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Which Corner is the best in the NFC East?

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  • #61
    I find in general that for some reason, people on this board are in love with cornerbacks. Don't know why. Just give me someone who can catch a ball and make a tackle and I'm happy. Especially with the amount of zone and zone blitz packages these days. Shutdown corners are a thing of the past. Everyone else in the NFC East can be happy with their corners and I'll be happy with my pass rush. Sam Madison may not be the best corner in the East anymore, but at 28 years old (the same age of Newman) Sam was way more accomplished than Newman could even dream about. As long as he can catch the poor throws from Bledsoe and Brunell caused by our pass rush, I'll be more than happy.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by DMWSackMachine
      Originally posted by cunningham06
      Originally posted by DMWSackMachine

      Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

      There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

      Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

      Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

      The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.
      I watch plenty of cowboys games, as they most are televised since I live in Texas. I watch all of the teams in the NFC East very closely. I really hope that you aren't serious about saying he is a shutdown corner, because he isn't at all. On these forums I say he is overrated, just take a look at the polls. The best corners in the NFC East are
      1. Sheldon Brown
      2. Shawn Springs
      3. Terence Newman
      You can call me a homer for saying Sheldon is better, but plenty of non Eagles fans agree with me, but Shawn Springs is also better than Terence Newman. I don't like either team over the other, but Springs is a better cornerback than Terence Newman.

      So how exactly is Newman better than either Springs or Brown? So far all I've heard is that he is because he is.
      And all you've said is that he's not because he's not. Lol. I mean, c'mon. I (as well as, I assume, a lot of people on these forums) am a regular subscriber to the Ticket and I watch a ton of games, ok? I watch all the NFC East closely because that is my division, and I watch the Skins a lot because I hate them with such a passion. So I have a very good idea of what I'm talking about.

      Unfortunately, in this particular discussion, there aren't a lot of concrete, substantial facts that can be quoted. You can't use interceptions, tackles or (to a lesser extent) pass deflections to gauge a CBs value, because the no. 1 priority for a cornerback is to make sure that his man does not catch the ball. The best way to do that, is by covering so well that the QB refuses to throw your way. So, essentially, the ultimate cornerback would have a total of 0 balls thrown his way, and thus would have no ints, pass deflections, and very few tackles.

      Therefore, you can't use hard stats as a measuring stick. All you can do is keep them in mind as a very shaky component of the overall evaluation. Cornerback, more than any other position on defense, imo, is most easily evaluated by simply observing. Most of the time, no new is good news. So if you aren't hearing about or seeing a CB in on a lot of plays then that usually means that he is doing a very good job. And when he IS tested, then he must demonstrate an ability to make a play.

      If you simply must have a stat to back this up, I have two that are readily available. I'm sure you are familiar with KC Joyner, from ESPN. He is basically a professional statistician who watches games play by play and breaks them down into categories. From this information, he forms unique "metrics" that are designed to more accurately measure players at different positions according to more specific criteria than we are used to seeing. One of these is comp % against for CBs. He wrote about this last year, and gave stats from 2004. Here are a list of the top 10 corners in the league in comp% against for 2004:

      1. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
      2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
      3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
      4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
      5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent
      6. Will Peterson -- 44.9 percent
      7. Asante Samuel -- 46.2 percent
      8. Terence Newman -- 46.6 percent
      9. Al Harris -- 47.4 percent
      10. Nate Clements -- 47.7 percent

      So, according to this particular standard, it would seem that Newman is a top 10 CB, while Springs is just a smidge better than him. However, there is a modification that he makes to these rankings called "missed passes", or in other words, passes where the QB simply made a bad throw that the reciever had no way of catching. Here were the top 10 in missed passes (or the bottom 10, depending on how you look at it):

      80. Sheldon Brown -- 41
      79. Jerametrius Butler -- 31
      78. Terrence McGee -- 31
      77. Shawn Springs -- 27
      76. Lito Sheppard -- 25
      75. David Macklin -- 25
      74. Deshea Townsend -- 24
      73. Dre' Bly -- 21
      72. Eric Warfield -- 20
      71. Gary Baxter -- 20

