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Coaching or Talent?

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  • Coaching or Talent?

    Which is the most important thing in football? Having a talented team, or having a good coach?
    I'm writing this, thinking about Marty Schottenheimer's situation last year. He had amazing talent, his team dominated the regular season, but in the playoffs they lost like every year during the Scottenhimer's reign. But was this time is fault? If Marlon McCree wouldn't made that stupid play, the Chargers could have won the Super Bowl, and now we could talk about Marty, the great HC who finally won a super bowl.
    And again, Sean Payton was the coach of the year. But what would have the Saints done without Drew Brees?
    Bill Bellichick was considered a mediocre coach before the coming of Brady. Is Tony Dungy the reason why the Colts have been so successfull or is Manning? Last year, Dungy's defense sucked for all year long, it was is offense - which, imo, lives and dies with Peyton - that carry the team to a 12-4 record.
    Bears defense has been so good because of Rivera or because they had the right players in almost every position? Should we expect a down season for them because Rivera is gone, or they will still be amazing because of Harris, Ogunleye, Brown, Anderson, Urlacher, Vasher and so on?
    The Cowboys under Parcells weren't able to win a playoff game. But if Romo hasn't fumble that snap who knows how many other games the Cowboys could have won?
    So do you think that great success is more determined by coaching or overall talent of the team? Could a great coach win without great talent around?
    Coaches (like QBs) always take the blame for losing, but they're not the ones who play on the field, and the ones who can ruin an entire season with one bonehead play.


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  • #2
    You hit the nail on the head. Give me talent. Every time.

    Another example is the Baltimore Ravens. Look at how they've cycled through defensive coordinators, yet still remained an elite unit.

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    • #3
      You can't teach talent but you can always find a coach so give me talent as well.

      Magical sig by OSUGiants

      SSAEL....... its a new revolution!


      Originally posted by Job
      On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
      Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

      So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!

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      • #4
        good strategy beats mediocre talent ten to one.

        see denver and the path to glory starring... Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns and Tatum Bell ...

        or the other flick, Bill Belichick and the case of the torn hoodie and the piecemeal gameplan
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        • #5
          Bill Belichick has one three superbowls with subpar talent at some positions. I don't think anyone would argue with me saying he had the most talent in the NFL. I would choose coach.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by thule View Post
            Bill Belichick has one three superbowls with subpar talent at some positions. I don't think anyone would argue with me saying he had the most talent in the NFL. I would choose coach.
            Tom Brady is quite the talent.

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            • #7
              I was on the best division 3 baseball team in Ohio acouple years ago. We went 24-2 durring the regular season on talent alone. When we went to the tournament and got to the final 6 teams, coaching took over and we got beat by Coldwater.

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              • #8
                I don't think it is ever one or the other, but always a little bit of both. You clearly have to have guys that are good enough to be playing the game, but I am of the belief that if you give Bill Belichick a guy that is really smart, understands the game, learns easy and has great natural instincts, that he can coach him up to have him play above his ability (or improve to that level). I think other great coaches can do that too.

                There's never an exact formula. There are going to be games that are won based on pure talent alone, but most of the time, games are going to be one with a great game plan and perfect execution. Whether the execution is delivered based off the fact that Ladanian Tomlinson is a freak of nature and rushed for 230 yards and four TD's or the fact that Fred Taylor and Maurice Jones Drew rushed the ball 25+ times each for over 400 yards combined and dominated the time of possession and kept Indianapolis off the field, thus limiting their offensive capabilities, remains to be seen.

                I don't think talent is ever the issue, it's execution. We've seen guys come in the league with all the talent in the world and not be able to put it on the field because they don't know how to play. Last year, Chad Jackson was a perfect example. The guy is clearly a very, very gifted player, very fast, can easily become the Patriots #1 very fast. But he didn't learn the playbook, and you can't get by in the NFL running in a straight line down the field every play.

                So like I said, it's pretty much a combination of both, with both relying heavily on the other...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by awfullyquiet View Post
                  good strategy beats mediocre talent ten to one.

                  see denver and the path to glory starring... Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns and Tatum Bell ...

                  or the other flick, Bill Belichick and the case of the torn hoodie and the piecemeal gameplan
                  Davis and Portis were/are both great running backs, and Bell and Anderson aren't that shabby themselves. But you're not mentioning one of the most talented lines in NFL history with those guys. That was the main reason for most of the success was the talent up front.

                  I'll take talent every time. Look what happens when coaches like Gibbs or Shell come back to coach untalented teams. No matter how great the scheme or discipline of a team, if they just don't have the talent they won't get it done. I think coaches get way to much credit and blame for a team's shortcomings. It's hard to win without a good coach, but it's impossible to win without good talent.

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                  • #10
                    I think talent needs to be molded, developed, and maintained. It's a chicken or egg argument. I don't think 11 members of this forum could compete in the NFL, even under Vince Lombardi and Bill Walsh because the natural ability just isn't there. However, I think a great coach armed with the right system and the right talent can beat a better team by outcoaching them. Last season, the 49ers and Packers were not very talented teams, but they each won some games based on coaching. In the NFL, the talent is spread around. But, the disparity isn't so great that on any given day, a well-coached team with a and well-executed game plan couldn't take out any other team.



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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by njx9
                      mentioning brady alone as evidence that talent is more important on the patriots seems to me to be a bit silly. this is a team that was starting troy brown at cb, that has consistently never had a great wide receiver and that won it's first super bowl with antowain smith at running back.

                      but yeah, i forgot it's NFLDC... most of you don't know that anyone exists on that team besides brady.
                      Yeah although I took the side of talent, Brady would seem to me to be a perfect example of why coaching is more important. For all the "talent" Brady has, he was a sixth round draft choice and a backup QB. It's hard to say who made whose career, Bellichek or Brady.

                      That team still had a pretty good defense though when they won all those championships, but if you're gonna cite Brady it should be for the coaching argument.

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                      • #12
                        Another thing I'd be curious about is what this is based on, one season or building a franchise?

                        If it's for one season I would take the talent like I said.

                        But if you're building a franchise I'd much rather start with the dominant coach. You can build the talent around him, but it's very hard for talent to build a great coach.

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                        • #13
                          Give me coaching over anything. Look at Gallery and Williams. They have all the talent but without coaching look where they are now. Without soild coaching your talent isnt going to do anything.

                          BTW there should be a poll in this thread.

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                          • #14
                            At the end of the day, players make plays. Its that simple.

                            But there does need to be an equilibrium. What a great coach does, is motivate his team to perform at its optimum level, utilize its player talents to the best of his abilities, and provide of a system of success that can be duplicated and succeed at different teams/times.


                            The most overrated aspect of coaching is SB victories. Some of the best coaches didn't win one. Some horrible coaches did win one.

                            Bellichick was an average coach before Brady. And to say he had no talent is bs, he had plenty of talent on that Patriot team.

                            To me, a great coach is a guy who can do what I said above. Vince Lombardi said it best.

                            "Coaches who can outline plays on a black board are a dime a dozen. The ones who win get inside their player and motivate."


                            As much as I love Xs and Os, this is true. Its the guys who can motivate and get the most out of their guys....those are the real coaches out there. Theres more to coaching than calling plays. What about player development? Player utilization? Etc..

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                            • #15
                              coaching...New York Knicks...enough said.

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