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  • I knew this was gunna happen and I'm not even upset because it was so expected

    By the way, Keary Colbert once again comes up small in the regular season. I never again want to hear how good he looks in camp

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    • Texans fan here. I just wanted to say that Steve Smith had a badass touchdown run. Also I want to wish you guys a good rest of the season.

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      • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
        I knew this was gunna happen and I'm not even upset because it was so expected

        By the way, Keary Colbert once again comes up small in the regular season. I never again want to hear how good he looks in camp
        The whole team looked bad. He is one bad throw away from having over 100 yards.

        Fox isn't on the hot seat though, it is a seat of freaking fire. It is clear that Fox's formula has failed.

        Stop bringing in these heralded free agents, they don't help and they have no passion. Kemoeatu is just a huge punching bag for the oline to push around. Ken Lucas is pathetic now and doesn't do anything right. Hartwig was a huge waste of money.

        We have been awful the last few years in the draft and it is hurting us really freaking bad. There is no drive to win, these guys all think they have their job secured and they can just breeze through.

        We constantly get told be the announcers that we have such a great front seven. But we still get run over and blocked like we are a team of undrafted rookies. We can't rely on this scheme where we expect to win because of our talent. Play calling beats talent everyday.

        Also, Kemoeatu needs to be benched. He was nothing but a pawn in a Ravens defense. Damien Lewis has shown some spunk. I don't care if he isn't great against the run, as long as he shows desire he is better. Marshall needs to be elevated and take Lucas' spot.

        No excuses for Fox this time, this team was completely healthy and completely pathetic.

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        • Kemo sucks, he always has. He gets a pass from most fans because his job isn't to show up in the stats. That doesnt mean he still cant suck at his job. He gets no push whatsoever, plays too upright and gets blown up way too often

          Hartwig was a bust from day one and I agree that Lucas has not been good since his first year. Also **** Nail Diggs for knocking the ball away from Marshall on the onside kick. I know it wouldnt have mattered anyway but that pissed me off. Colbert is just garbage, give it up. He has trouble getting separation and when he does he drops the ball. The bomb wasnt his fault cuz Jake underthrew him but he sucked everywhere else. And a good WR could have come up with that tipped ball

          Kalil was bad today, btw. I hope Bridges starts next week

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          • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
            Kemo sucks, he always has. He gets a pass from most fans because his job isn't to show up in the stats. That doesnt mean he still cant suck at his job. He gets no push whatsoever, plays too upright and gets blown up way too often

            Hartwig was a bust from day one and I agree that Lucas has not been good since his first year. Also **** Nail Diggs for knocking the ball away from Marshall on the onside kick. I know it wouldnt have mattered anyway but that pissed me off. Colbert is just garbage, give it up. He has trouble getting separation and when he does he drops the ball. The bomb wasnt his fault cuz Jake underthrew him but he sucked everywhere else. And a good WR could have come up with that tipped ball

            Kalil was bad today, btw. I hope Bridges starts next week
            I'm not going to argue anymore about the Colbert play, because it won't really matter.



            The Fox formula over the past few years has been to bring in proven talent, at almost any cost.

            See Ken Lucas a few years ago, an up and coming corner with ability against the run and the pass. A fierce competitor sure to help the defense after Ricky Manning got picked on all year.

            Or Perhaps Ma'ake Kemoeatu. A giant nose tackle who was a run stuffer and a big part in the Raven defense against the run. He was brought in to beef up our interior. We had just gotten man handled by Seattle after we started Buckner and Carstens.

            We also brought in Keyshawn Johnson, after the Seahawks were able to contain Smith because we had no threat to make them scared of dedicating so many players to one man.

            Now, today Ken Lucas can't cover anyone including the other teams 4th string WR without being flagged for pass interference. Kemoeatu gets pushed three yards off the ball almost reguraly, and really doesn't do anything other than act as a big obstacle that teams just run around. And Keyshawn now works for ESPN, and proved finally once and for all that it didn't matter who was at the other WR position because Henning was plain and simple a dumbass.

            The Fox plan was to go out and get guys to fill holes, and almost always overspend in the process. Kemoeatu is the most overpaid football sled in the NFL. Hartwig hasn't been anything worth what he is getting, and Lucas hasn't earned a paycheck since '05.

            Now, lets look at the up and coming young talent we have. Not including this last year, our drafting has been completely awful. Right now, out of three years our highlights include Richard Marshall, and hopefully Jeff King, DeAngelo and Thomas Davis. We have failed on almost every other pick not including this past years. I am not including them because they have yet to show, however they are looking good.

