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P.Manning vs M.Vick vs J.Elway..Most talented Prospect

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  • #46
    I'll take a QB who's not a "rushing threat" over a QB who's not a passing threat. It's one-dimensional Vick who doesn't belong in the conversation with actual QBs.
    Last edited by Halsey; 09-07-2010, 11:31 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Halsey View Post
      I'll take a QB who's not a "rushing threat" over a QB who's not a passing threat. It's one-dimensional, Vick who doesn't belong in the conversation with actual QBs.
      The debate is simply who was touted as a better prospect. Vick had a great arm to go with his running ability. It just turned out that he never actually figured out how to use it. He was still an unbelievable prospect, and in many opinions better than Peyton.

      No-one is debating who ended up as a better QB.

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      • #48
        I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Halsey View Post
          I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.
          Well that is not true. Ryan Fitzpatrick and Michael Vick are the two extremes in that argument, and I am pretty sure even dog-lovers would prefer Vick starting for their franchise (I am talking pre-prison Vick).
          Last edited by Timbathia; 09-08-2010, 12:53 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Halsey View Post
            I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.
            Interestingly enough, there's a thread around here somewhere asking why QB scouting still sucks....

            The answer is all over the place in this thread... on these boards, etc... "Omg he's fast"...

            "Holy **** can you believe that guy's arm strength"...

            "Billy McBill passed for 56,894 yards and 734 TD's in college"....



            None of it means jack**** in the NFL... Nobody pays attention to the little things... the devil is in the details.

            The blueprint for increasing your odds of hitting on a QB high in the draft has been there for years.... it's not guaranteed, nothing is.. but it certainly increases your chances of hitting and reduces the risk of busting out...


            The hype for guys like Jerrod Johnson and Terrell Pryor as NFL QB prospects is ridiculous... neither of those guys are NFL QB prospects...

            Nobody wants to talk about the Greg McElroy's or the Ben Chappell's or the Nathan Enderle's... unless it's as an after thought...

            Fact is, it's most of the "athletes" that are "ranked" above them that are going to end up being the after thoughts in the NFL 5 years from now...

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            • #51
              Honestly, Elway threw the ball when he was suppose to and ran with it when he got into trouble.

              Michael Vick always seemed like the kind of QB who made one read and then took off running if it wasn't there, especially in college.

              Like many have stated, no doubt Vick was physically gifted and if we're just going off measurements he beat out any one else at the QB position in the history of the league. But if we're counting skill & knowledge, then Manning wins this one for me (as a prospect even).

              As far as him not being the unanimous best prospect of his draft, Leaf was a pretty good prospect himself and we shouldn't rewrite history just because we know he's a bust.

              With all that being said, Vick was still an amazing prospect and right up there with Manning and Elway. I don't think it should be considered a land slide in any of these guys' favor, they all had promise that not many other prospects ever showed.

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              • #52
                Elway was the best prospect IMO. What hurt Vick was really his overall size. He had everything else but he was what 6'1? That's really the only knock I can take at him from a purely physical side.

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                • #53
                  Halsey is just mad that Vick was better than Matt Ryan.
                  Originally posted by SNIPER26
                  fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by njx9
                    ah, yes. peyton's incredible knowledge. that's so amazing, no one else has EVER been smart in the history of the league. being able to stand at the line of scrimmage and point at dbs. so much more important than being able to avoid a sack.

                    it WAS cute though, how you tried to minimize running ability. i'd hate to hear how bad you think randy moss is.

                    Eh, I hear what you are saying, but even if you just look at Peyton this year, he was only sacked 10 times, so he's doing a good job of avoiding it. Elway's career low in sacks were 18 and 20, two years where he played 12 and 13 games(one where he was in his last year, and threw for only 356 attempts, as opposed to Peyton's 571.

                    The only season Elway threw nearly as many attempts as Peyton did this year(his highest two are 551 and 605) he was sacked 38 and 39 times.

