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  • #46
    That would be cool. The only problem is feasibility. As good of an idea as I think it is and as much as the NFL's blatant violation of United States Anti-Trust laws pisses me off...I just don't think it's ever going to change. It's the right thing to do in my opinion, but that doesn't mean it's ever likely to happen.

    R.I.P. Junior Seau

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ElectricEye View Post
      That's a real weak argument IMO. Who is to say an NFL Minor league can't have elite coaching? Hell, the players would probably be coached better just because the focus is on producing talent for the NFL rather than winning at the college level. You would be able to throw out things like spread offenses and "talent around him" factor and just be able to evaluate the player in a professional setting. That's much more useful information than how they preformed in a league where all the good teams basically exploit differences in size and speed.
      Actually it is quite a strong arguement. You are basically saying that there is a need for an NFLJR league for those players that don't want to attend college. Despite that fact that there has been no public outcry by athletes stating that they shouldn't have to attend college to play in the NFL, and that the NFL has no rule in place requiring a player to attend college. Presumably the NFL would need to finance this league, which they have absolutely no reason to do, because there is already a league in place feeding them elite talent - college football. The creation of this league, based on the concept that some players just don't want to attend college, would also be a PR nightmare for the NFL as being against education.

      Who gets to play in this league? Anyone? Could a UFL player play in the NFLJR league? If so then we still have the scenario of a 30 year old NFL vet destroying some 18 year old kid just out of H.S., if not then we have the problem of a bunch of young players no one has ever heard of and no fan has any investement in.

      So we have a bunch of unknown players, playing on brand new teams, most likely in smaller cities, at smaller venues, and you see no reason at all why this league wouldn't be to attract elite coaches and players. Mr. 5 Star Recruit from somewhere in Texas is going to play for the Scranton Thundercats instead of the University of Texas because college isn't for him, and he thinks his draft stock will be just as good? What would be the draw for an elite coach to take a job in the NFLJR league? Surely an elite coach could prove himself as a coordinator in the NFL or at a major college program. So perhaps it is some young assistant who someone thinks has a bright future, but needs to prove himself. So now we have a no name coach, who may have a bright future, coaching unknown players, on brand new teams. Forgive me, but I don't see it.

      Let me preface my final comment by saying that I'm don't really follow college football, I'm more of an NFL fan. With that said it seems to me like the beauty of college football is the history of the institutions, rivalries, and rabid fan base dedicated to a particular institution's team. That's why college football is so popular, and how fans become familiar with a new crop of players every year. Through that fanbase which follows that institutions team so closely you develop the familiarity and investment in the players.

      Maybe it could work, as you can see I have my doubts. I think it would just be another UFL, but no one would recognize any of the players or coaches, and at best a couple of players could make NFL rosters.

      The way I see it if you want to run a marketing firm the best way to do that is to start with getting a degree in marketing. Doesn't mean you have to in order to succeed, but it sure will help. Just like if you want to play in the NFL the best way to start is to play college football. You aren't required to, but it sure will help.
      "If everyone liked the same thing everyone would be after your grandmother."

      My Grandfather

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        Actually it is quite a strong arguement.
        Your original argument was that the coaching received at the college level is required for the NFL.

        Counter to that;

        The coaching received at the NCAA level often times has little to do with NFL success, specifically college offenses.

        There's no reason even better quality coaching couldn't be administered at a hypothetical NFL Minor League.

        The other half of your argument is that it helps teams get information on players. There's really no need to counter that because it's true, but again, at a hypothetical NFL Minor League level, the NFL would have an even greater ability to acquire information within a pro context.



        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        You are basically saying that there is a need for an NFLJR league for those players that don't want to attend college.
        No, I'm not. I'm saying that I would be in favor of one because it's the right thing to do. I've stated a few times here I don't think it's possible.

        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        Despite that fact that there has been no public outcry by athletes stating that they shouldn't have to attend college to play in the NFL, and that the NFL has no rule in place requiring a player to attend college.
        Status quo. Kids grow up knowing it's a stepping stone and wanting to play college football. The NFL might not have a formal rule saying players need to attend college...but can you name one successful player who didn't? What's a potential prospect supposed to do for three years while they wait to be draft eligible? There's no demand for it because the system in place does a very good job of masking the rampant corruption that has shown itself to be consistently prevalent at the highest level of the sport(ie; the Oregon thing that's going to drop soon according to most sources).

