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  • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
    I don't really disagree with anything you said. Of course, the issue comes back to the draft. I'm sure if we had another DT emerge (or if Jenkins wasn't a fat slob who had rehabbed properly) we don't throw money away on Kemo. I'm sure if Colin Branch was even the least bit competent, he's on this team starting right now. I'm sure if Nate Salley wasn't injured he'd be out there, despite my questions about his ability.

    And as you saw, you're ok to go out and buy 1-2 players. Lucas I think fits that bill, provided he plays like he should. Even if he doesn't, Marshall is there who I honestly believe might be the third best player on our team. So we're a Kemoeatu injury away from being no different from the Ravens. Harris could fit under the "got him while he was young" and Cooper is well, whatever, but safeties are basically "role players who fit the coaches philosophy" as your quote indicates under Fox anyway.

    Also, it's a bit of a flawed argument because the shelf life of a successful baseball player is a lot longer than that of football. There's guys over 40 in baseball now who have seen 5 different contracts. Of course most teams in the NFL are constructed with homegrown players, once you hit 30 your career is basically over. Mike Minter just retired at 33. Alfonso Soriano just signed an 8 year contract at 31

    I think as Panther fans we should be the first to throw the "on paper" argument out the window with regards to our front four. Kemo is Kemo, Jenkins is a question mark at this point but he was NOT pro bowl caliber last year regardless of his selection and Rucker is 32. Objectively, our DLine is Peppers and 3 guys.

    I didn't like bringing Morgan back either, but I think that was more Richardson than anyone else, same with Foster. So what now, we have to get rid of the owner?
    I love Lucas, and unlike Kemo, I can see that he cares. I am not hating Lucas, We tried to fill the hole without really taking care of it. Your defenses scheme and running it right should be the first priority, not talent, that will come as your team gets better. I think we have failed to get this team to run correctly and have just tried to get guys who we think we can just plug in. Lucas has had a great year here, Kemo hasn't. People will say he doesn't show up in the stats, but that is because he is being pushed 5 yards off the line of scrimmage. (btw, I'm not really using the Baseball argument anyway, it obviously isn't a direct correlation but it has a bit of a point)

    Yeah, our "paper lion" defense is not what it is thought to be. Jenkins didn't deserve the pro bowl selection, Rucker has lost a step or three, and Kemo is a fat man.

    I would much rather see Damion Lewis in there in replacement of Kemo. At least then we will have someone else who can rush the passer, and though people say he isn't good against the run, neither was Kemo. Actually, twice Lewis brought Green down in the backfield.
    _____

    Getting Jon Beason was a great pick so far, Kalil will grow, and hopefully Dwayne gives us something to look forward to at the other WR position but I don't know if he is the answer. The whole USC WR thing isn't working out to well for people latley.

    I think I said in this thread a while ago that I viewed this year as a growing year and I think I am right about that.

    We really need a solid draft next year and we can get back into things. Also, another thing to remember in the John Fox situation is that the Giants job is possibly going to be open soon. I wouldn't doubt that he would jump on it if he doesn't do well here.

    I don't really prefer Cohwer, but it looks like that would be a probably move. I would prefer someone from the Ravens or Patriots defensive coaching tree. That, or possibly Ron Rivera, or a guy I just thought of, Mike Singletary.

    Singletary would bring some great intensity to our defense, though I don't know if he is qualified. I think I read something about him being DC for someone last year. Just throwin it out there.

    Comment


    • I don't know that Cowher is a good fit. I don't know why, but I just have a feeling that he'll be a letdown for whatever team he goes to when he decides he's ready to coach again.

      A name I've milled over some is one of the Ryan brothers. Rex is the DC for the Ravens and Rob is DC for the Raiders. I can't really decide between the two which I'd prefer, though if I had to I'd probably lean towards Rob at this point.

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      • Originally posted by JPF View Post
        I don't know that Cowher is a good fit. I don't know why, but I just have a feeling that he'll be a letdown for whatever team he goes to when he decides he's ready to coach again.

