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  • #46
    Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
    Sorry, I was speaking more generally to the direction of the thread and not as much towards you.
    I didn't mean to imply that Schaub is only successful because of AJ, I just haven't been sold on him yet as a near elite QB, probably because I haven't watched him enough. From what I have seen he's not as good as his numbers, which are fantastic, but IMO are over-inflated because he's asked to throw so much since that's where their best talent is. I'm not saying he isn't a good QB or even a top 10 QB (see my rankings further up the page), I was just hoping someone who's seen him play a lot more than me could break down his play and convince me that he's a near elite QB so that when I watch the Texans this year I know what to be looking for. Plus I've got a buddy who's a texans fan so I'm probably going to be betting on their games fairly regularly with him so a little research doesn't hurt.

    BK

    Originally posted by AcheTen
    JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
    Originally posted by abaddon41_80
    Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
    Originally posted by JBCX
    Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by griff122 View Post
      Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

      Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?
      If Schaub was clutch then the game wouldnt be down to a field goal.

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      • #48
        I like Schaub. I have him as a top 10 guy.

        He reminds me an awful lot of Phillip Rivers when you evaluate his skill set. When you look at the #s both qbs put up, they are awfully similar. And Rivers has better weapons than Schaub.

        Now of course #s don't tell the whole story, so I won't use that as the main basis of my argument, but when you evaluate them they are very similar.

        Same arm strength (draw), similar accuracy (slight nod to Rivers), similar pocket presence but Schaub is more mobile (nod to Schaub), presnap adjustments are the same (draw), both do a good job of identifying hot routes (draw), both do a good job making reads and anticipating routes (slight nod to Rivers), etc.

        They're very close as players. Which goes back to why I don't get why they are viewed so differently by so many people. Schaub is a slightly less accurate but more mobile version of Phillip Rivers. Just watch them play. Watch them play, then tell me that they aren't almost identical as players. Same quick release, same everything. They are very similar players.

        I will say this though, Rivers is clearly the more clutch qb. And he's more proven as well, and yes, that does count for something.

        I don't want to hear about how Schaub has Andre Johnson. Give me a better reason than that. So does Peyton suck bc he has Wayne, Clark, Addai, Garcon, and Collie? Does Brady suck bc he has Randy Moss? Rivers with Gates and VJax? Romo with Austin, Witten, and now Dez?

        Schaub is legit. He's better than Matt Ryan (for now), who has been very prematurely annointed as the next Peyton Manning by the media.
        Last edited by bigbluedefense; 07-31-2010, 07:05 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by yourfavestoner View Post
          Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

          I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

          I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.
          I don't waste my time arguing it anymore. It's pretty clear to me that when it comes to Eli, people who hate him will always hate him and find new excuses to hate him (even though Eli's pretty much shot down just about every knock that people have made of him over the years), and those that like him will always like him. There's no medium with Eli.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by njx9
            I watched this, but the thing that stood out to me was how ridiculous Andre Johnson was in that game.

            Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

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            • #51
              Originally posted by njx9
              makes me wonder how different the world would be if the lions had taken him instead of rogers.
              probably not much different

              Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

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              • #52
                Originally posted by njx9
                i just finished watching a bunch of schaub highlights and i think you're missing something between rivers and schaub that causes some off the differentiation. i've seen rivers make some 'wow' throws. i have never seen schaub make a wow throw. i couldn't find a good example of what i mean by that for rivers, but take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example. there isn't a throw schaub makes that a starting nfl qb shouldn't make every single time. that doesn't mean i think he's worse, he still made all of the throws, but there's nothing there that's going to elevate my perception of him.

                that said, if you ignore some of the little quirks in throwing motion, then you're absolutely right: every ball either throws looks remarkably similar.
                What in particular do you mean by wow throw? Because if you're talking about a throw that was bulleted in between 3 defenders with pinpoint velocity, I don't think you'll see that from either of these guys. Neither of them have the arm strength to make what I interpret as a wow throw (see Brett Favre, Jay Cutler).

                Now, if you mean a deadly accurate ball that was put in the breadbasket with perfectly timed anticipation, then yes, Rivers does that quite a bit. He's probably the most accurate qb in the league, and that is one distinguishing characteristic between him and Schaub. To be fair though, I think Schaub is pretty accurate himself. He's not inaccurate, let's put it that way. He's got plenty of accuracy to make all the throws, as you have pointed out.

                Contrarily however, Schaub has more mobility than Rivers. And that's another difference, but this one favors Schaub. Again, to be fair, their pocket presence is a draw. Schaub is more mobile, but his presence in the pocket is almost identical to Rivers.

