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  • Kyle Orton vs Matt Cassell

    This is not your typical player A vs player B thread. I am not comparing as to who you think is better right now, but more along the lines of how things will shape up for these two young journeyman who have a great opportunity in front of them.

    Both these QBs are 6'4, 26 years old, and have been journeymen/back-ups (Orton has started in a season previous to this one).

    Now both these two players have been traded from their previous teams, after getting the opportunity to start, and playing very well. Cassell is currently on the Chiefs and Orton is on the Broncos, both young teams with up and coming offenses.

    Now if you go strictly by stats last year obviously Cassell played better than Orton...

    Cassell YDS 3693 %63.4 YPA 7.16 TD 21 INT 11 RAT 89.4
    Orton YDS 2972 %58.5 YPA 6.4 TD 18 INT 12 RAT 79.6

    However looking at it Orton did very well with much much less, while injured during the latter part of the season, and also not playing in a shotgun oriented system which Cassell played in, the same scheme that got Brady 50 TDs.

    My whole point is to say that Orton is being severely underrated, meanwhile Cassell is being severely overrated. Both are 26 and both have a great chance to become great players in the NFL. Orton will now be playing in the offense that Cassell played in along with a much better offense than what he was given with the Bears, he will be getting a solid group of TEs, a pro bowler in Brandon Marshall, a great young WR in Eddie Royal, and also a great slot man when healthy Tony Scheffler (sp?). Matt Cassell will be downgrading from Randy Moss and Wes Welker, to a great future pro bowler in Dwayne Bowe, a HoF TE who is, face it, on the downside of his career, and a bunch of scrub WRs. Neither run game is spectacular but I'll give the edge to Chiefs with a great trio of Jamaal Charles, Kolby Smith, and LJ, but the offensive line for the Broncos played great last year, and I'll give Denver the edge there. Now the odds are a bit more even, and I think believe it or not Kyle Orton will be the better of the two QBs in the near future.

    This argument is a bit moot, seeing as how it is two ordinary journeyman QBs, but your thoughts are appreciated.

    Bone Krusher, the best

  • #2
    I like Orton for the year he's going to be in Denver. I think he and Brandon Marshall (assuming he's not suspended all that long) are going to become best friends. A big, physical target like Marshall is what Orton was missing in Chicago.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good topic and I agree that Orton has been getting a bad rap and Cassel has been some what overrated this off season my thing is will Orton really get a fair shot we all know Cassel will?

      Edit: The only thing I really disagree with is what you said about Gonzo people keep saying he is on downside of his career but I could argue he just got done playing his best season.
      Last edited by Splat; 04-05-2009, 04:13 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think Orton will do better between the two this year. That is of course, assuming he plays. The Broncos may be eyeing another QB in the draft (Sanchez) or trade (I've heard Quinn is still a possibility?). Its pretty much a foregone conclusion, barring injury, that Cassel will start. But assuming both are healthy and starting, I'd say Orton out produces Cassel.

        Comment


        • #5
          I do agree the Orton could have success in Denver. Chicago's offense/personnel was about as QB unfriendly as it gets with no established receivers and most of your offense being short plays which makes the defense even more compact against you. While the Patriots as as conductive to QB success as any offense in the league with talent and wide open scheme.

          Actually looking at them Cassell looks to be a little better physically with his legs and he seems to have a stronger arm, though I could be off on that one because I don't see Orton a whole lot.

          But overall I think Orton has been more underrated than Cassell being overrated, QB is the most important position on the field so if a guy has the chance to be that then you take a chance on him. Especially considering the Chiefs only gave up a 2nd rounder for him. I think if given the chance though Orton could play really well this year and it's why I don't think they should draft a QB early.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BuddyCHRIST View Post
            I do agree the Orton could have success in Denver. Chicago's offense/personnel was about as QB unfriendly as it gets with no established receivers and most of your offense being short plays which makes the defense even more compact against you.
            Umm...that's because of Orton. When Grossman was QB we would go deep all the time.


            Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BuddyCHRIST View Post
              Actually looking at them Cassell looks to be a little better physically with his legs and he seems to have a stronger arm, though I could be off on that one because I don't see Orton a whole lot.
              Orton really doesn't have that bad of an arm, he's just not very accurate throwing beyond about 20 yards. There were a lot of times last year where Hester beat his man and was running wide open deep only to then be severely over or under thrown by Orton. (To be fair too, he did get a few on target that Hester just flat out dropped. He's still learning to get comfortable as a receiver.)

              Also, I don't see the Broncos drafting a QB in the first round. McDaniels is this supposed offensive genius who just turned a 7th round pick into an above average NFL QB. I think they need to do what it takes to land Raji in round 1, even if it means trading up a bit, in order to have the big NT as the centerpiece to your defense. Then use the other one on Maualuga, Tyson Jackson or a corner. Then draft someone like McGee later on as I think he'd be a perfect fit.