        A name I've milled over some is one of the Ryan brothers. Rex is the DC for the Ravens and Rob is DC for the Raiders. I can't really decide between the two which I'd prefer, though if I had to I'd probably lean towards Rob at this point.
        Yeah, it depends on if they bring their philosophies with them. Some guys like Dick Lebaue (spelled wrong) never made it as HC but are excellent coordinators.

        Fox seems like the Cohwer type of coach that is more of the leader then the real schemer behind the scenes like a Belichick, or a Bill Walsh where the HC is really hands on and calls and organizes a side of the ball.

        I don't like the idea of Cohwer really either, but he is a better leader, a lot more animated than Fox. We could use some damn emotion. But I don't think we need him, we need someone who will bring an all business attitude and get these guys playing correctly in their defense.

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        • At least I can be proud that we have such an amazing player like Steve Smith. I mean, that late TD is the best individual effort the league has seen this year.

          Damn he brings something else to the game. Too bad he has no running mate.

          Comment


          • What I see is a breakdown in our coaching, and it seems to show up mostly on the defensive side.

            The offense I kind of give a pass to since there's a new coordinator and a lack of talent at the receiver position outside of Smitty. Hopefully Jarrett isn't as far back in his development as you would think with having been inactive thus far on gameday with no better than Colbert & Carter are producing. The biggest problem I have on offense is that we can't seem to get our running game going, but with teams knowing they only have to focus on Smitty in the passing game....

            Special teams play has seemed to continually decline over the past few years. Especially our coverage. Though returns have been nothing to get excited about either.

            The defense is the side I'm the most annoyed with.

            Pep is supposedly among the best in the league at his position though he tends to disappear too much at times, Marshall is a nice nickelback, Beason looks like he will end up being an absolute beast on the field.

            What annoys me the most I think is how someone continues to ignore the safety position. I've just came to the conclusion that Fox totally undervalues it despite the fact that most of the top defenses in the league tend to have excellent safety play while we can't seem to manage so much as 'decent' play from ours.

            As Batman pointed out, it's hard to blitz when you don't have solid safeties, but my problem with us not blitzing is that our safeties are getting beat anyway. At least if we blitzed once in a while it might force the Qb to make a bad decision. I'm not saying we should blitz every down, but more than 3 or 4 times a game would be nice.

            I'm curious as to how much our coaching staff hurt Thomas Davis' development when they switched him around 800 times his rookie year.

            I'm curious why they brought Morgan back. I hope he stays healthy, but it's almost a given that he'll be done for the season before the season hits double digit weeks. I've also not see him be the difference maker he's always been thought to be. Then again, I'm also curious as to why he was responsible for covering Andre Johnson on that one touchdown (if you didn't read it, check Panthers.com, the Foxhole from yesterday has Fox "explaining", for lack of a better term, that Morgan was responsible for Johnson by design).

            I'm curious as to why they seem to have so much faith in Jenkins and Kemo when it seems obvious that we get more out of Damoine Lewis. Jenkins has flashes, but only one or two a game and he nowhere near deserved his Pro Bowl appearance last year.

            Gamble and Lucas I have mixed feelings on. One play they have nice tight coverage that Peyton Manning couldn't fit a ball to the receiver in, then the next they're hardly even in the picture when their man catches the ball. I've yet to decipher if that's a breakdown in the scheme or if those two are just that inconsistent. I'm leaning towards a breakdown in the scheme.

            It doesn't seem like the defense has any kind of chemistry as a unit either. Watch a Ravens game. What do you see when Ed Reed makes a big play? You see Ray Lewis over there bumping chests with him congratulating him. When was the last time you saw any of that emotion or intensity out of our defense?

            Comment


            • Gamble and Lucas are hard to decipher because we play so much zone. I don't think that fits Gamble well at all, but he's done better this year I guess since he's finally figured it out a bit. And btw, I saw the first TD pass to Andre Johnson again. What happened? Thomas Davis was sent on a blitz, Schaub picked it up right before he got drilled and Johnson walked into the endzone. Davis wouldn't have been able to break up the pass but Johnson strolled right through the field he vacated for the easy TD.

              Of course, if Deke Cooper didnt blow the coverage by running into Gamble, or Chris Harris knew how to take an angle and not be slow as ****, it wouldnt have mattered, but there it is.