        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        Presumably the NFL would need to finance this league, which they have absolutely no reason to do, because there is already a league in place feeding them elite talent - college football.
        That doesn't make it right. As far as having no need to...why not? If the goal here it to compete directly with college football, there's tons of revenue there to steal away and put back into the NFL. I will say that this has gone on for years and that it's more than likely too late for any of this because the system is so thoroughly ingrained.

        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        The creation of this league, based on the concept that some players just don't want to attend college, would also be a PR nightmare for the NFL as being against education.
        Is there a PR nightmare for Major League Baseball or the NHL? I really don't see anyone putting forward that those leagues are against education. Ironically enough, I would say those leagues have the smallest PR problem out of the the four major North American sports. I'll concede that there's other factors at play there too, but I legitimately believe employing a 18 year old kid and working with him in a professional fashion is better for some people in terms of personal well being than dangling possibilities and maybes in front of them for three to four years. What's better? Being put in a working setting where you constantly have to focus in order to improve and compete to advance forward in your career or being wined and dined for a few years then to be dropped in the center of a college campus and told you're god? The last bit is slight hyperbole, but legitimately happens for some of these kids.

        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        Who gets to play in this league? Anyone? Could a UFL player play in the NFLJR league? If so then we still have the scenario of a 30 year old NFL vet destroying some 18 year old kid just out of H.S., if not then we have the problem of a bunch of young players no one has ever heard of and no fan has any investement in.
        Again, I'm not arguing this is possible as things currently stand right now, my main argument is that it's both illegal and immoral for the NFL to use the NCAA as a minor league and to turn away qualified potential employees.


        The rest of the stuff you posted gets into practicality and I agree with most of it. At this point, it's probably not happening. Doesn't make the way things are set up completely right, but it's a fact.

        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
        The way I see it if you want to run a marketing firm the best way to do that is to start with getting a degree in marketing. Doesn't mean you have to in order to succeed, but it sure will help. Just like if you want to play in the NFL the best way to start is to play college football. You aren't required to, but it sure will help.
        This is the only other thing I have a problem with. You're absolutely required to. There's no other viable option to make it into the NFL.


        Few other points on this matter;

        There would be a market for some sort of minor league on the East Coast. Major college football isn't a draw here(mostly due to the lack of traditional powers and not producing the number of big time athletes other areas of the country do) and if you were able to sell it as a legitimate competitive venue, butts would be in the seats and eyeballs would be on the screen, especially assuming it played in the spring.

        American Football was invented and first played widespread on college campuses and that's a major factor in how the current system is set up. The other major sports really don't have the same massive early ties to the college equivalents. However, the NFL is in a unique historical position. For a large part of it's history, college football was just as big of a deal and more popular. During the NFL's rise to power, it wouldn't have been a good move to potentially damage that relationship in any way. Now that the balance has shifted a bit, things are slightly different and that's why we're even able to have this discussion.


        Also, I really don't hate college football like it's probably come across that I do. I don't have a real vested interest in it like some people do and I certainly didn't grow up with it to the extent some of you did...but it's a very good game and a great thing for the kids who participate on an honest level(which is the vast majority of them) as well as the majority of the academic institutions. Compulsory education(which is what this essentially is) along with not respecting the spirit of competition in the workplace gets me going for some reason though. I really don't see any reason as to why people can't make their own choices about how they want to live their lives and work a job that they're qualified for. My personal, ideal situation for this entire thing would be for some sort of realistic, Brandon Jennings path to exist and for the players it would benefit to actually exercise that option. Football isn't going to become an institution in Europe anytime soon despite the NFL's best efforts and even then there's some issues...but yeah, I've spent a lot more time on this topic than I thought I would at this point haha.
        Last edited by ElectricEye; 03-04-2011, 01:49 AM.

        R.I.P. Junior Seau

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        • #49
          I'd just like to point out again, because I think it's important, that if there was some kind of junior league for football, that it wouldn't mean there would be less players getting football scholarships and going to college. It would simply mean that the scholarships that would have gone to the players who joined the Jr league who go to someone else. The number of college football players wouldn't decrease due to a relatively small number of players who went straight to the NJFL.

