Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Which Corner is the best in the NFC East?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    http://theboysblog.com/2006/07/24/an...yner-part-iii/

    9. The ‘Boys Blog — Terence Newman played better in ‘05 than in ‘04. There are some fans who think he’s ready for stardom and others who think he’s money already. Can he — is he — playing at a top level already? We ask in part because he’s getting a split decision from the national media. Sports Illustrated’s Paul Zimmerman names Newman as one of his All Pros last year but other scribes remember his whiff against Chris Cooley in the second Redskins game and beat his ratings up over that.

    K.C. Joyner — I have to agree with Dr. Z on this one. A part of my take on Newman from SF 2006: “Newman placed in the top 12 in all of the major cornerback metric categories in the medium and deep pass levels and his short pass metrics were also good. He was possibly the most consistent cornerback in the NFL last year.”
    Will Ferrell is a better and more productive comedian than Wilmer Valderrama.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Jonathan_VIlma
      It's Shawn Springs. He should've got the contract Smoot got, because Smoot benefitted a lot from Springs.

      I like both of Philly's cornerbacks too, even though they got torched this year. They had the best secondary in the NFL for two-three years prior to 06.
      Not entirely there fault. The secondary didn't just suddenly get bad. Sheldon was awesome, Dawkins was excellent, Michael Lewis was helpful against the run and solid in coverage, while Lito stunk it up. We had absolutely no pass rush, and as was stated earlier in this topic, no corner can cover for 5 seconds. We got no pressure on the qb and all they had to do was wait.

      Comment


      • #78
        I might of chose Lito, but as others have siad, he got burned this year, so i'd have to say Madison.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by President
          I might of chose Lito, but as others have siad, he got burned this year, so i'd have to say Madison.
          Love the optimism but unless he has a big year this year I don't think he's in the conversation yet.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by President
            I might of chose Lito, but as others have siad, he got burned this year, so i'd have to say Madison.
            Maybe two years ago. :?

            That is correct comahan
            I ******* LOVE YOU DG
            <3 dg

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Jonathan_VIlma
              I like both of Philly's cornerbacks too, even though they got torched this year. They had the best secondary in the NFL for two-three years prior to 06.
              Sheldon didnt get torched last year, Lito did. People only remember the play with Sheldon on Plax and think he was toast all year long. Sheldon was one of the most consistent players on defense last year.

              Thanks to jkpigskin

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by cunningham06
                The beneficiary from bad throws by a quarterback is a very weak argument as to why he is better than Springs. I found your last paragraph interesting, since it is widely acknowledged that the Eagles pass rush was almost non-existant last season, but Sheldon still played very well. I don't know why you used stats from 2004, since Sheldon is still young and is developing. Last season was his breakout season. Brown is just reaching his peak, while Newman's about to pass his prime. The Cowboys secondary, while good enough to get the job done is far from spectacular. Newman is the best coverage guy in the group. Anthony Henry is solid, and Williams is pretty bad in coverage. When you have a link as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary, you know where to throw to. It makes no sense to continually throw against the best DB on a team when you have so many easier options. The Eagles secondary however, is considered the best in football by many. Plenty of teams fear throwing on our safeties, so our cornerbacks have huge responsibilities. Sheldon has a lot more passes thrown at him than Newman does, so I'm not surprised that his % is lower than his. You can't judge how good his play was by that stat. Newman is not shutdown, so stop arguing that he is. Like I have already said, having a player as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary is the easy completion, so that is where it makes the most sense to put the ball. I'm sure I've watched just as many Cowboys and Redskins games as you have, but how many Eagles games have you watched? Sheldon was fantastic last season, and if you had watched many Eagles games, we would not be discussing this right now. Sheldon is a more effective blitzer, and is stout against the run as well. Newman hasn't had to deal with a lack of pass rush like the Eagles had last year, so even considering him better is ridiculous.
                Not to incite you to anger or anything, but your response was pretty laughable. You go on and on about "give me some proof, give me some proof" blah blah blah, then I do and you completely ignore it.

                And to clarify, I wasn't making the point that Newman was better because of the missed pass stat, but rather that it was a factor in Springs' higher ranking. It must be mentioned. As to why I used stats from 04, instead of 05, its very simple: access. He posts certain topics on ESPN's website, but the bulk of his numbers can't be found anywhere but in his book. So I used that, just because you insisted upon stats (like a simpleton) so I provided some for you.