            We aren't going to be able to fix our problems through free agency like we have been trying to do almost every year. We need to built through the draft and get guys in there who are playing for a roster spot and their first paycheck.

            Hopefully this past draft will turn the tides and Cowher will be able to light a fire under this team, because Fox sure can't. We can't keep trying to fill our deficiencies with talent and ignoring that it is actually a schematic shortcoming. Why is our front seven considered a top unit if we let teams run through us like we are a JV squad and block us like we are rushing three Kemoeatus?

            Changes are needed, this defense isn't any different than last years. Both in personel and in coaches.

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            • Lucas was a good pick up in 05 though. And he didnt really have a bad game today. I'm willing to give him a couple more games before I start irrationally hating him. Everyone else I don't really care about. I wouldnt mind if we just cut every safety on the roster and pulled in two guys off the street

              I still don't think Fox is the problem but it's getting to the point where I'm starting to become neutral on whether or not he stays. He just plays the game too safe. You see Kubiak going for it on 4th and 4 early in the game against us and later we're down by 14 trying to draw people offsides with 4th and 1. Of course it doesnt work (never does) and we punt. Ridiculous. I just dont want to go back to the days where we would have given our first born for an 8-8 season instead of it being a colossal disappointment.

              Also the contracts aren't Fox's fault. It's Hurney, who is a terrible GM. He knows nothing about football so he lets the coaching staff have WAY too much control. Then he isn't even good when it comes to the contracts because he massively overpays everyone

              Oh I forgot to unleash my anger on Goings. Good job Nick, you're only back there returning kicks because all the other guys we've tried sucked balls and danced too much. You're there because you run straight forward and never do anything stupid. So what do you do? Try to run laterally and fumble on the 15. Nice job

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              • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
                Lucas was a good pick up in 05 though. And he didnt really have a bad game today. I'm willing to give him a couple more games before I start irrationally hating him. Everyone else I don't really care about. I wouldnt mind if we just cut every safety on the roster and pulled in two guys off the street

                I still don't think Fox is the problem but it's getting to the point where I'm starting to become neutral on whether or not he stays. He just plays the game too safe. You see Kubiak going for it on 4th and 4 early in the game against us and later we're down by 14 trying to draw people offsides with 4th and 1. Of course it doesnt work (never does) and we punt. Ridiculous. I just dont want to go back to the days where we would have given our first born for an 8-8 season instead of it being a colossal disappointment.

                Also the contracts aren't Fox's fault. It's Hurney, who is a terrible GM. He knows nothing about football so he lets the coaching staff have WAY too much control. Then he isn't even good when it comes to the contracts because he massively overpays everyone

                Oh I forgot to unleash my anger on Goings. Good job Nick, you're only back there returning kicks because all the other guys we've tried sucked balls and danced too much. You're there because you run straight forward and never do anything stupid. So what do you do? Try to run laterally and fumble on the 15. Nice job
                Sorry, but if their is one person held responsible for the failure of the team it is John Fox. It is his fault that Trgovac is still here, and most likely his fault that our defense plays so god damn freaking soft. If our play book is sooo complicated, why does it confuse none of the offenses that play us?

                Lucas, I can see the desire to play well. But he isn't playing well. Two pass interferences last week, beaten in coverage this week, combined with last year it is just getting annoying. Lucas is one of my favorite players, and while I don't think his signing is a failure like the others, he is not playing well.

                The problem is to me, is that we keep guys like Kemoeatu because they are taking money up. While we cut guys who play well and play with passion like Jarrett Bush.

                IDK, I watch the Packers or Bears defense and it is like seeing what a defense should be like. High intensity, get the mother ______ job done at any cost attitude. Then I see our defense and I know that we are about to give up this 4th and four, because it happens every time.

                We need to draft guys and give them a damn chance to grow in the system. The more they play together the better they will get. But we have a revolving door at the middle linebacker and safety position. We can't just keep cutting these kids short of their chance to develop. Of course they are going to screw up, but they need to or else they won't get better. I still think we pulled the plug on Davis too soon, though McCree was a great player that year.

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                • Hi guys. Haven't been around much lately cause I started back to college. All I can say is John Fox needs to go.

                  3 years we've had the EXACT same problems that he's shown no ability to fix.

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                  • See, the thing with Fox is, you guys just assume by pushing him out of the door it fixes all the problems. We got rid of Henning, cool, but Davidson still calls draws on 3rd and long which you all seemed to hate so much. Overall he's been good so far (I especially like the opening drive success) but as soon as we lose a game 20-3 youll be calling for his head too. It's always the coaches fault, right?

