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Troy Aikman- HOF worthy?

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  • #46
    The fact that he WILL get in should really end this silly debate.

    Some of the points being made here make me think you guys were 5 years old when you watched this era of football.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
      The fact that he WILL get in should really end this silly debate.

      Some of the points being made here make me think you guys were 5 years old when you watched this era of football.
      They WERE only 5 years old.

      Remember that plenty of posters on this site (maybe the majority) can't even legally consume alcohol yet.

      You can't know the greatness of Troy Aikman by looking at his stats.

      I'll put it this way -- the QB that Madden slobbers over the most after Farve is Aikman. There is a reason for that.

      Comment


      • #48
        I tried to keep out of this thread cause I'm a Cowboy fan that doesn't want to look biased. But Cowboy's media hype hasn't gotten anyone into the Hall of Fame. If that was the case then there would be more than 9 players in the Hall of Fame. I know it looks like I'm biased because I'm a Cowboy fan, but how can a team that has accomplished so much in history have less players in the Hall than teams with lesser wins. Hell there are more Redskins in the Hall of Fame than the Cowboys, but the Cowboys have more Division titles, Playoff wins, Conference Championships, Super Bowl wins, and head to head wins over them. I'll be the first to tell you that I hate the Redskins with a passion, but I'm throwing out facts here.

        Aikman deserves to be in the Hall not based on his wins. I don't give QBs credit for team success. He deserves to be in because he stepped up like a Hall of Famer when they needed him to. He just had a great supporting cast around him that dwindled his numbers. But he was a huge factor in winning crucial games when the passing game needed it. There were better quarterbacks than him, but he still was always top 5 in minimum in his prime. If he played on another team he'd have close to 50,000 yards and more touchdowns. Besides if Steve Young can go in first ballot Troy should too. Steve was good too, but you can make a similar argument that he was just in a good offense with a legendary receiver. Besides the real person to argue for is Darren Woodson. I've seen people argue for Brian Dawkins, John Lynch, and Steve Atwater, but Woody deserves to be in just as much, if not more than them. But when his time comes I'm sure people will disregard his role on a top defense that won 3 Super Bowls because "he was only seen as good because of Cowboy media hype."
        "If you have one finger pointing at somebody, you have three pointing towards yourself."
        ~Nigerian Proverb

        Da riddum is too much for you.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nKx27QrgO0

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        • #49
          To preface this, I absolutely loathe the Cowboys. I am a Packer fan and I grew up watching the Cowboys beat the Packers in the playoffs.

          That being said, Aikman is definitely a HOFer, I don't think he should have been first ballot, but there is no doubt he should be in.

          The Packers of the early-mid 90s were no where near as talented as the Cowboys. It wasn't until 96-97 that the Packers had great teams. The Packers of the early 90s were Brett Favre and Sterling Sharpe, and thats it.
          I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
          Hunter S. Thompson

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          • #50
            He IS in already. That's not the debate.
            The debate is do you think he deserves to be in.

            I'll call him a Game Manager. You can call him a team player.
            You can argue all you want of what he COULD have done.
            I'll just stick to what he DIDN'T do.
            He put up avg stats on a great team.

            As for 6 Pro Bowls? I'll go back to T. Holt.
            He's been to 7 and been All Pro twice (1st n 2nd team)
            Still, Holt needs to prove himself.


            Football is a team sport but you go to the HOF based on your indivisual accomplishments... plus rings.
            -Boston Red Sox-New England Patriots-Boston Celtics-

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Nalej View Post
              He IS in already. That's not the debate.
              The debate is do you think he deserves to be in.

              I'll call him a Game Manager. You can call him a team player. I call him a THE leader of the team in that era. So would the rest of 90's cowboys.
              You can argue all you want of what he COULD have done.
              I'll just stick to what he DIDN'T do. QB of 3 SB winning teams, one of which he was the MVP,an All-Pro and made it to multiple pro bowls. What else do you want.
              He put up avg stats on a great team. As burns already mentioned, on a run heavy team. But seriously how do question a players value purely based on stats?

              As for 6 Pro Bowls? I'll go back to T. Holt.
              He's been to 7 and been All Pro twice (1st n 2nd team)
              Still, Holt needs to prove himself.


              Football is a team sport but you go to the HOF based on your indivisual accomplishments... plus rings.
              Responses in bold.

              Did you ever watch him play in the early to mid 90's? You've seem to rely to heavily on stats.

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              • #52
                No, I'm betting all this guy did was look at stats.

