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  • Moore looked decent. Fox should be canned for starting Foster over Williams.
    Bluto- When the going gets tough the tough get going.

    Bluto I'm a zit get it. http://youtube.com/watch?v=qft0bdhl17c

    Cartman- Kyle get that sand out of your vagina.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by joercky View Post
      Moore looked decent. Fox should be canned for starting Foster over Williams.
      The problem with that is, what did Williams do other than one run? He got the same as Foster.

      Fosters average: 2.25
      Deangelo's without the big run: 2.3

      Yes, his big run is to his credit, but other than that he isn't clearly the better option. He did better than he did in this game against the Cardinals, but he isn't consistent in his big runs, or even his decent ones. So many times do I see him get stuffed for a loss or nothing. Foster gets stuffed too, but I see more 4 yard gains then Williams gets.

      Foster has more chance at being consistent, though you can't tell because of our offensive line.

      DeAngelo isn't consistent but can bust one play once in a while.

      Also, DeAngelo is not up to speed in pass protection or receiving. If you want to blame someone, blame Deangelo.

      Comment


      • shutdwn youre just trying to overjustify this

        DeAngelo gets these big runs because he has big play ability. Remember the reason everyone (especially footballoutsiders) used to hate on DeShaun is because he was like DeAngelo early in his career. He'd get stuffed at the line 4 plays out of 5, then break off a 30 yard run to barely save his ypc.

        Now DeShaun is the same player, without that big play ability. It's all gone. 1 20+ yard run all year. He runs with a little more power now, but not much. This is the guy that takes 3 carries on the 1 yard line to score a touchdown, right (and sometimes cant even do that)? He NEVER gets a 3rd and 1. Throw on top of that all of the fumbles. Why in the hell does anyone defend him? He sucks, worst RB in the league who gets over 100 carries a year by far

        If you dont think DeAngelo is what we need at RB, that's fine. He may not be, boom/bust is not a great gameplan because you bust more than you boom. But he is BY FAR a better option than Foster who is basically bust/bust/fumble.

        Go get a guy who gets you 3-4 yards a run when there's nothing there. Don't stick with Foster, who actually averages 3.5 YPC (worst in the league besides Warrick Dunn).

        Maybe the OLine is the problem, which I think is your bigger point. But it's not all the line. It's a good part Foster. I'd rather have Nick Goings as our #2 RB next season. And I think if you fix the Oline DeAngelo can get you positive yardage more often. Foster is a lost cause, though.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
          shutdwn youre just trying to overjustify this

          DeAngelo gets these big runs because he has big play ability. Remember the reason everyone (especially footballoutsiders) used to hate on DeShaun is because he was like DeAngelo early in his career. He'd get stuffed at the line 4 plays out of 5, then break off a 30 yard run to barely save his ypc.

          Now DeShaun is the same player, without that big play ability. It's all gone. 1 20+ yard run all year. He runs with a little more power now, but not much. This is the guy that takes 3 carries on the 1 yard line to score a touchdown, right (and sometimes cant even do that)? He NEVER gets a 3rd and 1. Throw on top of that all of the fumbles. Why in the hell does anyone defend him? He sucks, worst RB in the league who gets over 100 carries a year by far

          If you dont think DeAngelo is what we need at RB, that's fine. He may not be, boom/bust is not a great gameplan because you bust more than you boom. But he is BY FAR a better option than Foster who is basically bust/bust/fumble.

          Go get a guy who gets you 3-4 yards a run when there's nothing there. Don't stick with Foster, who actually averages 3.5 YPC (worst in the league besides Warrick Dunn).

          Maybe the OLine is the problem, which I think is your bigger point. But it's not all the line. It's a good part Foster. I'd rather have Nick Goings as our #2 RB next season. And I think if you fix the Oline DeAngelo can get you positive yardage more often. Foster is a lost cause, though.
          The offensive line gets no push, that really isn't debatable.

          Williams is a big play threat, but the problem is with him is that its that or nothing. A few games ago they were talking about how he is just now realizing that coaches want 4 yards.

          Foster has been pretty good against some defenses, like the Colts for instance. His ypc doesn't show it, but he did well in that game. A lot better than DeAngelo.

          Foster hasn't been spectacular, his fumbles have been bad. Funny because I pointed his ball safety in the first preseason game on another forum and people just said he has never had a problem.

          Williams has had a few moments. While those were great, they should not excuse his inconsistency. He has a 4.8 average this year, but anyone who has watched Williams knows that his average is closer to two if that.

          I wish Deangelo would be the guy, but honestly, he has been disappointing in his first two years. He has had some memorable plays like the one against Dallas or Philly last year. But he hasn't done much outside of that.


          Foster has done a lot to not deserve a starting spot, and DeAngelo hasn't done enough to really earn it. Unless people just want the chance of at least one big play per game and then the rest of the carries are little to no gain.

          If you want DeAngelo to be the guy, we need a very good offensive line.

          Comment


          • The problem with that is, what did Williams do other than one run? He got the same as Foster.

            Fosters average: 2.25
            Deangelo's without the big run: 2.3

            Yes, his big run is to his credit, but other than that he isn't clearly the better option. He did better than he did in this game against the Cardinals, but he isn't consistent in his big runs, or even his decent ones. So many times do I see him get stuffed for a loss or nothing. Foster gets stuffed too, but I see more 4 yard gains then Williams gets.