                Another stat (and it will be fun watching all the attempts to discredit this one) is this : 0 TDs allowed. Show me another starting CB that played 10 or more games without allowing a TD. I challenge you to do it.

                But of course, these arguments are all just fluff in the wind compared to your "He's overrated because I say so" argument.

                Again, if you want to point to other crap like "Oh, he has a weak player in the secondary, so nobody throws to him yadda yadda", then answer me this: Champ Bailey (who everyone seems to think is a covering God) was the lone solid player in the entire secondary for the Broncos in 04. Literally the only guy that you could consider even average in that group. So, by your reasoning, there was no reason to throw at him when you could throw at the other guys and as such he should have had an inflated comp% against number, right? I think I got that right. So......why did he come in at 67th then? Right.

                Now, listen, I have a very high opinion of Sheldon Brown. He is a fine player. I like him. Lito isn't nearly as good as he's made out to be by the media and some Philly fans, but he's good as well. Your safeties are rock solid as well, so don't think that I'm disrespecting Philly's secondary. They have the best one in the East, and probably top 5 in the league. However, my very point about corners has been proven by this thread. Shelden Brown, whom 99% of Eagles fans will tell you is better than Lito Sheppard, is being beaten out by his teammate. Why? Perception. Just like I pointed out to you. In the mainstream people's minds its all about Ints or big plays. Never about consistent play, which is exactly why polls of this nature a junk ass. The only reason Newman is winning is because of the higher number of Boys fans on this site. It's merely a coincedence that it happens to reflect the truth.

                I'm sure I've watched just as many Cowboys and Redskins games as you have, but how many Eagles games have you watched?
                I find this highly amusing. You have watched just as many Cowboys games as me? Lmao. In order for that to be true, you would have to have seen every single play of every single game from the last two seasons, plus have them saved on your Tivo unit for repeat viewings. Don't go making statements you can't back up. As for the Eagles games, I watch all of them. Every single one last year, along with the Giants and the Skins. I'm a junkie. Now, I didn't see every play, but I watched the competitive parts of every game from each team in my division.
                Originally posted by 21ST
                He was protecting his self
                Originally posted by tjsunstein
                From what? His leg?
                Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck
                That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
                "We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

                DeMarcus Ware

                Comment


                • #83
                  More Joyner on Newman in 04:

                  Originally posted by KC Joyner
                  12. Terrence Newman regressed last year. Can you give a brief rundown of his game?

                  Joyner: Again, I’ll give your readers a freebie.

                  Terence Newman

                  His stats for 2004 were excellent. His completion percentage was 8th best, his yards per attempt were tied for 8th best, and he had the 14th best tight/good coverage percentage.

                  He had terrific short passing stats, with the 7th lowest completion percentage and 17th highest tight/good coverage percentage. His medium stats weren’t as good as the short, but they were good. He ranked tied for 15th lowest completion percentage and tied for 26th in tight/good coverage percentage at the medium level. His deep stats were very solid as well.

                  If you didn’t know any better, you’d think Newman had a pretty good season. What he actually had were some really good games paired up with some terrible, awful games. Take a look:

                  Terence Newman’s worst games
                  Wk. Opp. Att. C. Yds. TD
                  1 Minn. 6, 5, 74, 2
                  3 Wash. 14, 9, 75, 1
                  6 Pitt. 12, 9, 104, 1
                  7 G.B. 5, 3, 92, 1
                  13 Sea. 14, 12, 147, 1
                  Totals 51, 38, 492, 6

                  Terence Newman’s best games:
                  Wk. Opp. Att. C. Yds. TD
                  2 Cle. 10, 1, 12, 0
                  9 Cinn. 5, 1, 2, 0
                  12 Chi. 4, 0, 0, 0
                  15 Phi. 5, 2, 13, 0
                  17 NYG 6, 2, 23, 0
                  Totals 30, 6, 50, 0

                  Newman was perfectly capable of losing a game all by himself, and perfectly capable of shutting an opponent down. His shutdown games came against teams with weaker receivers, but he could still shut those receivers down.