      So, while Springs was above Newman slightly in comp%, he was also the beneficiary of a lot of bad throws from the QB. Now, this brings the pass-rush into play, because bad passes are often the result of pressure on the QB, and we all know that there isn't a CB in the league that can cover for 5 seconds. So there is no way to measure a CB in a vacuum. A lot of it is subjective judgment. But here is a stat that suggests Newman as a top CB, and this was in a year that he was clearly struggling. Imagine how good he was last year.
      The beneficiary from bad throws by a quarterback is a very weak argument as to why he is better than Springs. I found your last paragraph interesting, since it is widely acknowledged that the Eagles pass rush was almost non-existant last season, but Sheldon still played very well. I don't know why you used stats from 2004, since Sheldon is still young and is developing. Last season was his breakout season. Brown is just reaching his peak, while Newman's about to pass his prime. The Cowboys secondary, while good enough to get the job done is far from spectacular. Newman is the best coverage guy in the group. Anthony Henry is solid, and Williams is pretty bad in coverage. When you have a link as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary, you know where to throw to. It makes no sense to continually throw against the best DB on a team when you have so many easier options. The Eagles secondary however, is considered the best in football by many. Plenty of teams fear throwing on our safeties, so our cornerbacks have huge responsibilities. Sheldon has a lot more passes thrown at him than Newman does, so I'm not surprised that his % is lower than his. You can't judge how good his play was by that stat. Newman is not shutdown, so stop arguing that he is. Like I have already said, having a player as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary is the easy completion, so that is where it makes the most sense to put the ball. I'm sure I've watched just as many Cowboys and Redskins games as you have, but how many Eagles games have you watched? Sheldon was fantastic last season, and if you had watched many Eagles games, we would not be discussing this right now. Sheldon is a more effective blitzer, and is stout against the run as well. Newman hasn't had to deal with a lack of pass rush like the Eagles had last year, so even considering him better is ridiculous.

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      • #63
        Sheldon Brown should be winning this poll, and he's not even beating Lito Sheppard. :shock:

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        • #64
          cowboys are my least hated NFC East rival but Sheldon Brown is still the top CB IMO.

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          • #65
            Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by SeanTaylor21
              Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.
              He listed every corner in the division. :?

              That is correct comahan
              I ******* LOVE YOU DG
              <3 dg

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              • #67
                Madison is better than henry and i feel he's more consistent than lito, so yes he does deserve to be in the poll.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by draftguru151
                  Originally posted by SeanTaylor21
                  Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.
                  He listed every corner in the division. :?
                  What about aaron glenn, hes in the divison :?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by SeanTaylor21
                    Originally posted by draftguru151
                    Originally posted by SeanTaylor21
                    Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.
                    He listed every corner in the division. :?
                    What about aaron glenn, hes in the divison :?
                    Starters. :?

                    That is correct comahan
                    I ******* LOVE YOU DG
                    <3 dg

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I think that everyone who voted for Lito's votes should be transferred to Sheldons since if they thought he was the best, and Sheldon is plainly better. 25 is a respectable number of votes and I'm ok with that.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by DMWSackMachine
                        Originally posted by cunningham06
                        Originally posted by duckseason
                        I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.
                        I'm not saying he's bad, he is a very solid starter. He gets his job done very well, but I wouldn't say he is better than Brown. Brown breaks up more passes, and doesn't give up as many receptions. He is better in coverage, while he isn't as fast as Newman, he is better at blitzing and is excellent in run support. The weak link in the Eagles secondary last season at least was Lito Sheppard, he gave up a lot of big plays. Newman didn't give up many td's because it was much easier to just throw the ball over Roy Williams, or other less talented members of the secondary. IMO he is a good cornerback, but on this site he is overrated. Not by everyone, just a few select cowboy fans. He is not a shutdown corner, and not a top 5 corner like some say, but to be fair neither is Brown. Both are good corners, but Brown is more well rounded then Newman.
                        Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

                        There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

                        Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

                        Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

                        The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.
                        Great post, and I agree.

                        BoneKrusher

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          "overrated" is the most over used word in the world. all people ever talk about is how a guy is overrated, yet have no clue what thye are talking about and will say it about any player that people consider to be good.

                          Lito Sheppard shouldn't have as many votes as he does. Sheldon Brown, although less hyped and does make as many Ints is easily the better player. people should watch the games before they comment.

                          I didn't see enough of Newman to say he's the best, but everything i've heard says that he probably is. my preferance is Shawn Springs. when he hasn't been hurt, the guy has done real good things. he has played very well in Washington the last 2 years, and is a big part of a top defense. he plays the run, can blitz and can cover. Newman would be my #2 because i didn't see enough Dallas games


                          Courtesy of Fenikz - Much Appreciated

                          Originally posted by dRaFtDoRk
                          You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.

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                          • #73
                            Lito Sheppard is overrated. j/p

                            That is correct comahan
                            I ******* LOVE YOU DG
                            <3 dg

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              It's Shawn Springs. He should've got the contract Smoot got, because Smoot benefitted a lot from Springs.

                              I like both of Philly's cornerbacks too, even though they got torched this year. They had the best secondary in the NFL for two-three years prior to 06.

                              Designs by Thule

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                              • #75
                                Anthony Henry is one of the most underrated players in the league. I'd take him, Brown, Springs, in that order.


                                "A real man makes his own luck." Billy Zane, Titanic

                                Originally posted by Emmitt Smith
                                Donít quit, donít even quit.

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