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  • #61
    Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
    So I don't know if you can count that for or against either guy.
    I hope that's not how my statement came across.

    I was just implicating that the Chargers deep pass attack tends to make the throws look more exciting because Jackson and Floyd use their height and jumping to make catches over defensive backs. Meanwhile, the Texans deep pass attack tends to make things look a tad bit easier because, while Andre Johnson could be making those catches like Jackson and Floyd do, he has the speed to create real space.

    Both quarterback benefit hugely from the size of their targets, but Schaub doesn't have to throw as many balls near defensive backs because he can lead Johnson so much. I wasn't trying to knock either offensive system. In fact, I love what the Chargers have done from a conceptual standpoint (which is hard for me to admit).
    Last edited by Paranoidmoonduck; 07-31-2010, 03:11 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
      I hope that's not how my statement came across.

      I was just implicating that the Chargers deep pass attack tends to make the throws look more exciting because Jackson and Floyd use their height and jumping to make catches over defensive backs. Meanwhile, the Texans deep pass attack tends to make things look a tad bit easier because, while Andre Johnson could be making those catches like Jackson and Floyd do, he has the speed to create real space.

      Both quarterback benefit hugely from the size of their targets, but Schaub doesn't have to throw as many balls near defensive backs because he can lead Johnson so much. I wasn't trying to knock either offensive system. In fact, I love what the Chargers have done form a conceptual standpoint (which is hard for me to admit).
      Oh ok, I understand now.

      Yeah, I agree, I love what the Chargers have done conceptually on offense. I think they have potentially the most dangerous passing attack in the league, for the simple fact that, how do you cover them all? You can't draw up schemes to cover size. If you blitz, that lives 1 big guy in single coverage in a hot route, and that's very tough to cover no matter how talented your defense is.

      And if you sit back, you give them ample time to run those deep routes, isolate DBs, and play jumpball.

      And if you drop everyone back to take all of that away, you give Rivers a nice checkdown in Sproles, who can generate tons of yac in space bc the WRs cleared out the underneath for him to make people miss.

      It's a great scheme. I still stand by my beilef that they made a huge mistake passing on Dez Bryant in this draft. If you added Dez to that core with Jackson and Gates in that vertical scheme that uses size to its advantage, I think they would have easily been the best offense in the league.

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      • #63
        I think part of the issue for San Diego is how much they've struggled to keep ball-control. Sure, they crank out yardage in the passing game like it's nothing, but since Tomlinson fell off, they've struggled to keep their defense off the field. Their system back when Tomlinson and Turner were around was perhaps better fitting to the team, because they could hold the ball for a long time and when they got the lead and the other offense was forced to pass, their pass rush took over.

        I love the Chargers offense, but I also get that with a defense that is something less than brilliant even if Merriman has a nice year, being able to hold onto the ball and extend your possession time needs to be a huge priority. In regards to the Dez Bryant thing, I sort of see where you're coming at, but I imagine it hinges entirely on your attitude towards Ryan Mathews. I happen to think the Matthews pick was great, that he's going to be a great player, and that it does a lot more towards improving the playoffs chances than maximizing one aspect of the team would.

        And yes, admitting all this about the Chargers slowly kills me inside. I can only hope that this year is a good one for Oakland and that they can make a huge step towards winning the division down the road, but I think the Chargers, if that offense can achieve balance and that defense takes just a small step forward, will probably be the best team in the AFC. They've been my Superbowl choice for months now.


        Side note:
        With all this talk of the size of the Chargers and the stretching of the defense they attain, how long will it be before we start seeing an emphasis on bigger defensive backs? This would have to start young, with colleges placing athletes at corner or safety instead of wide receiver, but the size difference in that matchup has been skewed in favor of wide receivers for a long time now. Teams should be placing a premium on having a guy who can protect the deep ball without having an insane vertical, but instead through size and strength. Right now there's a lack of options there, but maybe Robert Sands can turn out to be the guy I thought Taylor Mays could have been to help set this in motion.

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        • #64
          Yeah, one of the main reasons why I thought Dez would have been a much better pick is bc I view Dez as a stud, and I view Mathews as a run of the mill RB.

