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  • TacticaLion
    started a topic Is it true that...

    Is it true that...

    ... a QB that passes more will get sacked more?

    For some reason, "baronzeus" is trying to argue that a QB that passes more WILL get sacked more, and I don't feel it is true.

    Originally posted by baronzeus
    So you don't agree that in general a team that passes more will be sacked more? Seems like a silly argument. Using premium pass rush stopping O-lines as a counterexample doesn't really pose a good argument.
    I even provided the following information:

    QBs - Most Passing Attempts:

    Brett Favre - 613 Attempts - 21 Sacks
    Jon Kitna - 596 Attempts - 63 Sacks
    Marc Bulger - 588 Attempts - 49 Sacks
    Peyton Manning - 557 Attempts - 14 Sacks
    Drew Brees - 554 Attempts - 18 Sacks

    Peyton Manning and Drew Brees were two of the least-sacked QBs in the NFL, while Marc Bulger and Jon Kitna were two of the most. Brett Favre had a THIRD of the sacks that Jon Kitna had, and less than half of the sacks that Marc Bulger had. Green Bay, Indianapolis and New Orleans are 3 of the 5 teams that gave up the fewest sacks.

    Other QBs - Passing Attempts - Sacks

    Daunte Culpepper - 134 Attempts - 21 Sacks
    Trent Green - 198 Attempts - 24 Sacks
    Aaron Brooks - 192 Attempts - 26 Sacks
    Andrew Walter - 276 Attempts - 46 Sacks
    Bruce Gradkowski - 328 Attempts - 25 Sacks

    Peyton Manning passed more times than Daunte Culpepper, Trent Green and Aaron Brooks combined (524 attempts), and was sacked less than each of them individually. Andrew Walter passed 312 times less than Marc Bulger, but was sacked only 3 times fewer.

    How can he think this is true? I believe that the quality of the offensive line and the talent of the QB dictate how much the QB will get sacked, he believes the number of passing attempts dictates how much the QB will get sacked.

    Which is it?

  • TacticaLion
    replied
    Originally posted by Eaglez.Fan
    This is just like do WR's that get the ball most drop the most passes, well yah they do becaus ethey get the most opportunites but somone should figure out the percentage of QB's that get sacked out of every pass attempted
    That's a similar argument, and I also disagree with it.

    I think the WR's that get the ball most have the chance to drop the most passes, but I think the WR's with the worst hands/concentration drop the most passes. To me (as with the QB/sacks argument), it's a matter of talent and ability... it isn't JUST opportunity.

    Leave a comment:


  • TacticaLion
    replied
    Originally posted by njx9
    Originally posted by baronzeus
    And given that Kitna threw the second most passes in the league (around 600 whereas the raiders threw about 450 times) he's expected to be sacked the (second) most.
    you missed a key word. the original quote doesn't say he WOULD be, just that he would be EXPECTED to be. this is a reasonable assertion. saying he HAS to be is not. you're apparently arguing two different things, one is true (that A does not result in B always) the other is not (that A would be more likely to result in B).
    There's the problem: he's making an argument, saying that the Lions' OLine isnt nearly as bad because Kitna passed the (second) most in the NFL.

    I don't think its reasonable to say that the player that passes the most is EXPECTED to be. I think it IS reasonable to say the player that has the worst OLine is expected to be sacked the most.

    To me, the talent of the OLine is a more accurate indicator than the number of passing attempts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eaglez.Fan
    replied
    This is just like do WR's that get the ball most drop the most passes, well yah they do becaus ethey get the most opportunites but somone should figure out the percentage of QB's that get sacked out of every pass attempted

    Leave a comment:


  • njx9
    replied
    Originally posted by baronzeus
    And given that Kitna threw the second most passes in the league (around 600 whereas the raiders threw about 450 times) he's expected to be sacked the (second) most.
    you missed a key word. the original quote doesn't say he WOULD be, just that he would be EXPECTED to be. this is a reasonable assertion. saying he HAS to be is not. you're apparently arguing two different things, one is true (that A does not result in B always) the other is not (that A would be more likely to result in B).

    Leave a comment:


  • TacticaLion
    replied
    Originally posted by jag
    Ok heres my thoughts. The talent of the QB is a part of how many times they will be sacked.. But DG is right in saying "the more you pass...." because, Peyton Manning gets sacked however many times throwing the ball 30 times a game. Now, if he throws the ball 40 times a game he WILL be sacked more than if he threw it 30 times.

    You can't compare QB's because the talent is diffrent.
    Ok. To put this to rest, read this. This whole thing started with this statement made by "baronzeus".
    Originally posted by baronzeus
    And given that Kitna threw the second most passes in the league (around 600 whereas the raiders threw about 450 times) he's expected to be sacked the (second) most.
    I found a HUGE flaw in that statement, considering the overall number of attempts does NOT match the overall number of sacks. Then, "draftguru" made the following statement:
    Originally posted by draftguru151
    If a QB throws more passes he will be sacked more, that's just plain common sense.
    Which is incorrect.

