Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Players that re-defined the current game

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by the decider13 View Post
    You mean there was a time when people didn't want a tall, freakishly fast receiver? Interesting.
    i was faster!


    I vote Bob Hayes

    Comment


    • #47
      If you look at the NFL prior to 2004 what you will find is Tight Ends were not used as receivers: there were a few way back in the day, Kellen Winslow Sr., Sharpe, but it is only recently that the position has become pass first. I would credit the emergence of Tony Gonzalez as the primary reason the position has changed the way it has. Now every TE needs to have some history in basketball, NFL scouts are now in the gyms looking for the next Antonio Gates, even though they find a few busts like Jai Lewis. (points for whoever remembers him)


      On a side note, can announcers please stop talking about what Tony Gonzalez did on the B-Ball court more than a decade ago? Is it still a relevant piece of information? Is there anyone who doesn't know that Tony and Antonio placed basketball once upon a time?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by njx9
        i dunno, if buddy ryan doesn't have the personnel, the 46 is a bizarre footnote in history. further, if say, ken anderson or joe montana weren't pretty solid passers, or dan fouts couldn't chuck the ball around, does anyone now care who bill walsh or don coryell were?

        (clearly the reverse is true, if montana spent his career running the play action stuff that was typical at the time, does anyone know his name?)
        What made Walsh great was he wouldn't try to make players fit his system, he had a system that he wanted run a certain way and scouted to that system. He got Craig so he had a passing threat out of the backfield, Montana because he was accurate and had a high "Football IQ" (I hate using that term), despite not having a cannon arm.

        The WCO was all about short throws that would pick up 4-5 yards but you take those high percentage plays and next thing you know, you've throw 8 passes and moved 60 yards. What Green Bay is doing now, is a fine example of what Walsh was doing, but they are a bit more pass-heavy, obviously a result of rule changes which have made passing easier.

        I think someone said this already, but the offense was all about timing, to where you could run plays in the dark. Hell, Walsh scouted defense as well as he could offense. The guy just knew football players.

        Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Shiver View Post
          If you look at the NFL prior to 2004 what you will find is Tight Ends were not used as receivers: there were a few way back in the day, Kellen Winslow Sr., Sharpe, but it is only recently that the position has become pass first. I would credit the emergence of Tony Gonzalez as the primary reason the position has changed the way it has. Now every TE needs to have some history in basketball, NFL scouts are now in the gyms looking for the next Antonio Gates, even though they find a few busts like Jai Lewis. (points for whoever remembers him)


          On a side note, can announcers please stop talking about what Tony Gonzalez did on the B-Ball court more than a decade ago? Is it still a relevant piece of information? Is there anyone who doesn't know that Tony and Antonio placed basketball once upon a time?
          they played basketball?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by the decider13 View Post
            You mean there was a time when people didn't want a tall, freakishly fast receiver? Interesting.
            Haha, I knew this was coming. What I meant was that it made lots of teams feel like they need a 6'3" 4.4 minimum receiver on their team and it got a lot of receivers drafted rounds earlier than they would have been otherwise. He made measurables a prerequisite to some teams looking at first round WRs and made a lot of people think WRs without those tools could never be a #1.

            Here's another one: Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandarich made the term "can't miss prospect" into an oxymoron.

            I didn't know Gonzalez had a basketball history. He'd replace Gates in my other post. I almost put him in anyway because throughout most of his career he has been on another planet than his competition.
            Last edited by umphrey; 12-09-2009, 04:07 PM.

            Thanks to BK for the sig

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by umphrey View Post
              Randy Moss is the reason everyone wants a 6'4"+ receiver who runs a 4.3.

              No, pro teams have always been looking for big WR's with speed.
              Peyton Manning brought pre-snap audibles to an entire new level.

              Well, you do know that well into the 60's QB's called their own plays. They, not OC's decided the play to call and they changed the play at the line of scrimmage if they wanted to. Peyton is just a throw back to those eras.
              Tom Brady made "intangibles" about 6 times more important.

              While scouting has got a lot more sophisticated in the last 60 years, intangibles have long been recognized as being important.
              Devin Hester, although not doing as well now, made kick returner a much more important position. It went from kicker value to more like a 23rd starter.

              Hardly! Great kick returners have always existed.
              Steve Hutchinson showed teams what good guard play could do for a team.

              Hardly! There were many OG's who showed what a solid guard can do.
              Ed Reed brought ball hawking, free lancing safety to an entire new level (for better and worse).

              Dwight Freeney created a new prototype for speed rushing defensive ends.

              Antonio Gates made a lot of teams look to the basketball courts for undiscovered gems or upgrade prospects based on a basketball past at the TE position.

              More of a one time exception.

              These are all current gen players because I've only been watching football for so long. Also there may have been others to do these things first. If so I'd be curious to know.
              nice try for a newcomer to the game.
              And proud of it!!!

              Comment


              • #52
                Wow i can't believed no one mention the best pass rusher of all time Deacon Jones

                Comment


                • #53
                  Thought I'd mention a few things.