                Anyone on here who was around to see Aikman play knows his worth.

                He was FIRST BALLOT..

                We're not talking Art Monk here. You don't make it in on the first ballot if you aren't worthy.

                Maybe we can look at some of the seniors who got in and say they didn't quite deserve it. For example, you would have a much better argument going after Bob Hayes. You have no argument going after a first ballot HoFer like Aikman.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Nalej View Post
                  He IS in already. That's not the debate.
                  The debate is do you think he deserves to be in.

                  I'll call him a Game Manager. You can call him a team player.
                  You can argue all you want of what he COULD have done.
                  I'll just stick to what he DIDN'T do.
                  He put up avg stats on a great team.

                  As for 6 Pro Bowls? I'll go back to T. Holt.
                  He's been to 7 and been All Pro twice (1st n 2nd team)
                  Still, Holt needs to prove himself.


                  Football is a team sport but you go to the HOF based on your indivisual accomplishments... plus rings.
                  Holt doesn't need to prove himself to me. If he got in the Hall I'd be all for it. He was one of the most consistent and fundamentally sound wideouts in his prime. Him and Marvin Harrison are really in the same boat if you ask me. Both guys are skilled receivers in great offenses. Both have a ring. Both guys got less hype opposed to bigger receivers in size and mouth in Moss, T.O., and they even talked about Keyshawn more than those two. Only difference is that Harrison has better numbers and didn't have Wayne his whole career. But you can easily say that Bruce and Faulk would take stats away from Torry, Harrison is 3 years older, and that Holt didn't have Peyton. The biggest factor for HOF is how you stack them compared to other wide outs of their time. Irvin easily gets in because his stats and impact were neck and neck with the top WRs(Rice, Carter, and Brown). Plus Irvin played with the all time leading rusher that took away stats, and an injury forced him into retirement. You can make an argument for Irvin being elite in his heyday against the receivers I just named. Can we say the same for Holt? Moss, T.O., and Harrison are obviously making the Hall barring stupid politics. Ater that then who else? Steve Smith can make a run if he has 3 or 4 more seasons like he usually has. Same thing with Anquan Boldin. Chad Johnson has some serious numbers too. What point do you say no to any more receivers from a particular era? Isaac Bruce deserves a mention too. After all he was Torry's teammate, and the number one guy for Torry's early years when he was developing.

                  Honestly I'd put Moss, T.O., Harrison, Holt, and Bruce in at this point if it were up to me. If Smith and Boldin stay on pace I'd put them in too. There's no limit to how many of a certain type of player I'd put in. If they're elite for an extended period of time(6-8 years IMO) then they have my vote.
                  "If you have one finger pointing at somebody, you have three pointing towards yourself."
                  ~Nigerian Proverb

                  Da riddum is too much for you.
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nKx27QrgO0

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                  • #54
                    Yes and Torry Holt is a HOF as well.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Burns336 View Post
                      No, I'm betting all this guy did was look at stats.

                      Anyone on here who was around to see Aikman play knows his worth.

                      He was FIRST BALLOT..

                      We're not talking Art Monk here. You don't make it in on the first ballot if you aren't worthy.

                      Maybe we can look at some of the seniors who got in and say they didn't quite deserve it. For example, you would have a much better argument going after Bob Hayes. You have no argument going after a first ballot HoFer like Aikman.
                      No way did Aikman deserve to be a first ballot hall of famer. That should be reserved for the creme de la creme. Aikman undoubtedly deserves to be in the HOF, but not on his first ballot.
                      I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
                      Hunter S. Thompson

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by E-Man View Post
                        I tried to keep out of this thread cause I'm a Cowboy fan that doesn't want to look biased. But Cowboy's media hype hasn't gotten anyone into the Hall of Fame. If that was the case then there would be more than 9 players in the Hall of Fame. I know it looks like I'm biased because I'm a Cowboy fan, but how can a team that has accomplished so much in history have less players in the Hall than teams with lesser wins. Hell there are more Redskins in the Hall of Fame than the Cowboys, but the Cowboys have more Division titles, Playoff wins, Conference Championships, Super Bowl wins, and head to head wins over them. I'll be the first to tell you that I hate the Redskins with a passion, but I'm throwing out facts here.