              Comment


              • #8
                This is not a knock on Orton at all, I think he can be successful. But Malaka is puerly hating on Cassel. First of all, the coaching around Cassel now is greater than it was for offensive minds than it was in NE. Gailey and Haley are quite greater than a 32 year old ball boy like McDaniels. So I think Cassel will take greater strides this year than he did all of last year. I think peopel are underrating the coaching Cassel has around him and how that will only make him better. He has a soon to be stud at LT and depending how they draft the Chiefs line could be better than Denvers, so that has no relevance.

                A bunch of scrubs around him? Tony G on the down side of his career after having the best year of his career and is only 33. He is comming of a year where he showed not to lose ONE step. Dwayne Bowe is a WR o the rise and will only get better. Haley has proven he makes WR's only better. Marty Booker Bobby Engram and Terrel Owens had their best years while Haley being their position coach. Bobby Engram, Will Franklin, Mark Bradley are not bad options for a number 2 WR and number 3 options in the pass game. In 8 games last year Bradley comming off the street had 30 catches 330 yards. Not bad in only 8 games. Jamaal Charles is a home run threat everyone he touches the ball and Gailey will utilize him properly with swing routes and dump passes. LJ and Kolby are ehhh and that has nothing to do with Cassel so I have no Idea why you brought that up Malaka.

                Now if you wanna talk about their skillsets and intangibles, that's hard. You only read good things about both. Cassel is superior mobility wise for sure and can make plays with his feet like he did last year.

                I love reading stuff like this about QB's though, from the mouth of his coach, Haley:
                "I just came off two years of working with one of the best guys I've ever been around in Kurt Warner," said Haley, who as Arizona's offensive coordinator coached Warner. "In best guys, I mean guys that are into football, like to talk about football. It's not about much else for Kurt Warner. This Matt Cassel feels and acts a lot the same way. He is football 24/7 to the point where I've had to pull back the reins on him a couple of times and say, 'Listen, Matt. These next couple of months are about getting in shape and getting your body ready for the season. There's time enough for football.'

                "He's all about football. I've been telling everyone I hope he can play because he's got all of the intangible things you get excited about as a coach."



                But hey we can all find quotes like that.

                I thik no one is overrating Cassel, no one saying he will win them a ring, he was a top 7 Qb last year in a great system yes, but maybe not having Randy Moss and a lack of o-line in the biggest difference. So maybe he will be in the 9-13 range. Whch is very realistic. He isin't going to a Pop Warner system either pal.


                Also, look at what Chan Gailey got out of Tyler Thigpen with that ****** team around him.

                Pass Yds 2608 TD 18 INT 12 Yds/Game 186.3 QB Rating 76.0 in only 14 games (look alot like Orton's in less games with a worse defense and some better talent around him)

                just saying.
                Last edited by bored of education; 04-05-2009, 05:30 PM.
                my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Last year, Tony Gonzalez was the best TE in the NFL. He had, arguably, his BEST SEASON. Do your research before you spout of stupid crap like "a HoF TE who is, face it, on the downside of his career". Did you even do your research before you posted that?

                  Number 1 TE in receptions, yards and tds? Where is the downside? How has he lost a step? 96 receptions, 1058 yards and 10 tds with Croyle, Huard and Thigpen throwing to him.

                  This might be the homer talking, but I've had to read comments like that about Tony for years and all he does is continue to dominate at the position like few before him. I'm getting sick and tired of those kind of comments. Do some research.
                  Last edited by vidae; 04-05-2009, 05:36 PM.

                  Originally posted by fenikz
                  His soft D really turns me off
                  ** RIP themaninblack. You will be missed. **

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bored of education View Post
                    This is not a knock on Orton at all, I think he can be successful. But Malaka is puerly hating on Cassel. First of all, the coaching around Cassel now is greater than it was for offensive minds than it was in NE. Gailey and Haley are quite greater than a 32 year old ball boy like McDaniels. So I think Cassel will take greater strides this year than he did all of last year. I think peopel are underrating the coaching Cassel has around him and how that will only make him better. He has a soon to be stud at LT and depending how they draft the Chiefs line could be better than Denvers, so that has no relevance.