                    Example #1 why maybe you should just be happy with what you have:
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norv_Turner

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                    • And see, the problem you're missing is that the coordinators can only do what Fox allows them to. If Fox didn't want a 3rd and long draw play, then they wouldn't be called. If Fox wanted us to blitz more instead of staying in a soft shell getting absolutely no pressure on the opposing qb while he has all day to pick us apart, than we would be.

                      We've lost games the past three years for the same exact reasons...soft defense, declining special teams coverage & returns, a very vanilla offense.

                      If you're getting beat the exact same way every time you lose, then that's the coach not making changes to fix things that are broken.

                      At what point will you stop being loyal to Fox for a Super Bowl we lost going on 4 seasons ago and admit that part of the reasons we've lost games since has been because he can't fix the problems that we have?

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                      • The lack of blitzing is a product of our players. We have no safeties, blizting constantly would be absolutely moronic. And our linebackers aren't very good either, for that matter. Dan Morgan got abused by Ahman Green yesterday, Davis actually looks better this year but he still has lapses and Beason is a rookie. Every single Carolina fan massively overrates the talent of this team. Now sure, you could argue it's the coaching staffs fault for not acquiring the right players but again that goes back to Marty Hurney for me. In what other sport is the coach blamed for not getting the right players? And no, Isiah Thomas does not count. Also, we were not a Super Bowl team talent-wise in 2003 either. Ricky Manning Jr was our best CB that year. We had the same inconsistent QB that we have now, except it was his first year starting.

                        Don't get me wrong, I don't like Fox's coaching style one bit because it's too conservative and he's too loyal to some players. But you know what, the list of coaches I'd get behind is about three people long. And I wouldn't expect the Richardsons to hire any of them, much less for them to be available this offseason.

                        And FWIW, I am not cowtowing to Fox because of the Super Bowl. How many teams can you be MASSIVELY DISAPPOINTED in to go 8-8 with? His worst record is 7-9. The hate of Fox is a product of his success

                        Before hiring John Fox, the Panthers team record was 46-66 (1-1 in playoffs)

                        Since, it's 45-37 (5-2 in playoffs)

                        If he goes 6-10 or 5-11 this year fine, get rid of him and hire George Seifert, errr I mean Bill Cowher. The team is 1-1 right now though, it's a little premature to close up shop on the season, don't ya think? And if we go 7-9 or 8-8 and miss the playoffs again, fine, he's still gone. I don't see the Richardsons doing it unless he's way under .500 but I won't care.

                        And don't get the idea that I'm too settled with Fox and am scared of change or something like that. I've wanted Crossman fired since last year and still do. He never had success at the NFL level, has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he will and constantly does idiotic things, not to mention his unit as a whole is garbage. I'm also a Mets fan who has wanted Willie Randolph fired since last year, and they're in first place in a similar situation to the Panthers (crappy conference, team with a relative lack of historic success). I trust Fox because he has had success recently and generally, executes his gameplan well. I believe his gameplan is ****ed up currently because it relies on good ST play and an average running game, so let's see if he can adjust with what we have now. If not, then I guess it's time to move on, since this franchise has had one year with an average-above average running game and as long as Crossman is here, the ST will be bottom tier

                        I don't trust Randolph because his moves never make any sense and he knows this, because he explains it in the media by saying he "goes with his gut." He was massively underqualified for his job when he was hired and he actually has a team way more talented than anyone else in his conference. Imagine how good the Panthers would be if Smith and Peppers were still on their rookie contracts and we could go out and buy Adalius Thomas and Randy Moss as two year stopgaps. As it stands, this team is basically just Smith and Peppers. And Peppers hasn't done much this season. I'm sure that's 100% Trgovac's fault though, right?


                        Anyway, I'm getting sick of this circular argument so that'll be the last long post I make unless someone actually suggests Cowher would be a good idea. Back to this season, Dante Wesley is out indefinetly (read: the season) with a broken collarbone. That's a shame, because now our list of good ST players is back down to one

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                        • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
                          See, the thing with Fox is, you guys just assume by pushing him out of the door it fixes all the problems. We got rid of Henning, cool, but Davidson still calls draws on 3rd and long which you all seemed to hate so much. Overall he's been good so far (I especially like the opening drive success) but as soon as we lose a game 20-3 youll be calling for his head too. It's always the coaches fault, right?