                        Aikman deserves to be in the Hall not based on his wins. I don't give QBs credit for team success. He deserves to be in because he stepped up like a Hall of Famer when they needed him to. He just had a great supporting cast around him that dwindled his numbers. But he was a huge factor in winning crucial games when the passing game needed it. There were better quarterbacks than him, but he still was always top 5 in minimum in his prime. If he played on another team he'd have close to 50,000 yards and more touchdowns. Besides if Steve Young can go in first ballot Troy should too. Steve was good too, but you can make a similar argument that he was just in a good offense with a legendary receiver. Besides the real person to argue for is Darren Woodson. I've seen people argue for Brian Dawkins, John Lynch, and Steve Atwater, but Woody deserves to be in just as much, if not more than them. But when his time comes I'm sure people will disregard his role on a top defense that won 3 Super Bowls because "he was only seen as good because of Cowboy media hype."
                        This is a load of bogus, if you want to talk about media bias in the HoF how about a team that has been to 6 Super Bowls and has exactly 2 people in the HoF. I will say, HoF voters put WAY too much stock into postseason stats and team success, ie all those Steelers in the HoF. I mean, Randy Gradishar from all I've read and heard was one of the best LB's ever, yet he hasn't sniffed the HoF.
                        And Steve Atwater was better than Darren Woodson. But both those guys should be in, however neither will because they didn't put up the "sexy" stats.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by awfullyquiet View Post
                          again, always the question is, do the rings make you HoF worthy?

                          handing it off to arguably the second greatest RB of all time, and the greatest run blocking OLs of all time... i believe you could plug quite a few good qb's in there and watch them flourish. good qb's do not make the HoF.
                          Once you add the 's' to the end of 'ring' then the answer to that question is almost always yes. Rings hold more bearing other stat or number you can produce. Because, after all, you play to win the game.

                          To tell the truth, regular season statistics are about the most worthless thing you can measure a player's greatness. All it can do is point you in the general direction of "was he good or not." True greatness shines in big, meaningful games, not in week five against some scrub (cough Peyton cough).

                          Let's look at Troy's postseason stats. He played exactly 16 postseason games in his career, a perfect number to compare it to his regular season stats.

                          Record: 11-5 in the postseason (3 Superbowl wins)
                          320 Completions
                          502 Attempts
                          3849 Yards
                          63.7% 7.7 YPA
                          23 Touchdowns
                          17 Interceptions
                          88.3 QB Rating

                          Far better than even his regular season performance. Looks to me like Troy Aikman played his best in the biggest games of his career. Now that a Hall of Famer.

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                          • #58
                            Aikman as a first ballot HOF, lol. [Turns out he was, LOL @ me!]

                            We're talking about a guy who threw more than 20 TDs only once is his career, that's pathetic. 16 game seasons, and he averaged exactly 1 TD pass per game played: 165 TDs and 141 INTs in 165 GS/165 GP. He couldn't even average 8.0 passing yards per attempt in one season in his career, when he had Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper.

                            Now credit where it's due, the Cowboys drafted Aikman first overall and he helped win a Super Bowl (the other two, meh). So he delivered on that great expectation, and not just as a first overall pick QB but as a first overall pick QB for a franchise that was in the dumps. That's big. And of course, he was a great player in his time. He was part of one of the NFL's dynasties. That all automatically earns him the discussion/debate.

                            But not HOF worthy. The problem with Aikman imo is that he wasn't truly great for a long enough period of time nor was he good enough for a much longer period of time. He falls just shy in the former, and the concussions aren't enough to excuse the latter.

                            Maybe he was your childhood hero/idol, I loved the guy when I was younger, but let's get a grip. He was more the product of Jimmy Johnson and the running game. Once the former left and the latter declined, Aikman dropped off hard.

                            In his last four seasons (97-00) as the starting QB of the Cowboys, Aikman "led" the Cowboys to a 24-28 record and the once super-accurate passer couldn't even muster a 60 percent completion rate in one single season.

                            This is the Hall of Fame. The Greatest of the Great. You put Aikman in, heck you might as well put Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, and God knows who else in the years to come.

                            [Edit: Okay Aikman is already in. Brain fart. And I can live with it, although I hope guys like Simms, Esiason, and whoever questionable in the years to come don't get a free pass.]
                            Last edited by Geo; 04-21-2009, 09:19 PM.
                            Pugnacity, testosterone, truculence, and belligerence.

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                            • #59
                              Ken Anderson should be in!
                              my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
                              <TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
                              <+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
                              <+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
                              Originally posted by Hermstheman83
                              What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.

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                              • #60
                                All this talk of the 90's NFL makes me want to watch some old Niners DVDs of Steve and Jerry.

                                BTW, Geo has a nice post there.

                                Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

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