    If Kitna is expected to be sacked the (second) most because he threw the second most passes in the league, shouldn't the QB that threw the MOST passes get sacked MOST in the league (using that logic)? The following research is provided:

    QBs - Most Passing Attempts
    1. Brett Favre - 613
    2. Jon Kitna - 596
    3. Marc Bulger - 588
    4. Peyton Manning - 557
    5. Drew Brees - 554

    QBs - Most Times Sacked
    1. Jon Kitna - 63
    2. Marc Bulger - 49
    3. J.P. Losman - 47
    4. Ben Roethlisberger - 46
    5. Andrew Walter - 46

    Using his logic, How did Peyton Manning and Drew Brees pass more than J.P. Losman, Big Ben and Walter and get sacked less?

    Which was my exact point, from the start to now: a QB that passes more will not necessarily get sacked more than another QB. It gives him the CHANCE to get sacked more, but it wont necessarily happen. And why not?

    Answer this, and you'll see my point: why isnt Brett Favre one of the most sacked QBs of the year?

    (If you can answer that question with ANY response, you've proven my point.)

    Leave a comment:


  • jag
    replied
    Ok heres my thoughts. The talent of the QB is a part of how many times they will be sacked.. But DG is right in saying "the more you pass...." because, Peyton Manning gets sacked however many times throwing the ball 30 times a game. Now, if he throws the ball 40 times a game he WILL be sacked more than if he threw it 30 times.

    You can't compare QB's because the talent is diffrent.

    Leave a comment:


  • TacticaLion
    replied
    Originally posted by Tubby
    Originally posted by draftguru151
    The original poster made the question sound completely different. It is if everything is the same except the QB throws more in one and less in the other. Same OL, same QB, same offense, same WR, same everything, except one throws 40 times and one throws 30. It is quite obvious the guy who throws 40 times will be sacked more often.
    I dont think that TL has any kind of legit argument against this (TL, I read the whole topic, and your argument is the equivalent of a four year olds). He completely butchered the question in the topic which resulted in a lopsided vote. As a mod, abuse your powers. Please.
    No... if you read the argument, go back and try again.

    Originally posted by draftguru151
    If a QB throws more passes he will be sacked more, that's just plain common sense.
    That's what he said... that was the argument he was trying to make. And, it isnt true. This is the NFL, and you see it every week. It doesn't matter how many times the QB drops back to pass in the NFL... if Peyton Manning drops back to pass 30 times, he may get sacked once. If Walter drops back to pass 15 times, he may get sacked 3 times. How, after looking at the stats, can you argue this?

    I'm not going to sit here and say "If a QB has the same everything and drops back to pass 30 times, then 20 times, he'll get sacked more with the 30 times". Why? First of all, this is the NFL. We have proof. We dont need these little hypothetical situations when we have REAL FACTS that we can use. You can sit there and think of all of the imaginary situations you'd like to that help prove your point... but none of them are true and none of them happen. Then, you've got my situation... the NFL. In the NFL, there are many reasons as to why a QB gets sacked... and it IS NOT JUST THE NUMBER OF PASSING ATTEMPTS!

    Originally posted by draftguru151
    If a QB throws more passes he will be sacked more, that's just plain common sense.
    I'll post it again.

    Originally posted by draftguru151
    If a QB throws more passes he will be sacked more, that's just plain common sense.
    That's what he said... that was the argument he was trying to make. "But! But! If he throws it 3,000 times or 5 times!..." NO! That isn't just "more"... "more" is "If he throws it 3,000 times or 2,995 times, is it a FACT that he will be sacked more?" The answer is no. It is not a fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • PalmerToCJ
    replied
    How about this one....

    Take two QB's... Lets say QB #1 is named Hank and QB #2 is Jon Kitna and put them behind the same Oline. Hank will get sacked less because he is not Jon Kitna, Jon Kitna's decisions in the pocket knock his Oline down a notch. I should know, I watched that small handed man play for way too long.

    Leave a comment:


  • MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
    replied
    Originally posted by yodachu
    Originally posted by NGSeiler
    Originally posted by yodachu
    Bulger's were due to the O-Line being dip-shits for a few weeks.
    Only a few weeks?
    No, I was trying to be nice.
    A few can be used to classify seventeen.






    BTW, what thread was this in?

    Leave a comment:


  • yodabear
    replied
    Originally posted by NGSeiler
    Originally posted by yodachu
    Bulger's were due to the O-Line being dip-shits for a few weeks.
    Only a few weeks?
    No, I was trying to be nice.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheChampIsHere
    replied
    For the Raiders as an example. Andrew Walter was getting sacked almost every time he dropped back. The team mostly ran the ball b/c our passing game was innefective but every 3rd and long we passed and Walter would get sacked b/c 1) our OL is pathetic 2) he is a statue....thats why he got sacked all day every game, not because the Raiders passed too much...

    Leave a comment:


  • KILLERSANTA
    replied
    No.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Tubby
    replied
    Originally posted by draftguru151
    The original poster made the question sound completely different. It is if everything is the same except the QB throws more in one and less in the other. Same OL, same QB, same offense, same WR, same everything, except one throws 40 times and one throws 30. It is quite obvious the guy who throws 40 times will be sacked more often.
    I dont think that TL has any kind of legit argument against this (TL, I read the whole topic, and your argument is the equivalent of a four year olds). He completely butchered the question in the topic which resulted in a lopsided vote. As a mod, abuse your powers. Please.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Jim
    replied
    A lot of factors, but Brett Favre does a good job of scrambling away or just getting away from pressure.

    Leave a comment:

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