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DR.Z (SI) Gonzo not a HOF?

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  • #16
    Top 5 TE's
    1.Kellen Winslow
    2a.Tony Gonzalez
    2b.Shannon Sharpe
    3. Mike Ditka


    5.Todd Christensen

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    • #17
      Gonzalez needs something like 2 TDs to have the most receiving TDs of all time for a TE doesn't he?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by BlindSite View Post
        Gonzalez needs something like 2 TDs to have the most receiving TDs of all time for a TE doesn't he?
        Yep

        Sharpe has the record with 62 and Gonzalez has 61. Gonzalez will definitely pass up that record this year.

        Here are Sharpe's career stats:

        62 touchdowns
        10,060 yards
        815 receptions
        12.3 average

        Here are Gonzalez's career stats:

        61 touchdowns
        8,710 yards
        721 receptions
        12.1 average

        Here is the difference between the two players' stats:

        1 touchdown
        1,350 yards
        94 receptions

        Barring any injury or major catastrophe Tony Gonzalez will have passed up Sharpe in touchdowns, yards, and receptions by at least the midpoint of the 2008 season if not sooner. At that point Gonzalez will be in his 12th season in the NFL.

        Sharpe took 14 seasons to collect his stats. As mentioned previously, barring some catastrophe Gonzalez will have passed up Sharpe in yards, touchdowns, and receptions in two less seasons than it took Sharpe.

        I also don't think it is a stretch to say Gonzalez will remain relatively productive until he is 35. That gives him 4 more seasons. Therefor, my predictions for Gonzalez's career statistics are as follows:

        75 touchdowns
        11,900 yards
        979 receptions

        That is a complete guess and is based on his stats going down a little bit more year by year. At that point he would lead every major statistical category for tight ends and would be at a point that would be hard for any tight end to reach. Antonio Gates could reach those numbers but he would have to play for a while.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TACKLE View Post
          Top 5 TE's
          1.Kellen Winslow
          2a.Tony Gonzalez
          2b.Shannon Sharpe
          3. Mike Ditka


          5.Todd Christensen
          WOW. John Mackey? Ozzie Newsome? Dave Casper?


          The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

          If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

          <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
          <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Splat420 View Post
            http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...mailbag/2.html

            Lingering HOF question from Sean of Chicago. Why did I leave Tony Gonzalez off my list? Because Todd Christensen, who can't get in, was better.

            Stats

            Todd Christensen - 461 receptions 5,874 yards and 52 TDs

            Tony Gonzalez - 721 receptions 8,710 yards 61 TDs

            ???
            I'm going to assume that Dr. Z's argument would be that the game was very different back when Christenson was playing than it is now. It is much friendlier to big numbers for TEs--Gates, Gonzo, Heap, Dallas Clark, Winslow, Witten and more.

            That said, one could very well say it was Gonzalez (second to Shannon Sharpe admittedly) who revolutionized the position, leading the way for the rest of the four and five star TEs.

            No matter what your stance on the issue, the argument here obviously has to go beyond pure statistics. Trying to compare statistics right across the board would with players from different eras (like the Christenson vs. Gonzalez debate) would be like comparing the numbers baseball players in the Hall of Fame from the 50s and 60s to players today. You are going to find players with superior numbers today, but they don't deserve to be in the Hall.

            Guys like Pee Wee Reese from the Dodgers going up against a guy like Ray Durham (same position even) and Durham's stats are significantly better--yet no one will ever say that Durham deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Carl Yastrzemski and Jason Giambi is another example of similar stats (far better rate stats for Giambi) yet Giambi is just a very good player--nowhere near the Hall.

            I'm not making a case either way, I'm just saying that a lot more needs to be taken into consideration than straight side-by-side statistical comparison.

            Oldie but a goodie.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
              yep

              and agree BOTH are HOF players...but if sharpe doesnt get in and Gonzo does....
              I can't honestly say I'm in the know on who is going to be inducted and when, but I personally can't see the argument for Shannon Sharpe not getting into the Hall of Fame. As I just eluded to in my other post, Shannon Sharpe revolutionized the position and he is one of the best at the position. When determining Hall of Fame worthiness I think these things must be taken into account:

              Dominance
              Longevity
              Championships
              Actual statistical comparison
              Effect on the game

              Shannon Sharpe's career featured all of these elements in spades. Sharpe was dominant and he was dominant for a long time. He has 3 Super Bowl rings I believe (2 with Broncos one with the Ravens) he has the best receiving stats for a TE (for now) and as I already have stated, I feel he completely changed the position and changed the offensive game of football. He is the father of the modern receiving TE. That, in and of itself, should get him in.

              That said, I would probably say that Gonzalez is the "firstborn" of the modern receiving TE, meaning that he was doing it for quite a while before anyone other than Sharpe was doing it.

              But on the topic of Christenson, he also had an effect on the position. If Sharpe was the father, guys like Christenson, Casper and others were the godfather of the modern receiving TE. They laid the foundation for what it is today. That cannot be ignored.