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          • #50
            You wouldn't need a minor league team for every pro team...I think 8 teams would cut it. Each team would be independantly owned and operated with their own owner, GM and coach out of cities that do not currently have an NFL team but have a sizeable population. Maybe just make it one part of the country at first to cut down on travel expenses.
            Good idea Baron. Teams could dbl. up or pass on it, maybe like:

            West Div.
            Seattle/SF 49ers -- Portland, OR
            SD Bolts/Zona Cards -- LA
            Dallas/Houston -- San Antonio
            St. Louis/KC -- Kansas/Missouri

            East Div.
            Miami Fins/J-ville Jags/Tampa Bay -- Florida
            NY Jets/NY Giants/Philly Eagles -- New Jersey
            Atlanta/NO Saints/ Tennessee -- Birmingham
            NE/Buffalo -- Albany, or
            GB Packers/Minnesota/Bears -- Milwaukee
            Pittsburgh/Cleveland/Cincy -- Canton Bulldogs (!), or
            B-more Ravens/Redskins -- Maryland/VA

            something like that

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            • #51
              Originally posted by yourfavestoner View Post
              Only problem is that the NFL would be forced to own, finance, and supplement the minor league teams. They have a sweetheart deal with the NCAA - a free farm system.
              It's free, but it's not always ideal. NCAA coaches aren't worried about developing players for the NFL. They have huge pressure to win themselves, and just care about that. A D league or junior system would be about developing specifically for the NFL. No spread offenses. It would make it easier in some ways for NFL talent evaluators.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Jughead10 View Post
                It's free, but it's not always ideal. NCAA coaches aren't worried about developing players for the NFL. They have huge pressure to win themselves, and just care about that. A D league or junior system would be about developing specifically for the NFL. No spread offenses. It would make it easier in some ways for NFL talent evaluators.
                There still is no incentive for the NFL to invest any money in a JR league. While you claim the current system isn't ideal (and few things are) it does work and has been extremely successful for both the NFL and college football.
                "If everyone liked the same thing everyone would be after your grandmother."

                My Grandfather

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ElectricEye View Post
                  Again, I'm not arguing this is possible as things currently stand right now, my main argument is that it's both illegal and immoral for the NFL to use the NCAA as a minor league and to turn away qualified potential employees.



                  Also, I really don't hate college football like it's probably come across that I do. I don't have a real vested interest in it like some people do and I certainly didn't grow up with it to the extent some of you did...but it's a very good game and a great thing for the kids who participate on an honest level(which is the vast majority of them) as well as the majority of the academic institutions. Compulsory education(which is what this essentially is) along with not respecting the spirit of competition in the workplace gets me going for some reason though. I really don't see any reason as to why people can't make their own choices about how they want to live their lives and work a job that they're qualified for. My personal, ideal situation for this entire thing would be for some sort of realistic, Brandon Jennings path to exist and for the players it would benefit to actually exercise that option. Football isn't going to become an institution in Europe anytime soon despite the NFL's best efforts and even then there's some issues...but yeah, I've spent a lot more time on this topic than I thought I would at this point haha.
                  You'll have to explain to me a little more how the NFL using college players is illegal or immoral.

                  Also - it seems like you have more of a gripe with the NCAA than the NFL.
                  "If everyone liked the same thing everyone would be after your grandmother."

                  My Grandfather

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                  • #54
                    I don't like the idea as an alternative to playing college football but I do like the idea of minor league football. But I think you would need all 32 teams to have their own team. Since every team has a different system you would want your minor leaguers to play in that system and get comfortable with it so when you decide someone should be called up they know exactly what they are doing.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Ghost of Juice View Post
                      I don't like the idea as an alternative to playing college football but I do like the idea of minor league football. But I think you would need all 32 teams to have their own team. Since every team has a different system you would want your minor leaguers to play in that system and get comfortable with it so when you decide someone should be called up they know exactly what they are doing.
                      Why wouldn't you just expand the practice squad?
                      "If everyone liked the same thing everyone would be after your grandmother."

                      My Grandfather

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Watchman View Post
                        Why wouldn't you just expand the practice squad?
                        Game experience is the best way to develop a player especially QB.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Ghost of Juice View Post
                          Game experience is the best way to develop a player especially QB.
                          I'd like to expand on that. NFL game experience is the best way to develop a player, especially a QB.
                          "If everyone liked the same thing everyone would be after your grandmother."

                          My Grandfather

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Watchman View Post
                            I'd like to expand on that. NFL game experience is the best way to develop a player, especially a QB.
                            Yeah I agree with that but there isn't really any playing time for a young guy that is stuck behind an established veteran.

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                            • #59
                              I liked NFL Europe... They could should bring that back or something similar for the warmer months.

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                              • #60
                                Did NFL Europe make money?


                                Edit - supposedly NFL Europe was losing $30 million a year.
                                "If everyone liked the same thing everyone would be after your grandmother."

                                My Grandfather

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