                          Example #1 why maybe you should just be happy with what you have:
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norv_Turner
                          The fans that hate the draw on third and long are ignorant and don't understand football. At that point last year, we had nobody other than Smith and Delhomme was shaky when he was forced to throw to another receiver. I would gladly take a draw instead of throwing an interception. We have one of the best weapons for field position in Baker, so we try and use him. I don't see Davidson making the draw the staple play it was for Henning on third down. Go watch other teams, they don't always use it, but when they do it can be very successful. The reasons ours don't work is because we use it too much.

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                          • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
                            The lack of blitzing is a product of our players. We have no safeties, blizting constantly would be absolutely moronic. And our linebackers aren't very good either, for that matter. Dan Morgan got abused by Ahman Green yesterday, Davis actually looks better this year but he still has lapses and Beason is a rookie. Every single Carolina fan massively overrates the talent of this team. Now sure, you could argue it's the coaching staffs fault for not acquiring the right players but again that goes back to Marty Hurney for me. In what other sport is the coach blamed for not getting the right players? And no, Isiah Thomas does not count. Also, we were not a Super Bowl team talent-wise in 2003 either. Ricky Manning Jr was our best CB that year. We had the same inconsistent QB that we have now, except it was his first year starting.

                            Don't get me wrong, I don't like Fox's coaching style one bit because it's too conservative and he's too loyal to some players. But you know what, the list of coaches I'd get behind is about three people long. And I wouldn't expect the Richardsons to hire any of them, much less for them to be available this offseason.

                            And FWIW, I am not cowtowing to Fox because of the Super Bowl. How many teams can you be MASSIVELY DISAPPOINTED in to go 8-8 with? His worst record is 7-9. The hate of Fox is a product of his success

                            Before hiring John Fox, the Panthers team record was 46-66 (1-1 in playoffs)

                            Since, it's 45-37 (5-2 in playoffs)

                            If he goes 6-10 or 5-11 this year fine, get rid of him and hire George Seifert, errr I mean Bill Cowher. The team is 1-1 right now though, it's a little premature to close up shop on the season, don't ya think? And if we go 7-9 or 8-8 and miss the playoffs again, fine, he's still gone. I don't see the Richardsons doing it unless he's way under .500 but I won't care.

                            And don't get the idea that I'm too settled with Fox and am scared of change or something like that. I've wanted Crossman fired since last year and still do. He never had success at the NFL level, has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he will and constantly does idiotic things, not to mention his unit as a whole is garbage. I'm also a Mets fan who has wanted Willie Randolph fired since last year, and they're in first place in a similar situation to the Panthers (crappy conference, team with a relative lack of historic success). I trust Fox because he has had success recently and generally, executes his gameplan well. I believe his gameplan is ****ed up currently because it relies on good ST play and an average running game, so let's see if he can adjust with what we have now. If not, then I guess it's time to move on, since this franchise has had one year with an average-above average running game and as long as Crossman is here, the ST will be bottom tier
                            It is the Head Coaches fault and the GM's fault for overpaying under qualified players, and expecting that they can just fix their problems by sticking them in there. They don't change anything schematically until finally they changed the offense. This defense plays as individuals, and that is because they go out and get individuals.

                            John Fox has had one game that was great game planning. That was against the Falcons in 05 when we were everywhere against Vick. Other than that we have relied on our front four to get pressure and hide deficiencies in the secondary scheme.

                            Our front 7, or at least 4 is being over rated. I agree of course that they are because they play like **** half the time. But on paper, they should be on the level of the Bears. Perhaps not front 7, but their front four should be able to be comparable to the Bears on paper. It is the coaches job to get this team to play to their best, but they don't.

                            Our drafting is based on John Fox's system and what players he likes. He really has no system, and we really rely on lots of talent at certain positions to get by. While other teams find guys to grow to fit their system.

                            I have to go right now, I'll finish this post later.

                            Comment


                            • I can't remember what I was going to add to my post but anyway.

                              I am not against bringing in good players. But it REALLY seems like we did it trying to fix our team thinking we are one player away from the big one. We did it hoping that we could fix it, instead of fixing the scheme or game plan.

                              There is something seriously wrong when teams consistently find holes like that in your supposed top defense.

                              We are known overspenders, look at Kemo, a big fat guy you takes 2 more seconds to move out of the way compared to a smaller guy. He has nothing to offer other than size.

                              I found this article and I really think it hits the nail on the head:

                              In baseball, a team like the New York Yankees can pillage and steal the best players from various teams throughout the league and still win their division, all the while cackling and stroking their mustache like a villain tying a woman to a set of train tracks. Yet in the NFL this almost never works. Each player on an NFL roster is a member of one cohesive unit as opposed to the one-on-one nature of baseball. Because of that, unit chemistry is a vital element of a successful football team, and you usually don't have good chemistry when you bring in big-money free agents.

