all you want and get defensive all you want, but you must remember we traded away draft picks to get both Moss and Welker. I am not denying the fact that we have players that we did not draft who have made huge impacts on the team's success. I believe the Patriots are one of the best drafting franchises in the NFL.

                                You took a vital comparative adjective out of my statement there. The quote was, "they really are not much better than most." This is to say that they are better than most (not all), and that the gap is not that great between them and most teams.
                                OK, I am sorry. I think you are overthinking everything here a little bit too much and that blended with the anti-Patriots sentiment created this post. I mean you have pretty much gone from saying first that the Patriots had a poor 2007 draft, to the entire draft being a crapshoot a few posts ago, to the Patriots being "better than most (not all), and that the gap is not that great between them and most teams" when it comes to drafting.

                                You have made three different points here; you've said the Patriots had a bad draft last year, the whole draft is a crapshoot, and the Patriots are better than most teams at drafting. I really do not know what you are trying to say/prove at all in this thread besides maybe the fact that your knowledge of grammar and usage of bolding and italicizing is superior to mine.

                                Comment

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