                  Don Shula invented the zone defense with the Colts.

                  Al Davis invented the bump and run way back in the American Football League.

                  The Los Angeles Rams were the 1st team in the 50's to actually scout college players and in one season back in the 50's they got something like 17 starters from one draft. As you can guess, other team soon followed the Rams methods. Before the Rams, teams used All American lists to decide who to draft. They never actually scouted the players.

                  According to Dungy, Chuck Noll invented the Cover 2 Defense back with the great Steeler teams of the 70's.

                  Paul Brown introduced the substitution of players when he rotated one of his OG's on every play in order to send in plays to his QB.

                  If anybody changed some rules for the better, it was Tatum, a safety for the Raiders in the 70's I believe. He was absolutely the worst head hunter I ever saw play the game and was very lucky to not have killed a player during his career.

                  The 2 great CB's for the Raiders back in the 70's( not exactly remembering the decade) got a rule changed when they covered their hands with stick um enabling them to intercept a lot more thrown balls.

                  Deacon Jones got the rules changed for playing on the DL. As a DE he used the head slap to get the OT off guard before beating him and sacking the QB.

                  I could go on but that is all that come to mind right now. If I think of any more I'll post them later.
                  And proud of it!!!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Its amazing that so much wrong can fit into one post. Over/Under 5 years he has been watching football?
                    Originally posted by Mr. Goosemahn
                    The APS is strong in this one.
                    Originally posted by killxswitch
                    Tears for Fears is better than whatever it is you happen to be thinking about right now.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      My favorite was 'Steve Hutchinson showed teams what good guard play could do.'

                      Fellow, guards have been affecting games since before vertical passing was in the rulebook.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        This guy


                        The fact that Bob Hayes was only mentioned a couple times makes me sad.

                        We're talking about the player who was the the main driving force behind the biggest schematic expansion of defensive coverages in NFL history.

                        And, really, this has become two threads. There's rare guys who had a clear effect on how the game developed (Hayes, Deacon Jones, Mike Ditka, etc.) and then there's guys who help shift the expectations for their position or establish a new standard of excellence (Ronnie Lott, Shannon Sharpe, Anthony Munoz, etc.).

                        There's a pretty big difference there.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by njx9
                          wait, you mean how jeremy shockey, todd heap, frank wycheck, freddie jones, wesley walls, ben coates, and, say, eric green were all used as primary receiving targets at various points between 1997 and 2002 (i got lazy)?

                          or do you mean how guys like derek brown, johnny mitchell, irv smith, kyle brady, and rickey dudley (1992-1996) were all drafted in the first round with the hope that they could catch effectively (funny that they were all crap)?

                          i call bs.

                          No one on that list produced like a top-tier receiver except for Shockey who is very much in the vein athletically as Tony Gonzalez. They put up productive seasons back in the day, but compared to today's game they would be mediocre at best. Heath Miller would be the second best TE in the game back in the 90s, in fact his numbers now equal those TEs you mentioned and he has three games to play, but he isn't even top-5 at his position now, maybe not even top-10. We might have eight TE with 800 yards receiver and three with 1,000 yards receiving. The position has been redefined. Of that list only Coates has more than 1 season over 800 yards, something that players like Witten and Gates do annually.
                          Last edited by Shiver; 12-09-2009, 05:41 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
                            This guy


                            The fact that Bob Hayes was only mentioned a couple times makes me sad.

                            We're talking about the player who was the the main driving force behind the biggest schematic expansion of defensive coverages in NFL history.

                            And, really, this has become two threads. There's rare guys who had a clear effect on how the game developed (Hayes, Deacon Jones, Mike Ditka, etc.) and then there's guys who help shift the expectations for their position or establish a new standard of excellence (Ronnie Lott, Shannon Sharpe, Anthony Munoz, etc.).

                            There's a pretty big difference there.
                            Well, I think Bob Hayes was also seen as the guy who partnered up with Haynes to use stick um to help intercept passes. It kind of brought him down a peg or 2 having to use a sticky substance on his hands to intercept passes.
                            Ditto for Deacon Jones who invented the head slap to better rush the passser, a move no longer legal in the NFL.
                            And proud of it!!!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Iamcanadian View Post
                              Well, I think Bob Hayes was also seen as the guy who partnered up with Haynes to use stick um to help intercept passes. It kind of brought him down a peg or 2 having to use a sticky substance on his hands to intercept passes.
                              Ditto for Deacon Jones who invented the head slap to better rush the passser, a move no longer legal in the NFL.
                              Lester Hayes (stickem guy) and Mike Haynes Raider corners.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Iamcanadian View Post
                                Well, I think Bob Hayes was also seen as the guy who partnered up with Haynes to use stick um to help intercept passes. It kind of brought him down a peg or 2 having to use a sticky substance on his hands to intercept passes.
                                Ditto for Deacon Jones who invented the head slap to better rush the passser, a move no longer legal in the NFL.
                                by that logic Roy Williams should be mentioned

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X

                                Debug Information