          Mathews to me is Matt Forte. Does everything well, but nothing great. I feel you can find those kind of backs at any point in the draft. I definitely don't see Mathews as a guy worthy of a top 12 pick. No way.

          I understand the need for a RB, I just don't understand moving up to take Ryan Mathews. He is not worth what they gave up for him.

          As for bigger CBs, I don't know if that will be a trend. Ideally, you want a bigger CB with speed to boot, it's just hard finding them. And with the rule changes, a CB without speed is as useful as a typewriter.

          CBs as a whole have become more valuable than they already are. We just saw a draft where teams reached for CBs early because with teams running 3 WRs so often nowadays, having 3 good CBs is not a luxury anymore, its a necessity.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by njx9
            that's a horrific analogy, bordering on strawman.
            Disagree completely.



            Originally posted by njx9
            and no one's talking about either of them as anything more than bottom 5 starters in the league. but it's just not, imo, a 'special' throw that only a few guys could've made. it was a pass that most nfl quarterbacks should make the majority of the time. but again, my argument was to the perception of schaub not being a top qb, not to whether or not he actually is.
            I think only a handful of quarterbacks are going to be able to make that throw on a consistent basis. And those are the ones that are very precise in their throws. I think that is what separates the respectable starters from the rest of the other quarterbacks in the NFL. I disagree that that throw in particular is a throw that most quarterbacks should be able to make. Because most don't. At least not on Sundays...unless you're one of the top dogs in the NFL at QB.

            "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
            -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
            Originally posted by Borat
            Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
              With all this talk of the size of the Chargers and the stretching of the defense they attain, how long will it be before we start seeing an emphasis on bigger defensive backs? This would have to start young, with colleges placing athletes at corner or safety instead of wide receiver, but the size difference in that matchup has been skewed in favor of wide receivers for a long time now. Teams should be placing a premium on having a guy who can protect the deep ball without having an insane vertical, but instead through size and strength. Right now there's a lack of options there, but maybe Robert Sands can turn out to be the guy I thought Taylor Mays could have been to help set this in motion.
              If I could find a guy that was potentially a "big CB" I would wager that he hit a spurt in college, because guys that are fast and big in HS end up playing LB.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Brent View Post
                If I could find a guy that was potentially a "big CB" I would wager that he hit a spurt in college, because guys that are fast and big in HS end up playing LB.
                I was more refering to height rather than bulk, so maybe Mays was a bad example. I just see a lot of tall athletes go into college labeled as DB's or ATH's and they almost uniformly become wide receivers so long as they have decent hands. I'm just curious if that will shift at some point when a team keeps those guys at corner or safety and try to build a truly dominant pass defense. That said, we'd have to see someone defy that conventional wisdom first.

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                • #68
                  What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by MetSox17 View Post
                    What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.
                    Because the way NFL offenses are heading, guys are left 1 on 1 more and more as offenses load the field with receivers.

                    I think you can find a benefit for taking a guy with safety size at corner (like, say, Asomugha), but when it comes to trying to stop 6-5 sprinters, it's obvious that most of the league is completely ill-prepared.

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                    • #70
                      Asomugha is a very rare exception, and even then he's not huge, compared to Calvin Johnson and Vincent Jackson and guys like that. I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with. Good work ethic and technique at the corner position will allow you to succeed even if you're shorter than average and have just decent speed.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by MetSox17 View Post
                        I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with.
                        Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

                        Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

                        I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
                          Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

                          Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

                          I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.
                          I said that in response to you mentioning that CFB coaches should start recruiting taller players to play the CB position.

                          How many situations is there in a game where two players are completely even as far as positioning deep down field? Maybe once a game? Twice? Even then, it's a dog fight for the ball. If a CB has better positioning on a WR, it's not like he can just catapult himself off the defender and go up for the ball. I just don't see how it would make such a huge difference that you would need to do something as drastic as changing recruiting, or how you decide who plays what position.

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                          • #73
                            And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

                            I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
                              And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

                              I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.
                              Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.

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                              SSAEL....... its a new revolution!


                              Originally posted by Job
                              On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
                              Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

                              So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by BigDawg819 View Post
                                Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.
                                I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

                                The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

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