                  Newman had many games where he was targeted and beaten. Parcells at one point said that Newman was losing his confidence, and the Seattle game was the nadir of that time. After the Seattle game Newman started playing the receivers much tighter than he had been up to that point. It’s almost like Parcells told him, “Look, you play best when you play tight. When you play soft you get beat. Go back to playing tight and stop worrying about if you’re going to have help over the top. If you get beat deep because of that, you’ll never hear me say a word.” Newman’s confidence returned and he started playing like a top-level cover corner and had two of his best games in weeks 15 & 17.

                  They always say that the best CBs are the ones who have bad memories and don’t remember being beaten. Newman had his first struggles last year but he seemed to forget them after a time. I was worried about his future, but I’m not anymore. This guy is good as long as he plays tight and doesn’t worry.
                  Also, I don't know who this guy is, or what is up with him, but when I did a search on the web it pulled this site up:

                  http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/l...php/t8000.html


                  The 4th Annual Yakuza Rich NFL All-Pro Team

                  Anyway, I wouldn't call him a credibility giant, but he does name Newman to his All-Pro team. Here is the clip:


                  CORNERBACK

                  For all of the outcry by the media against Terrell Owens, they sure got sucked in by a blatant self promoter in Atlanta’s DeAngelo Hall. Don’t get me wrong, Hall seems to have a pretty good career ahead of him and played alright this season. But when I think of him I can’t help but think of another self promoting former Falcon CB.

                  No, not Deion Sanders. He was the best CB I ever saw.

                  I’m talking about Tim McKier, a pretty good CB at one time who mistakenly thought he was so great he once announced to the world that he was the Michael Jordan of football.

                  For all of the talk about the re-enforcement of the pass interference and illegal chuck rules, there wound up being some fantastic CB play this season. The household names like Champ Bailey and Ty Law were pretty good this year, but not All-Pro worthy. Bailey still makes too many bad gambles and is a suspect tackler. Law struggled sometimes with deep stuff and also wasn’t the tackler he usually is.

                  I gave a hard look at Rashean Mathis, but saw him get killed by Marvin Harrison and I saw him struggle with other speedsters. Even still, he had a great season.

                  After Dallas vs. Carolina game, Terence Newman was a shoe-in. He never gave up a single TD this year. His longest completion allowed was 23 yards. Teams simply didn’t throw his way and when they did it was either incomplete or for minimal gain. No WR did anything against him and that includes Santana Moss, Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Torry Holt, Rod Smith, Randy Moss (who he actually caught from behind in their game), Roy Williams, and yes…Steve Smith.

                  Sure, one could say that opposing QB’s were going after Newman’s other CB’s which was true. But they still lacked success there as Anthony Henry, Aaron Glenn, and Jacques Reeves all had fine years in coverage.
                  Originally posted by 21ST
                  He was protecting his self
                  Originally posted by tjsunstein
                  From what? His leg?
                  Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck
                  That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
                  "We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