                Which all goes back to me saying that Schaub is a less accurate but more mobile version of Rivers.

                Even their numbers are relatively the same by comparison. The release is somewhat different, but both snap the ball out quickly and almost at the same release point as well.

                They really are very similar, to me, the main difference being Rivers being the superior qb in the 2 minute drill.
                Last edited by bigbluedefense; 07-31-2010, 12:29 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
                  What in particular do you mean by wow throw? Because if you're talking about a throw that was bulleted in between 3 defenders with pinpoint velocity, I don't think you'll see that from either of these guys. Neither of them have the arm strength to make what I interpret as a wow throw (see Brett Favre, Jay Cutler).
                  I'm glad there are a few non-fans who can look past the picks and see that he can make some damn fine throws. After a few years of watching Kyle Orton's dead ducks beyond 20 yards, the very first game I watched with Cutler blew me away with just how awesome of an arm he's got.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BeerBaron View Post
                    I'm glad there are a few non-fans who can look past the picks and see that he can make some damn fine throws. After a few years of watching Kyle Orton's dead ducks beyond 20 yards, the very first game I watched with Cutler blew me away with just how awesome of an arm he's got.
                    I'm a Jay Cutler fan. I think in the right environment, he can thrive and reestablish himself as a top 10 qb in this league.

                    Having that said, Cutler threads the needle way too much for his own good, and it got exposed this year with his INT totals. He needs to do a better job of looking off defenders.

                    But I think he'll get there. I don't know if Martz was the right guy to be his OC in Chicago, but I think Cutler will eventually get back to form once they put more talent around him.

                    If Lovie gets fired and Gary Kubiak gets fired, Chicago needs to take a long hard look at Kubiak.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by jayceheathman View Post
                      If Schaub was clutch then the game wouldnt be down to a field goal.
                      Then Tom Brady shouldn't get credit for being clutch then in a lot of his wins. Especially in the playoffs where a lot of his "clutch moments" have come down to an Adam Vinatieri field goal. I know this discussion isn't about Tom Brady, but you can't really fault Matt Schaub for playing his role. If his kicker misses a field goal, especially one that is a chip shot, it doesn't mean that Schaub hasn't done his job by putting his team in a spot to win the ball game.

                      Originally posted by njx9
                      i just finished watching a bunch of schaub highlights and i think you're missing something between rivers and schaub that causes some off the differentiation. i've seen rivers make some 'wow' throws. i have never seen schaub make a wow throw. i couldn't find a good example of what i mean by that for rivers, but take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example. there isn't a throw schaub makes that a starting nfl qb shouldn't make every single time. that doesn't mean i think he's worse, he still made all of the throws, but there's nothing there that's going to elevate my perception of him.

                      that said, if you ignore some of the little quirks in throwing motion, then you're absolutely right: every ball either throws looks remarkably similar.
                      I disagree. Schaub is a lot more accurate than a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL. If most quarterbacks could throw the ball like Matt Schaub does, then it would be easier to find a franchise signal caller. That pass to Andre Davis down the middle between three defenders is not something a lot of starters in this league can make. Even if they could, a quarterback's instincts and quick decision making aren't something that can always be coached in my opinion. The "it" factor if you will. Schaub has that trait.
                      Last edited by Ness; 07-31-2010, 01:05 PM.

                      "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
                      -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
                      Originally posted by Borat
                      Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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                      • #56
                        Schaub is a Top Ten QB, no doubt. At this point, I'd probably put him 6th on my list. As has been stated, he has poise, accuracy, mobility to get it done.

                        One of the things I do like about Schaub is his decision making ability. It's not Peyton Manning, but he makes very good decisions. People talk about Andre Johnson making him what he is, but Schaub knows when to throw to Andre and what he can do, what balls he can get, and coverages he can beat. Look early last year, Schaub utilized Owen Daniels almost more than Johnson. He knows who to get the ball to and when, and that is an underrated quality.

                        I loved Schaub when he came out of school, and on the Falcons, this hasn't changed.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Shane P. Hallam View Post
                          Schaub is a Top Ten QB, no doubt. At this point, I'd probably put him 6th on my list. As has been stated, he has poise, accuracy, mobility to get it done.

                          One of the things I do like about Schaub is his decision making ability. It's not Peyton Manning, but he makes very good decisions. People talk about Andre Johnson making him what he is, but Schaub knows when to throw to Andre and what he can do, what balls he can get, and coverages he can beat. Look early last year, Schaub utilized Owen Daniels almost more than Johnson. He knows who to get the ball to and when, and that is an underrated quality.