              On the safety issue, I blame Fox mostly since it seems to be such an inherent part of his mantra and he's probably corrupted the front office into thinking it's not a problem but again, if Marty Hurney was a competent GM it wouldn't matter. If a good safety just fell into Fox's lap, he would play him. He'd still have to be a run first guy, but Michael Griffin is a solid player while being run first in philosophy. Look at the Chargers GM, he had CONTROL of that team so much that he just tossed aside Schottenheimer and hired Norv freakin' Turner in his place. I'm not saying it needs to be taken to that level, since that's probably the other extreme, but the GM needs to have some player control, and it seems ours has none

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              • The Offense HAS shown improvement. I didn't expect them to be able to be dominant right off the bat. Jake has looked worlds apart from last year, and we finally have a TE in King who is going to be pretty good. But our constant shuffling of the oline doesn't help us at all. Pick a freaking combination and go with it.

                I look at it this way. Contrasting the Bears secondary and the Ravens secondary there is an obvious gap in talent. Nobody from the Bears can touch Reed or McAlister. But they are just as effective in their scheme. I don't see that we have an actual scheme other than we spent big bucks on the front four and corners so we can completely neglect the safety position.

                Look at the Patriots, they have let guys like Ty Law go and replaced them with third and fourth round picks who are now budding stars. It is because they have a scheme and players come in and learn it and are able to be protected and play with in it.

                The Panthers from '03 wasn't as talented as this team right now is.

                We were starting:
                Reggie Howard
                Terry cousin for a while
                Ricky manning at the end
                Deion Grant
                Greg Favors

                Ricky Manning was good for that year, and Deion Grant was a little better than what he have now, comparable to Harris.

                I'm not ranting about how much more talented we are now, because we aren't a ton more talented. However, I would take that defense over this one any day, because that team played their defense and they played with passion and they played hard.

                All of their play or bad play is going to result in less trust in the defense they are playing. Nobody wants to get beat in coverage, but thats what happened to them all game long.

                Better question about the defense showing emotion, desire or even a little pride: When was the last time you saw us stop a team on 3rd and one? A goal line stand? Why don't I see guys hit the offense so hard it looks like they ran into a brick wall? I see this from the Patriots and Bears all the time. The Panthers hit him at the first down marker and get pushed back a yard or two.


                Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
                Gamble and Lucas are hard to decipher because we play so much zone. I don't think that fits Gamble well at all, but he's done better this year I guess since he's finally figured it out a bit. And btw, I saw the first TD pass to Andre Johnson again. What happened? Thomas Davis was sent on a blitz, Schaub picked it up right before he got drilled and Johnson walked into the endzone. Davis wouldn't have been able to break up the pass but Johnson strolled right through the field he vacated for the easy TD.

                Of course, if Deke Cooper didnt blow the coverage by running into Gamble, or Chris Harris knew how to take an angle and not be slow as ****, it wouldnt have mattered, but there it is.

                On the safety issue, I blame Fox mostly since it seems to be such an inherent part of his mantra and he's probably corrupted the front office into thinking it's not a problem but again, if Marty Hurney was a competent GM it wouldn't matter. If a good safety just fell into Fox's lap, he would play him. He'd still have to be a run first guy, but Michael Griffin is a solid player while being run first in philosophy. Look at the Chargers GM, he had CONTROL of that team so much that he just tossed aside Schottenheimer and hired Norv freakin' Turner in his place. I'm not saying it needs to be taken to that level, since that's probably the other extreme, but the GM needs to have some player control, and it seems ours has none
                Gamble hasn't let much up at all, though he could be used better. I think he may be becoming our best corner.

                The blitz is a double edged sword. It can burn you, I wouldn't be surprised if a larger percent of offensive big plays in the NFL come during a blitz. But I wouldn't be surprised if a larger percent of big defensive plays is during blitzes.

                As much as Fox wants to hides them, we put them on the field and we have to do something to not let them get picked apart because the QB has time to drop back and scan to his third option. But, we are pretty much awful at blitzes, I don't know why they can never work like they do for the Bears, they just always get picked up. I think we show our hands wayyy to early. I also think that our Dline does a bad job of opening holes. Blitzes are organized, but the Panthers just seem to rush the passer and send an extra guy in a random place. Usually that guy just gets caught with an oline man because the dline didn't occupy hem and tear open a lane to blitz through.
                Last edited by ShutDwn; 09-18-2007, 10:25 AM.