                  DeMarcus Ware

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Forget all these stupid metric stats for CBs. They are MEANINGLESS. They are made so nerdy baseball stats guys can understand football by turning it into math. Football isn't played in a vacuum nearly as much as baseball. I'll give you a number. Turnovers. It is what wins football games. When you win the turnover battle, you win a game. This is a team stat, not an idividual stat. Secondaries should be looked at as a group not as individual cornerbacks. Even then you aren't doing justice, because what goes on up front means so much than the coverage behind it.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Jughead10
                      Forget all these stupid metric stats for CBs. They are MEANINGLESS. They are made so nerdy baseball stats guys can understand football by turning it into math. Football isn't played in a vacuum nearly as much as baseball. I'll give you a number. Turnovers. It is what wins football games. When you win the turnover battle, you win a game. This is a team stat, not an idividual stat. Secondaries should be looked at as a group not as individual cornerbacks. Even then you aren't doing justice, because what goes on up front means so much than the coverage behind it.
                      I agree with your point that this is a team game, and that a weakness in one part of the defense can result in another unit struggling. I also agree that stats generally don't tell the whole story. However, these metric stats provided by KC Joyner via DMW are absolutely cogent.
                      Do you honestly believe that they are worthless? This guy sat and analyzed every play, and recorded what occured. How can you say that completion percentage against is meaningless? Of course it doesn't tell the whole story. Some corners benefit from factors outside their control. Such as the style of defense they play in, or the strength of pass rush their team maintains. However, if you must demonstrate evidence as to who the better corners are.....these would be the ideal statistics to ponder. These metrics really are valid, and people are free to interpret them however they choose. To say they're meaningless is a fallacy. I would say these statistics are much more precise in showing who the better corners are, than turnovers are in determining who will win the game. That whole "win the turnover battle/win the game" thing doesn't happen all the time.
                      Fact is, most fans adopt their view of who the best corners are by listening to what the national media and guys like John Madden have to say about them. Champ Bailey is widely regarded as the preeminent CB in the game. Why, you ask? Because that's what was stuffed down our throats as we watched the Broncos play on TV. It's what was written in SI, and TSN. I prefer to come to my own conclusions. By watching (not listening to) the games, and referring to stats such as those provided by Mr. Joyner, I am able to formulate a pretty accurate overall opinion. Much more accurate than some Madden ratings. To read what DMW had to say, and allow those words/stats to just fly out your left ear, is really quite ignorant.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Excellent points. The thing with stats, is that they can be useful if taken in the proper perspective, but if allowed to dominate ones thinking, they become a tyrant of the mind. They simply should be used as one peice to a large puzzle in evaluating a player, team or whatever. For example, even though a lot of these stats say that Champ Bailey is a below average corner, I still consider him to be very good. Anyone who has watched him play knows that he is a fine player. The stats say otherwise, and in contrast the media makes him out to be much better than he is. As is so often the case, the truth lies somewhere in between.

                        But to say that you can completely ignore statistics is to say that you are to be completely ignored.
                        Originally posted by 21ST
                        He was protecting his self
                        Originally posted by tjsunstein
                        From what? His leg?
                        Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck
                        That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
                        "We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

                        DeMarcus Ware

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Terrence Newman is the best player from that list, though i can picture Carlos Rogers, being somthing great later on

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            This is why football is both the best and the worst of the major sports to talk about amongst fans.

                            It's the best because there is such interdependence among the different facets of the game that it's nearly impossible to prove your point on any 'who is best' discussion. This lends iteslf to great debates and postulating by fans.

                            It's the worst because of that same interdependence.


                            Since I am a Cowboys fan I'll use Cowboy examples. Is Emmit Smith the greatest runner of all time or the beneficiary of a great offensive line? Was the line really that good or did an incredible runner with great instincts and vision make the line look better? I Aikman in the Hall of Fame because he had Emitt Smith keeping 8 in the box and Irvin on the outside? Did the defense that was so good in the 90's give Emmit and Aikman just more opportunities to work with a short field?

                            Was Barry Sanders a better running back than Emmitt? What about the fact that Barry Sanders has the most negative rushing yards of any running back of all time? Was this because of his OL or was his OL looking so bad because he improvised so much?


                            Or for another line of reasoning. We all know that having a strong pass rush improves your pass defense by increasing turnovers and decreasing the ability of receivers to get open. We also know that having good corners increases the amount of time that it takes for WR's to get open so that increases the effectiveness of a good pass rush as well.

                            Stats are misleading. What's better a pass for 15 yards on 3rd and 17 OR a pass for 2 yards on 3rd and 1? In the stat column one is better but on the playing field the other is more effective.

                            Should you count interceptions at the end of the year for QB's and then compare who is better? What about the INTS that were dropped by the DB's so just became bad incompletions. These were worse passes than those tipped by the WR that happen to bounce into the DB's hands. One is not the QB's fault the other is. But yet they don't count the same in the statistical category.

                            And finally, what was the responsibility of the CB? If the coach wants the CB to gamble for the pick because they are behind should you judge his play the same as the coach that wants the CB to play off because they are protecting the lead? You see, things like that don't show up in the stat colum but are directly related to the CB's abilities.

                            Designs by Thule



                            Originally posted by DMWSackMachine
                            I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              There is a simple solution to this question- there is no clear cut favorite.

                              I don't believe there is truly an elite corner in the NFC East. It's a bunch of very good corners who benefit from great pass rushes.


                              ^^Best Real Estate Salesman Ever^^

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                k most of those guys on that list are uprising stars who are gonna be a force in the future and some of them are already a force. I would take Sam Madison anyday just becuz of his veteran leadership but for overall talent/future skill ill be goin for Terrance Newman.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X

                                Debug Information