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  • Originally posted by duckseason View Post
    By saying that Manning "makes" Harrison what he is, you're saying that Harrison is far from being the best WR in the game. The fact that you've previously stated that Marvin is the best in the game would make this a contradiction.

    Of course they help each other. That's the way it works in football. Which is why it's ridiculous to say that Manning "doubled" Harrison's production level. Like I said, you're double talking in an attempt to strengthen your argument. The end result is a much weaker argument and a loss of credibility. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.
    I never said Manning "makes" Harrison, but the fact is, Harrison's production levels have nearly doubled since Manning's arrival in Indianapolis. Does that mean any WR could consistently perform on the same level Marvin does given the same oppurtunity? No. That simply means that Marvin's production level has nearly doubled with Peyton Manning throwing to him, as opposed to other QBs throwing to him, which, at least in some small part, has to be a result of having Peyton Manning throwing the ball to him.


    The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

    If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

    <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
    <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
      I never said Manning "makes" Harrison, but the fact is, Harrison's production levels have nearly doubled since Manning's arrival in Indianapolis. Does that mean any WR could consistently perform on the same level Marvin does given the same oppurtunity? No. That simply means that Marvin's production level has nearly doubled with Peyton Manning throwing to him, as opposed to other QBs throwing to him, which, at least in some small part, has to be a result of having Peyton Manning throwing the ball to him.
      So re-word your post. Like I said, you overstated Manning's impact on the Colts' receivers in order to strengthen your argument. You DID imply that Manning somehow makes Harrison what he is, and you did in fact say that Manning just about doubled Harrison's production.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by duckseason View Post
        Like I said, you overstated Manning's impact on the Colts' receivers in order to strengthen your argument.
        I did no more overstating of my argument than awfullyquiet did of his argument. Do you really think Duper, Clayton, Sharpe, and/or Smith would've been nothing without Elway/Marino? I certainly don't.


        The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

        If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

        <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
        <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
          I did no more overstating of my argument than awfullyquiet did of his argument. Do you really think Duper, Clayton, Sharpe, and/or Smith would've been nothing without Elway/Marino? I certainly don't.
          I disagree. She didn't say anything about those guys. She merely stated that Marino and Elway made productive WR's, and then questioned whether Montana and Manning did the same. While I think that was a blanket statement that I don't necessarily agree with, at least she didn't contradict herself.

          I chose to specifically respond to you because I thought it was odd that you would make such a post. My BS-dar was sending an amber alert to my temple. I've seen you talk about how Marvin is the best WR in the game, and then here I was reading a post written by you, that was grossly minimizing Harrison's talents in an effort to boost your argument about Manning.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by duckseason View Post
            I disagree. She didn't say anything about those guys. She merely stated that Marino and Elway made productive WR's, and then questioned whether Montana and Manning did the same. While I think that was a blanket statement that I don't necessarily agree with, at least she didn't contradict herself.
            In stating such, she implied that those players would not have been good without their respective QBs.

            Originally posted by duckseason View Post
            I chose to specifically respond to you because I thought it was odd that you would make such a post. My BS-dar was sending an amber alert to my temple. I've seen you talk about how Marvin is the best WR in the game, and then here I was reading a post written by you, that was grossly minimizing Harrison's talents in an effort to boost your argument about Manning.
            It's all a poor wording choice basically. If I'd said "Each of those 3 has seen their production level nearly double while playing with Manning" instead of "He just about doubled each of their production levels", that would likely have better conveyed my point. That said, I don't think any player "makes" any other player. If that's your mentality though, it is difficult to argue against Manning "making" receivers when he has played with 3 pass catchers (Harrison, Pollard, Stokley) who had NFL careers prior to playing with him, and while playing with him as opposed to prior to doing so, their production levels at least nearly doubled (more than doubled in the cases of Stokley and Pollard). I do believe that Manning did improve the performance and hence production of all 3 of those players though.