                    Beyond that even, he was behind a mediocre line this year(that's being generous), and it wasn't like he was just throwing the ball away, or only throwing dink and dunk plays to get the ball out, his yards per attempt were high as Elway's career high, his completion % was 5.5 points higher than Elway's ever was, and he had 470 more yards total than Elway ever did.

                    Again, I see what you are saying, but Peyton is obviously special in terms of his audibles and line calls, and just flat out getting the ball out quickly.

                    Buying time is nice, but Peyton doesn't have to buy time, because he doesn't need it, and he's better at avoiding sacks for that reason.

                    I could hear the arguments some years about how great the Colts line is, but this year sent me a big message, Peyton isn't going to get sacked a lot no matter who is out there, and he's not going to sacrifice efficiency in his passing game even if he has to get rid of it quicker.
                    Originally posted by SNIPER26
                    fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.

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                    • #55
                      Look, Vick has a lot of fans to this day. I get that. Now that he's just a backup/special package QB, those fans can only talk about how great his physical talent is. That's why they need to talk about comparing his talents to actual great QBs, but don't want to include things like intelligence, leadership ability, communication skills, accuracy, decision making, etc. Things that matter is real QB scouting. They want to limit the conversation to aspects that skew the debate to Vick.

                      Maybe the next Vick thread should be: "Who was More Fun to Play with on Madden: Vick or Brady?"

                      Or maybe: "If the NFL never made the forward pass legal, who would have won more Super Bowls: Vick or Montana?"

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                      • #56
                        IMO the player John Elway resembles most in the modern game, is Ben Roethlisberger. Very similar in that they both scramble to buy time for WRs to get open downfield.

                        The real difference being that Big Ben has the advantage of size/strength that allows him to shed tacklers, while Elway used his wheels to stay a step ahead of defenders.

                        As for 'intelligence', there are a LOT of super-smart QBs in the league who can't translate that concrete understanding of the playbook into performance on the field.

                        Being a great QB is about more than a high Wonderlic.

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                        • #57
                          People are saying Peyton because of his intelligence, but it's not like we knew he would be Peyton in 98. Alex Smith scored like a 49 on the Wonderlic and has sucked. Intelligence is just another attribute. It doesn't always work out; just like arm strength and running speed.

                          Dan Marino scored a 13 on the Wunderlic. A 13 is a couple points above dyslexic. Obviously players can perform without superior intelligence.

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                          • #58
                            Anyone that watched Peyton and Smith knew that Peyton was amazing pre-snap and diagnosing plays, and Smith was only smart in the classroom.
                            Originally posted by SNIPER26
                            fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.

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                            • #59
                              That's not the point though. The point is how many of those things like quickness reading an NFL defense, or ability to command a large number of checkdown plays at the LOS, or capacity for leading full-grown men are known when these guys are prospects?

                              In retrospect, Manning is spectacularly intelligent and capable when it comes to your average NFL QB. No one had a strong hint of that before he was drafted, just whiffs. Hell, even Vick led a pretty average team to the a National Championship game. Someone could be forgiven for thinking he was similarly capable before we saw his lack of work ethic in the NFL.

                              As njx said earlier in this thread (sorry if I misstate this here): Elway was the best prospect, Vick was the most talented prospect. Manning wasn't really quite on par with either, but he turned out the best.

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                              • #60
                                People keep trying to say that intelligence is not an aspect of talent because look at all the smart guys who didn't become great QB's. Does that also mean that arm strength and speed are not part of the talent picture because look at all the strong armed or fast QBs that didn't make it.

                                "Arm strength is not part of the talent picture because JaMarcus Russell!"

                                "Speed is not part of talent picture because Usain Bolt could never play QB in the NFL"

                                Sorry, but the mental side of a QB prospect is part of what scouts evaluate and is part of the overall talent a player has. Go read any QB scouting report and mental aspects are covered.

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