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                • Andre Johnson said this:
                  “My rookie year we played against Carolina,” Johnson explained. “We knew that if things are going good for them, they’re going to play. When things are not going good, they kind of like just lay back.

                  “Once we tied the game up, we knew that they were rolling. We didn’t feel like they could stop us.”
                  It is kind of hard to ignore since it is exactly right.

                  Fox's luster from the 03 season is fading pretty fast right now. If it weren't for Smitty in 05, I don't think we were .500

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                  • What paper was that interview in?

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                    • while everyone's made some good points, i think people tend to overlook the fact that we're 1-1, not 0-342. we could still go 11-5 or 10-6 and make the playoffs.

                      with that said, we do need to make some improvements. i saw two general problems from last week's game. the run d didn't look horrible, we lost on the pass d. I dont think the secondary played horribly, their problem was that they had all the time in the world to throw because our front four didnt generate any pass rush. the few times we did blitz, we forced schaub to scramble and throw the ball away (i.e. the grounding call). so while we dont have ideal safeties to blitz, it is still better than giving the opposing quarterback all the time in the world to throw.
                      i think our other problem was our run blocking. foster and deangelo had no holes to run through, which made us one-dimensional. i dont exactly have any idea how to solve this. hopefully its just taking a while to learn the ZBS, or maybe we will do better with Bridges, but i dont know. we ran well against st louis, but we also did last year. i just hope the offensive line can figure out how to open holes, it would do wonders for our offense.

                      Sig by DLS42

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FirstAndGoal View Post
                        while everyone's made some good points, i think people tend to overlook the fact that we're 1-1, not 0-342. we could still go 11-5 or 10-6 and make the playoffs.

                        with that said, we do need to make some improvements. i saw two general problems from last week's game. the run d didn't look horrible, we lost on the pass d. I dont think the secondary played horribly, their problem was that they had all the time in the world to throw because our front four didnt generate any pass rush. the few times we did blitz, we forced schaub to scramble and throw the ball away (i.e. the grounding call). so while we dont have ideal safeties to blitz, it is still better than giving the opposing quarterback all the time in the world to throw.
                        i think our other problem was our run blocking. foster and deangelo had no holes to run through, which made us one-dimensional. i dont exactly have any idea how to solve this. hopefully its just taking a while to learn the ZBS, or maybe we will do better with Bridges, but i dont know. we ran well against st louis, but we also did last year. i just hope the offensive line can figure out how to open holes, it would do wonders for our offense.

                        It doesn't matter what our record is. Offensive struggles are accepted because we know they are coming with a new offense. But the defense isn't looking any better than it did. Still absolutely no passion, no desire, no execution, nothing.

                        People say it is the players job to execute, but it is the coaches job to make them execute. It's the coaches job to get them ready, which they obviously weren't as we got killed be the same thing we always do: An ok TE and the naked bootleg. It was like we didn't know that the Texans coach was the OC for the Broncos.

                        Blitz the Safeties then, we can't have our guys in coverage that long. You have to be able to devise some kind of blitz.

                        I can't believe that we would be absolulety unable to get by with Chris Harris and Cooper while the Patriots started rookie Randal G-a-y, a WR playing corner, and I don't even know who was at the other safety position. They didn't back off. I don't see why we should continue to sit back and pretend that our front four is the best in the league and can get pressure against six blockers.

                        This was a reality check to Fox:

                        You aren't injured, you are healthy, and you don't have an excuse. Your front four is not elite, and neither are any of the other players.

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                        • You guys should read this. It is a perfect picture of what is going on.


                          http://www.heraldonline.com/247/story/123888.html

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                          • Heart and grit articles can suck it in my opinion. I'd love it if we could have Smith's at every position, but I'd be more than fine if we had guys like Holt who just go out there and do their damn job. The Pats get described as "businesslike" because they win, would they be emotionless if they were 1-1 right now? I will say this, if Fox loses the team then it's over, but I'm not convinced he has quite yet

                            you want a good article?

