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  • Originally posted by bigbluedefense
    Originally posted by Zim3031
    Originally posted by Shiver
    So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
    If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

    Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
    So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

    I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

    The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...

    I'm comparing Eli last year to Ben last year. You don't really believe that Eli would've won a super bowl on the Steelers last year do you?


    I don't see how people can't give credit for Roethlisberger for those superbowls in some capacity. The steelers had always had a productive running game and a solid defense for years but played musical QB. In steps Roethlisberger and they start winning like crazy? I don't see how that's product of the system.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Zim3031
      Originally posted by bigbluedefense
      Originally posted by Zim3031
      Originally posted by Shiver
      So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
      If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

      Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
      So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

      I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

      The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...

      I'm comparing Eli last year to Ben last year. You don't really believe that Eli would've won a super bowl on the Steelers last year do you?


      I don't see how people can't give credit for Roethlisberger for those superbowls in some capacity. The steelers had always had a productive running game and a solid defense for years but played musical QB. In steps Roethlisberger and they start winning like crazy? I don't see how that's product of the system.
      The Steelers running game actually struggled a fair bit last year, particularly in the playoffs. I don't even believe Ben is a top qb, but its just ridiculous how little credit he is getting here. The Steelers would not have won the Superbowl without Ben, because without him they don't win at Indie or Denver or even make the playoffs. Could Eli (who I think is the best qb out of these 3) have done it? I don't know and it depends on which Eli showed up. They wouldn't have won any playoffs games with the way Eli was playing at the end of last year (the entire last 3rd of the season, not just the Panthers game). Its too early to tell with Rivers.

      Comment


      • 2 points I want to make.

        1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

        The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

        2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

        Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

        You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

        What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.

        Comment


        • He's not as good as Steelers fans believe he is. But he's not as bad as he's played this year. How he finishes off this season will be very telling as to how his career will end up. All I know is I am sick of the "W-L" and "Super Bowl" reasoning point, as a reason why QB X is better than QB Y.

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          • Eli Manning is the best QB of the class IMO. That said, I'd take San Diego's side of the trade for the #1 pick every time. Rivers + Merriman (or for a 4-3 team, a different 1st round pick) + Kaeding>>>>>>Manning


            The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

            If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

            <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
            <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

            Comment


            • Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Zim3031
                Originally posted by Shiver
                So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
                If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

                Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
                If you recall, the giants did poorly as an entire team, including the coaches. Our starting LBers were injured and we had 3 players starting that couldn't hold their own in NFL Europe. Tiki, a well respected leader on the giants, came out and said that they got outcoached. You can't put that loss on Eli alone. Nobody from the giants did good in that game.

                Comment


                • I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ricky bobby
                    I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.

                    Good for him

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jughead10
                      Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.
                      The Giants line isn't as good at run blocking as Pittsburghs, but it is still a pretty good run blocking line. Either way, no one can claim that Eli didn't have a good run game.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Windy City Big Gamer Uno
                        Originally posted by ricky bobby
                        I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.

                        Good for him
                        Harrrooooo!!!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Basileus777
                          Originally posted by Jughead10
                          Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.
                          The Giants line isn't as good at run blocking as Pittsburghs, but it is still a pretty good run blocking line.
                          The right side is. The combination of Snee and McKenzie.

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                          • When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that

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                            • Originally posted by Windy City Big Gamer Uno
                              When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that
                              I think '07 will be his last year. This year and one more.

                              Comment


                              • The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.
                                Ben Roethlisberger last year had more attempts passing on first down than he did on 2nd and 3rd. He also has a passer rating of 119. The steelers tendencies last year was to put up a score fast and hard, then grind the ball out on the ground to preserve victory. This conception that the steelers just run the ball twice then threw once is just incorrect.

                                Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.
                                If all he did was "manage" his team then how have the Steeler, who have been stuck with mediocrity at the QB position for years, only start winning like mad when Ben came into town. And don't say that it's because their defense and running game was better. That's just not true.

                                You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

                                What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.
                                Loses it more so than he wins? He's lost one playoff game in his career. Last I checked he played alright in Denver when the Steelers couldn't run the ball at all. Including the second half.

                                Comment

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