            The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

            If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

            <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
            <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

            Comment


            • John Elway played on a team that was coached and run by Dan Reeves and was still successful. 'Nuff said.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
                It's all a poor wording choice basically.
                Exactly my point. Your choice of words was geared towards trumping up your homer-centric Manning argument. I'm glad to see that you recognize that fact. Hopefully you'll refrain from making such farcical statements in the future.

                Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
                If I'd said "Each of those 3 has seen their production level nearly double while playing with Manning" instead of "He just about doubled each of their production levels", that would likely have better conveyed my point.
                I still would have responded to you if you in any way implied that Manning deserved the majority of the credit for Harrison's increased production. If he's the best WR in the game, then he's the best regardless of who his QB is.

                Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
                That said, I don't think any player "makes" any other player. If that's your mentality though, it is difficult to argue against Manning "making" receivers when he has played with 3 pass catchers (Harrison, Pollard, Stokley) who had NFL careers prior to playing with him, and while playing with him as opposed to prior to doing so, their production levels at least nearly doubled (more than doubled in the cases of Stokley and Pollard). I do believe that Manning did improve the performance and hence production of all 3 of those players though.
                Ok. #1, that is not my mentality at all. Don't put words in my mouth. It appears to be your own personal mentality. Don't blame me for your faulty logic. You're the one who said these things.

                #2, you still seem to be giving Manning a ton of credit for Harrison's greatness. While I agree that Manning is the primary reason for the Colts success in the passing game, I don't believe that Harrison is the single best WR in the game today. You do. Seems odd for you to claim that Manning plays such a huge role in Harrison's success. Wouldn't Harrison be just as great if he played for the Rams or Cardinals?

                My point remains that you are talking out of both sides of your neck. You're going to the extreme to defend both of these players. Manning "makes" his WR's who they are. Yet Harrison is the best WR in the game. The truth lies in the middle. Manning is a great QB, and Harrison is a great WR. Together, they are nearly unstoppable. Although they do both have their flaws. Is Manning the greatest QB ever? I don't think so. I think he has his strengths and weaknesses. I've seen other QB's with lesser weaknesses. Is Harrison the best WR in the game? Not in my opinion. Same with Manning, I think there are a few other players who have lesser weaknesses. They, and the rest of the Colts make for a prolific offense. They are both beneficiaries of playing for the COLTS. And they are a big part of that, as the rest of the team certainly benefits from playing with them too. That is a well crafted team, and it is obvious that management has taken great care to ensure that their players form as cohesive a unit as possible. They don't necessarily go for the best athletes. They seem to go for guys that will fit their team, first and foremost. Manning and Harrison seem to be made for each other. I just don't see how anybody in their right mind can sit there and say that Harrison is the best WR in the game, and also believe that Manning is primarily responsible for the guy's production. You're exaggerating the greatness of both players, and playing them off each other in order to do so. That is what I take issue with. Just keep it real. They are both great players, and as a Colts fan, you should feel lucky to have seen the stars align in much the same way they did in '80s frisco. There is absolutely no need at all to overstate the value of either of them. The numbers they end up posting will do that for them. In other words, it's questionable whether either of them would be in this conversation if it weren't for each other and the team they play for. I know you know this, so just act accordingly.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  Exactly my point. Your choice of words was geared towards trumping up your homer-centric Manning argument. I'm glad to see that you recognize that fact. Hopefully you'll refrain from making such farcical statements in the future.
                  Homer-centric Manning argument? If you honestly believe my argument consists of nothing more than homerism, I'd like you to compile a list of 10 QBs in NFL history that would be regarded as better than Peyton Manning, because that's the only claim I've made about him on this thread.

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  I still would have responded to you if you in any way implied that Manning deserved the majority of the credit for Harrison's increased production. If he's the best WR in the game, then he's the best regardless of who his QB is.
                  What you're saying there would imply that QB play makes absolutely no difference in the level of a WR's production, something which you have already stated on this thread is not true. Apparently you can contradict yourself?