                              Just look at the Washington Redskins. Prior to the 2006 season, they brought in high-profile players Adam Archuleta, Antwaan Randle El and former 49ers Brandon Lloyd and Andre Carter. What happened? They finished the season 5-11. Not that this is anything new, seeing as how the Redskins are run like the Madden franchise of someone with Attention Deficit Disorder and zero patience. Highly talented players are brought in each and every offseason, yet as the payroll gets bigger the team gets worse. The result has been just one winning campaign this century.

                              However, as Neil McCauley told Vincent Hanna over a cup of coffee, "There is a flip side to that coin." Every once in a while, a team gets it right. When used properly, free agency can be a fantastic team-building tool. The most successful teams are ones built through the draft while signing several "role players" who fit with the coach's philosophy. The one consistent in the effective use of free agency is to avoid signing multiple high-profile players.
                              http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/17483.html

                              Now, of course there are always exceptions, I am not saying this is law. But, doesn't it make sense? This is the part that is our problem in my opinion:
                              Yet in the NFL this almost never works. Each player on an NFL roster is a member of one cohesive unit as opposed to the one-on-one nature of baseball. Because of that, unit chemistry is a vital element of a successful football team, and you usually don't have good chemistry when you bring in big-money free agents.

                              Go look around the league at the top defenses, the Bears, Chargers, Ravens, and the Patriots.

                              The Bears of two players that were not drafted by the Bears. One being Archuleta, and the other Hillenmeyer who they picked up in his second year.

                              The Chargers have one player, Marlon McCree.

                              Ravens have 3, Rolle, Greg, and Pryce. However, Greg was picked up a while back, and both Rolle and Pryce were brought in to be role players and they fit the system. When a player leaves the Ravens, they don't usually have to go out and sign someone, they believe that they can fill that hole with one of their own or draft someone.

                              The Patriots have Vrable, who they picked up in 01, who wasn't really much of anything, Colvin a solid player and sometimes impact guy, and then a money man in Thomas.

                              You could even throw in the Green Bay Packers, who's defense is getting better very very fast. They have two players not drafted by them.
                              ___

                              Now, lets look at the Panthers.

                              We have four guys not drafted by us. Lucas, Kemo, Harris, Cooper. However, you could pretty much add Morgan to that equation because him coming back every year is like getting a new MLB. All of the above teams have two things our team doesn't. Cohesiveness, and just as importantly, passion and fire for the game.

                              Over the last two years we have had 5 different guys playing the safety spot, 2 MLBs, 2 WOLB, and 4 DT. We haven't fielded relatively the same defense in consecutive years since IDK when.

                              We played our best defense in 04 when we just went out and tried to win and take it to the other team instead of trying to no lose. We really haven't done that consistently since then.

                              I think we pull the plug too early on guys and we don't have a system that will allow the defense to mesh. Its like watching 11 individuals play defense.

                              Special teams is another disgusting story.

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                              • I don't really disagree with anything you said. Of course, the issue comes back to the draft. I'm sure if we had another DT emerge (or if Jenkins wasn't a fat slob who had rehabbed properly) we don't throw money away on Kemo. I'm sure if Colin Branch was even the least bit competent, he's on this team starting right now. I'm sure if Nate Salley wasn't injured he'd be out there, despite my questions about his ability.

                                And as you saw, you're ok to go out and buy 1-2 players. Lucas I think fits that bill, provided he plays like he should. Even if he doesn't, Marshall is there who I honestly believe might be the third best player on our team. So we're a Kemoeatu injury away from being no different from the Ravens. Harris could fit under the "got him while he was young" and Cooper is well, whatever, but safeties are basically "role players who fit the coaches philosophy" as your quote indicates under Fox anyway.

                                Also, it's a bit of a flawed argument because the shelf life of a successful baseball player is a lot longer than that of football. There's guys over 40 in baseball now who have seen 5 different contracts. Of course most teams in the NFL are constructed with homegrown players, once you hit 30 your career is basically over. Mike Minter just retired at 33. Alfonso Soriano just signed an 8 year contract at 31

                                I think as Panther fans we should be the first to throw the "on paper" argument out the window with regards to our front four. Kemo is Kemo, Jenkins is a question mark at this point but he was NOT pro bowl caliber last year regardless of his selection and Rucker is 32. Objectively, our DLine is Peppers and 3 guys.

                                I didn't like bringing Morgan back either, but I think that was more Richardson than anyone else, same with Foster. So what now, we have to get rid of the owner?

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