              Oldie but a goodie.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
                I'm not making a case either way, I'm just saying that a lot more needs to be taken into consideration than straight side-by-side statistical comparison.
                Good point there, however, this argument simply makes Gonzalez's case stronger to me, since his numbers trump just about any TE during his era by a wide margin. The only one he doesn't completely beat out (at the moment) is Shannon Sharpe, who should be the next TE in line for the HOF. The era argument really only adds to his case though, since he's been so dominant for such a long time period, and will likely end up setting every significant record for TEs by the time his career is over, which is a rather large accomplishment in any era.


                The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

                If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

                <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
                <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

                Comment


                • #23
                  That's true NIP, but I think the matter here is more of length of production than simply statistics. Is what Christensen did in his four years more impressive than Gonzalez? Absolutely, and even more so considering the era's they played in.

                  However, four years of production is a short amount of time in any era, and I don't think King or anyone could really try and say that it is enough to significantly overcome 8 very good years of production at the tight end position while being considered the best all-around player at your position.

                  The NFL HOF is very selective, so maybe neither have the numbers or reputation to get in. However, King's argument is suspect at best.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
                    Good point there, however, this argument simply makes Gonzalez's case stronger to me, since his numbers trump just about any TE during his era by a wide margin. The only one he doesn't completely beat out (at the moment) is Shannon Sharpe, who should be the next TE in line for the HOF. The era argument really only adds to his case though, since he's been so dominant for such a long time period, and will likely end up setting every significant record for TEs by the time his career is over, which is a rather large accomplishment in any era.
                    You are absolutely right. Don't be surprised if Antonio Gates breaks all of Gonzo's records in less time though. He certainly seems to be on the fast track to that territory. As of right now, Gates' 3 year averages are:

                    996 yds, 80.3 rec, 10.7 TDs, 12.4 ypc.

                    Gonzalez' best 3 year average wasn't until 2003, 2004, 2005, and even then, the only real edge that Gonzalez has in that 3-year period is yards (and by definition ypc). Gates has a better TD and reception rate in his last 3 years and he's just hitting his stride it would seem. Absolutely he needs to prove he has the same longevity as TG, but like I said, Gates seems to be on the fast track--after these last 3 years it's pretty safe to assume it's not fluke at least.

                    Again, though, part of my point is that the game is so quickly changing that records are being broken before the ink even dries now. The question remains is the dominance solely in statistics or is it in more than that.

                    That said, I agree, with Gonzo's dominance, with his longevity and his historical comparison (will likely rank at the top in every category) he should definitely get in the Hall.

                    Oldie but a goodie.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
                      Again, though, part of my point is that the game is so quickly changing that records are being broken before the ink even dries now. The question remains is the dominance solely in statistics or is it in more than that.
                      This is where I feel the era comparison comes into play. If it was simply a matter of the position evolving into more of a focal point in offenses (which, admittedly, it has to an extent), the feats of players like Sharpe, Gonzalez, and Gates would become more commonplace. It's rare to see a 70 reception season from a TE though (Gonzalez has done it 7 of the last 8 seasons), and even more rare to see a 1000 or even 900 yard season from a TE (Gonzalez has 2 1000 yard seasons (both in the 1200s) and 6 900 yard seasons in that same span), even now. When a player is well above the league averages at his position for his era, that is when it becomes clear that he is outplaying his counterparts at his position by a wide margin, which is, to me, the sign of a great player.


                      The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

                      If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

                      <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
                      <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by OhioState View Post
                        wow, i just lost even more respect for Dr. Z, he is an idiot
                        Yeah. He said the Bears last year would be one of the worst teams in the NFL.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Gonzo and Sharpe are locks, no questions asked.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ChargerCohen View Post
                            Gonzo and Sharpe are locks, no questions asked.
                            absolutely... and that guy is a moron for doubting.

                            Sig by Fenikz

                            I remember NFLDC
                            don't tell anyone, but Charlie Casserly is a dope fiend

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
                              Christensen did put up bigger seasons while he was playing, but he only had a 4 year span of real dominance, while Gonzalez has been consistently excellent for 8 years now.

                              Longevity has to play a factor in the HOF voting.
                              you can go ahead and compare this to something like Terrell Davis v Curtis Martin and theres a reason why Davis isnt getting in and we can rest assured Martin will be getting in.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
                                No matter what your stance on the issue, the argument here obviously has to go beyond pure statistics.
                                I agree but Gonzo is more then just stats he is a very underrated blocker and a team leader and class act off the field. There is no one on the team that works harder then Gonzo in the off season he is still trying to get better each and every year the guy has HOF'er all over him. When the Chiefs lose a game no one is more up set then Gonzo he takes it so hard and always feels he should have done more even when there is no way he is what cost us the game. I'm not knocking TC at all great player but to hold TG down for TC not being in is a load of crap it has nothing to do with him.

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