                            http://sports.aol.com/story/_a/panth...2?ecid=RSS0001

                            touches on what we've been talking about regarding the DLine lately. On a side note, this may be the best piece of journalism I have ever read on the Panthers. That says more about how awful the guys who cover them are than anything else, though

                            by the way, you do realize who this paragraph is mainly calling out, right?

                            Originally posted by David Eckstein's Mom
                            Over the past few years, they've leaned heavily in the draft toward accomplished players from major programs. Having guys from Southern Cal, Ohio State, Virginia Tech and Miami is a good thing, because that's where the talented kids go. But the flipside to having so many high-profile rookies is they've never had to scrap to be great -- they're maybe a little too cool for the proceedings.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
                              Heart and grit articles can suck it in my opinion. I'd love it if we could have Smith's at every position, but I'd be more than fine if we had guys like Holt who just go out there and do their damn job. The Pats get described as "businesslike" because they win, would they be emotionless if they were 1-1 right now? I will say this, if Fox loses the team then it's over, but I'm not convinced he has quite yet

                              you want a good article?

                              http://sports.aol.com/story/_a/panth...2?ecid=RSS0001

                              touches on what we've been talking about regarding the DLine lately. On a side note, this may be the best piece of journalism I have ever read on the Panthers. That says more about how awful the guys who cover them are than anything else, though

                              by the way, you do realize who this paragraph is mainly calling out, right?
                              The patriots are not just business like, if you think they are you haven't watched them at all this season of past seasons. They aren't all little Marvin Harrison's out there. They are all play with tenacity and right now a ton of anger. They have desire to win and desire to take the other team out of the game by the second quarter.

                              You're going to have to deal with heart and grit articles though, because this team has none. I guess you would rather have the Julius Peppers we have now, versus one with a Steve Smith, never say dies mentality? A Peppers that doesn't take half the season off and feels good about his production.

                              Torry Holt is a finesse WR. Offensive players typically aren't raw raw, pound your fist, on the field intensity guys. You will never find a SB caliber defense that was complacent and just business like. They all wanted to dominate the other teams ass break them.

                              I've read the AP article, doesn't state anything other than the obvious. Of course our production has gone down, we added a 300 pound punching bag who gets no pass rush and is constantly stuck in on passing downs. Rucker is getting older and got injured last year. Peppers is inconsistent, and Jenkins is not the pass rusher he used to be.

                              The article should also look at the point that in 02 and 03, we had our most stable Linebackers. In 02, we had so many sacks from non dlineman. Fields was a beast, even Corners had sacks. That is going to open it up quite a bit.

                              That article still plays into the point that we haven't gone about improving the team the right way. In 03 we had guys who knew the defense and played it so well. We had starters like Grant, Howard, Cousin, Manning Jr. and the other LB who's name escapes me. Cohesion of a unit will lead to better production for all parts of the defense. But instead of building a team or defense, we built a squad of 11 individuals that don't play with any cohesion. Then we go and do things like keep the Reggie Howards out of loyalty rather than keeping the Jarrett Bush's who play with determination.

                              I don't care if you don't like the articles about heart and grit. It doesn't really matter either, because we haven't played really really well on defense since 04, where this team got a reality check and started playing with passion.

                              Comment


                              • I'm not saying theyre meaningless, just that they're way outplayed. I dont want the Peppers we've seen so far, but I'd take Peppers when he's on any day of the week. And when he's on he's really not anymore of an intensity guy than he is now. Attitude matters a whole lot more in football than any other sport, but it still doesnt matter that much. Remember that my favorite guys on the team are Smith, Marshall, McClover, DeAngelo, etc so I'm not completely throwing it out the window. But if we play "fired up" it won't change the fact that our safeties are slower than our LBs, our LBs all have flaws and our DL is mediocre. If anything, it would make it worse since they'd play with one track minds (IE McClover and pass rush vs sucking at run containment)

                                And remember, I thought getting rid of Jarrett Bush was just as idiotic as anyone here. The one thing that really bothers me about Fox is loyalty, but you're the one preaching cohesiveness (which I dont particularily disagree with, but I wouldnt let it get in the way of having better players out there)

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