                    A bunch of scrubs around him? Tony G on the down side of his career after having the best year of his career and is only 33. He is comming of a year where he showed not to lose ONE step. Dwayne Bowe is a WR o the rise and will only get better. Haley has proven he makes WR's only better. Marty Booker Bobby Engram and Terrel Owens had their best years while Haley being their position coach. Bobby Engram, Will Franklin, Mark Bradley are not bad options for a number 2 WR and number 3 options in the pass game. In 8 games last year Bradley comming off the street had 30 catches 330 yards. Not bad in only 8 games. Jamaal Charles is a home run threat everyone he touches the ball and Gailey will utilize him properly with swing routes and dump passes. LJ and Kolby are ehhh and that has nothing to do with Cassel so I have no Idea why you brought that up Malaka.

                    Now if you wanna talk about their skillsets and intangibles, that's hard. You only read good things about both. Cassel is superior mobility wise for sure and can make plays with his feet like he did last year.

                    I love reading stuff like this about QB's though, from the mouth of his coach, Haley:
                    "I just came off two years of working with one of the best guys I've ever been around in Kurt Warner," said Haley, who as Arizona's offensive coordinator coached Warner. "In best guys, I mean guys that are into football, like to talk about football. It's not about much else for Kurt Warner. This Matt Cassel feels and acts a lot the same way. He is football 24/7 to the point where I've had to pull back the reins on him a couple of times and say, 'Listen, Matt. These next couple of months are about getting in shape and getting your body ready for the season. There's time enough for football.'

                    "He's all about football. I've been telling everyone I hope he can play because he's got all of the intangible things you get excited about as a coach."



                    But hey we can all find quotes like that.

                    I thik no oe is overrating Cassel, he was a top 7 Qb last year in a great system yes, but maybe not having Randy Moss and a lack of o-line in the biggest difference. So maybe he will be in the 9-13 range. Whch is very realistic. He isin't going to a Pop Warner system either pal.
                    I don't hate Cassell I only said those things in IRC to piss you off lol.

                    I like them both and think they both have a good future in the NFL, but I just am confused as to why people are in love with Cassell and Orton gets no props for doing pretty well with much less. I think Orton will be better than Cassell but thats just my honest opinion.

                    P.S: Don't get so offended Chiefs fans, I don't think Cassell will suck, and what I meant with Tony G is that he is 33, I know he had a great season, but he isn't going to be so good forever, chill Chiefs fans chill.

                    Bone Krusher, the best

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also, look at what Chan Gailey got out of Tyler Thigpen with that ****** team around him.

                      Pass Yds 2608 TD 18 INT 12 Yds/Game 186.3 QB Rating 76.0 in only 14 games (look alot like Orton's in less games with a worse defense and some better talent around him)

                      just saying.
                      __________________
                      my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                      <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                      <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                      <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                      Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                      What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bored of education View Post
                        Also, look at what Chan Gailey got out of Tyler Thigpen with that ****** team around him.

                        Pass Yds 2608 TD 18 INT 12 Yds/Game 186.3 QB Rating 76.0 in only 14 games (look alot like Orton's in less games with a worse defense and some better talent around him)

                        just saying.
                        __________________
                        Chan Gailey was running a HS offense to fit Tyler Thigpenzzz, and how many wins did they happen to have with Thigpenzzz at the helm of the offense? No matter how good his stats were. Also Orton was injured at the end of the year, he played 15 games missed most of another and played hobbled for a couple more.

                        Bone Krusher, the best

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Malaka View Post
                          Chan Gailey was running a HS offense to fit Tyler Thigpenzzz, and how many wins did they happen to have with Thigpenzzz at the helm of the offense? No matter how good his stats were. Also Orton was injured at the end of the year, he played 15 games missed most of another and played hobbled for a couple more.
                          I think that helps the coaching argument. Gailey brought in a mikey mouse offense to fit his QB. I see the same happening with Cassel, Gailey bringing in an offense that brings out the best in his qb... with better results.


                          Cassel did win 11 games last year, and don't give me look at who he had around him ********!
                          my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                          <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                          <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                          <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                          Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                          What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bored of education View Post
                            I think that helps the coaching argument. Gailey brought in a mikey mouse offense to fit his QB. I see the same happening with Cassel, Gailey bringing in an offense that brings out the best in his qb... with better results.


                            Cassel did win 11 games last year, and don't give me look at who he had around him ********!
                            I never brought up Cassell winning games or not.

                            The Chiefs weren't going to win games with a HS offense and they didn't, Thigpen would make 1 make 1 read scramble, and try to find someone open or take off.

                            Cassell won 11 games and I will say look who he had around him, if the Patriots defense was near the bottom of the league, do you think he would have won 11 games? If his best receiver was Devin Hester... would he have won 11 games?... no...

                            Bone Krusher, the best

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I believe somebody has got to be pretty dumb to say that Orton had less of a team around him in Chicago than what the Chiefs had. I honestly believe they were a Tony Gonzalez away from being in a coin-flip with the Lions at the combine.

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