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  Ok. #1, that is not my mentality at all. Don't put words in my mouth. It appears to be your own personal mentality. Don't blame me for your faulty logic. You're the one who said these things.
                  Actually, it's awfullyquiet's mentality, not mine, and if you'll notice (though you may not notice this, as was your mistake here), I said "If that's your mentality...", because it did appear from your previous statements that that in fact was not the case for you.

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  #2, you still seem to be giving Manning a ton of credit for Harrison's greatness. While I agree that Manning is the primary reason for the Colts success in the passing game, I don't believe that Harrison is the single best WR in the game today. You do. Seems odd for you to claim that Manning plays such a huge role in Harrison's success. Wouldn't Harrison be just as great if he played for the Rams or Cardinals?
                  Depends on what you mean by "great". Would he still have his amazing route running skills, speed, and ability to make tough catches? Yes. Would CBs still say he's the toughest WR in the NFL to cover? Yes. Would he have the same level of production? I doubt it, because the performance level of the QB would be lesser, and thus his production levels would suffer.

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  My point remains that you are talking out of both sides of your neck. You're going to the extreme to defend both of these players.
                  No I'm not, I'm simply stating facts. Do you honestly think that playing with Montana, Young, and Gannon (in his MVP caliber years) didn't help Jerry Rice at all? Do you think he'd have anywhere near the career numbers he has now had he played with Phil Simms, Chris Chandler, and Brad Johnson? Obviously a WR has to be talented to be productive, but having a great QB will always help.

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  Manning "makes" his WR's who they are.
                  Who's putting words in whose mouth?

                  Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
                  That said, I don't think any player "makes" any other player.
                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  Yet Harrison is the best WR in the game.
                  Torry Holt is the only WR in the NFL currently that comes close to his consistent production levels (though Holt doesn't catch as many TDs), and the best CBs of the NFL say he's the toughest WR to cover. If you don't agree with my opinion, that's fine, but there's substantial evidence to back it.

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  Is Manning the greatest QB ever? I don't think so.
                  Did I say he was? No. Could he be by the end of his career? It's possible.

                  Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                  You're exaggerating the greatness of both players, and playing them off each other in order to do so. That is what I take issue with. Just keep it real. They are both great players, and as a Colts fan, you should feel lucky to have seen the stars align in much the same way they did in '80s frisco. There is absolutely no need at all to overstate the value of either of them. The numbers they end up posting will do that for them. In other words, it's questionable whether either of them would be in this conversation if it weren't for each other and the team they play for. I know you know this, so just act accordingly.
                  They make each other better. I acknowledge that. Does that mean they aren't great players seperately? No. If you think that playing together is the only reason Manning and Harrison are great players, do you rate Rice lower for playing with Montana, Young, and Gannon, or Montana lower for playing with Rice? You should if you rate Manning and Harrison lower for playing with each other.


                  The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

                  If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

                  <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
                  <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

                  Comment


                  • Wow. It would require far too much of my time to properly respond to all that. I'll just remind you of the post that I originally took issue with-

                    Originally posted by Dam8610 View Post
                    You should really look at Harrison, Pollard, and Stokely prior to having Manning as their QB, and having Manning as their QB. He just about doubled each of their production levels. But you're right, Elway and Marino are the only ones that can make a WR.
                    You said that. I responded. If you'd like to rescind those comments, that's fine.
                    Otherwise, I stand by everything I've said.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by duckseason View Post
                      Wow. It would require far too much of my time to properly respond to all that.
                      Then why bother responding at all? Everything else you said in this post has already been addressed earlier in the thread, so you can go find it if you'd like attempt to continue a circular discussion on that particular comment, but I've already addressed that, so I doubt I'll be continuing any discussion about it.


                      The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

                      If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

                      <Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
                      <Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

                      Comment

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