                          I loved Schaub when he came out of school, and on the Falcons, this hasn't changed.
                          That might actually be a good thing if Houston gets to the playoffs.

                          "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
                          -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
                          Originally posted by Borat
                          Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
                            They really are very similar, to me, the main difference being Rivers being the superior qb in the 2 minute drill.
                            This is basically what it comes down to. I would have said that the difference between Schaub and Rivers prior to the 2009 season was basically nil, but Rivers showed a lot with his late game performances down the stretch for San Diego.

                            In general, I think the difference in the "wow throw" category comes down partially to the fact that when it comes to pass deep to a receivers back shoulder, Rivers has to throw it a lot closer to the defensive back. Jackson and Floyd aren't generating the kid of space that Johnson creates, and neither are quite as good at that last second contact then separation before the catch as AJ is.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by njx9
                              and maybe that's true. i'm still trying to catch up on some highlights, but from what i've seen to this point, he hasn't made a throw that i don't think 70% of the rest of the nfl couldn't have made. that said, he's seemed to make that throw every single time, which *would* distinguish him from most other nfl qbs. again, i'm not suggesting that it's a negative, just that i haven't seen anything special. if you have a youtube that you think is a particularly good example of throws most other guys couldn't make, other than the one i think we disagree on, i'd love to see it.
                              Eh, I could care less about the "wow" throws. Aarron Brooks made a boatload of those when he was with New Orleans, but his decision making was inconsistent. And those go hand in hand.

                              Schaub gets the job done and that is what matters. He has a lot of velocity on his ball and the spiral is usually nice as well. And he's pretty accurate. One throw I don't think a lot of quarterbacks can consistently make is that throw to Andre Davis between three defenders that was on the highlight reel you showcased. I can't picture someone like David Garrard or Troy Edwards making that throw.

                              "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
                              -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
                              Originally posted by Borat
                              Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by njx9
                                and maybe that's true. i'm still trying to catch up on some highlights, but from what i've seen to this point, he hasn't made a throw that i don't think 70% of the rest of the nfl couldn't have made. that said, he's seemed to make that throw every single time, which *would* distinguish him from most other nfl qbs. again, i'm not suggesting that it's a negative, just that i haven't seen anything special. if you have a youtube that you think is a particularly good example of throws most other guys couldn't make, other than the one i think we disagree on, i'd love to see it.



                                is this really any different than any other big arm qb? elway did it, favre did it... not suggesting cutler is a future hall of famer, but i think it gets overblown way too much (not that i think you're doing that).



                                for schaub/rivers, this is exactly what i mean. off the top of my head, i remember a couple of rivers throws in the senior bowl and in his last bowl game at nc state (yes, college, not nfl, i know, but it's all that's coming to mind) that were just incredible, pinpoint passes. i don't think i've seen a similar throw from schaub that left my jaw hanging. again, not a bad thing and not indicative that he's a bad qb, but i think if he had some of those moments, more people would rate him higher or at least as high.
                                Cutler: it does get overblown too much. It's still something he should work on, especially after seeing him force so many throws last year. I think a big reason for that was bc he lacked talent to work with and for every wow throw he made, law of averages tells you he's gonna throw that pick too if you force it too much, which he did last year. I think he did it bc he was trying to make diamonds out of dog youknowwhat.

                                I've seen Schaub put it in some spots that made me say wow. Not as regularly as Rivers, but he does it.

                                Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
                                This is basically what it comes down to. I would have said that the difference between Schaub and Rivers prior to the 2009 season was basically nil, but Rivers showed a lot with his late game performances down the stretch for San Diego.

                                In general, I think the difference in the "wow throw" category comes down partially to the fact that when it comes to pass deep to a receivers back shoulder, Rivers has to throw it a lot closer to the defensive back. Jackson and Floyd aren't generating the kid of space that Johnson creates, and neither are quite as good at that last second contact then separation before the catch as AJ is.[/b]
                                The opposite end of that spectrum is bc Rivers has such huge targets, he just has to throw it up there and let them get it. I've seen him do this quite a bit, and he admitted himself that when he sees his guys in single coverage, he just throws it deep down the field and let's them make a play (there's nothing wrong with that btw). AJ Smith knows River's limitations (physically), that's why he drafts such big targets. Every single guy on that roster is huge. And Turner's scheme is perfect for Rivers as well. Give the organization credit, they identified the perfect scheme for their qb and the type of WR he needs. That's good scouting.

                                So I don't know if you can count that for or against either guy.

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