            Foster has more chance at being consistent, though you can't tell because of our offensive line.

            DeAngelo isn't consistent but can bust one play once in a while.

            Also, DeAngelo is not up to speed in pass protection or receiving. If you want to blame someone, blame Deangelo.
            Agreed DeAngelo in that sense is similar to Willie Parker. The Panthers suffer from not being able to convert third downs and turnovers the same things we have been saying for years. Foster has like 7-8 fumbles while DeAngelo has 1. If Foster is coughing up the ball he shouldn't be playing. You know what you get w/ Foster but not Williams. He is a bonus baby lets see if he can play. Ideally though Williams will be paired up with somebody like Mike "The Burner" Turner in a 2 back system.
            Bluto- When the going gets tough the tough get going.

            Bluto I'm a zit get it. http://youtube.com/watch?v=qft0bdhl17c

            Cartman- Kyle get that sand out of your vagina.

            Comment


            • i dont think you guys understand

              deangleo may be a net zero because his negative yardage runs offset his big plays but foster SUCKS

              it's like Colbert vs Carter. Sure, Carter isn't that great but Colbert shouldnt be on an NFL roster

              you remember foster getting 4 yards more "consistently" because that's his big plays. And you're right, he does have big games...against teams with terrible run defenses like the Rams, Giants and Falcons. Everyone else, he is completely worthless.

              look here, it tries to measure overall effect without giving extra weight to 80 yard runs:

              http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb.php

              Foster is the second to last ranked RB with more than 75 carries. Williams isn't great, but he's a net positive.

              The thing you're making a big deal out of is called success rate. And you're right, Foster is more consistent at getting positive yards. But he's still not good. He's ranked 36 with a 43% rate while Williams is 47 with a 39% rate (and those numbers will probably change after this week...notice how Foster played a crappy game when he only got 4 carries too? hmmm).

              The point is, neither is any good at what you want. And Williams is better at big plays. The way to go is to ditch Foster and get another RB to go with Williams

              Also I dont understand the DeAngelo is bad at pass pro criticism. He's not Clinton Portis but I haven't noticed him as a liability out there. Foster is better in that area right now, I agree, which is why he should be the 3rd down back and Williams the 1st/2nd until we ditch him

              Comment


              • Like I said D-Will and da Burner Turner would make a killer combo, Williams is a home run threat while Turner can just run people over.
                Bluto- When the going gets tough the tough get going.

                Bluto I'm a zit get it. http://youtube.com/watch?v=qft0bdhl17c

                Cartman- Kyle get that sand out of your vagina.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
                  i dont think you guys understand

                  deangleo may be a net zero because his negative yardage runs offset his big plays but foster SUCKS

                  it's like Colbert vs Carter. Sure, Carter isn't that great but Colbert shouldnt be on an NFL roster

                  you remember foster getting 4 yards more "consistently" because that's his big plays. And you're right, he does have big games...against teams with terrible run defenses like the Rams, Giants and Falcons. Everyone else, he is completely worthless.

                  look here, it tries to measure overall effect without giving extra weight to 80 yard runs:

                  http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb.php

                  Foster is the second to last ranked RB with more than 75 carries. Williams isn't great, but he's a net positive.

                  The thing you're making a big deal out of is called success rate. And you're right, Foster is more consistent at getting positive yards. But he's still not good. He's ranked 36 with a 43% rate while Williams is 47 with a 39% rate (and those numbers will probably change after this week...notice how Foster played a crappy game when he only got 4 carries too? hmmm).

                  The point is, neither is any good at what you want. And Williams is better at big plays. The way to go is to ditch Foster and get another RB to go with Williams

                  Also I dont understand the DeAngelo is bad at pass pro criticism. He's not Clinton Portis but I haven't noticed him as a liability out there. Foster is better in that area right now, I agree, which is why he should be the 3rd down back and Williams the 1st/2nd until we ditch him
                  Against the 49ers, the play-by-play announcer asked why Williams isn't getting more carries and playing more. I forget who the color commentator was, but he said, Williams is not all the way there in pass protection or running more consistently.

                  Foster is not trash, he is a decent starter. His offensive line isn't much to brag about they aren't road graders, and they are in a new scheme. Add in the fact that nobody is scared of the passing game and you have a recipe for a very low average. However, once in a while a defense will over pursue and DeAngelo has the ability to cut it back. Foster has had some good games against good defenses as well, such as Green Bay and Jacksonville. He also played well against the colts for the a while before we just gave in.

                  Both players have much better seasons if Jake stays healthy. Deangelo is the better playmaker, and Foster is decent at getting an ok or moderate gain when he has blocking.

                  I think at this point we are both are just going to agree to disagree though..

                  On another subject, I really like Matt Moore. I actually like him better than any other prospect out right now. Best of all, Steve likes him.

                  Comment


                  • pbp announcers constantly spew nonsense and I think, at best, that commentator was fed the "not up to speed" line by the Panthers coaching staff, which is a questionable source at best. i do agree he's not great in the pass pro area but that's not a reason to keep him off the field (you can just roll him out to open up an option in the flat) and i don't agree that he's hurts you by being out there on passing downs (it's not like other teams go out of their way to attack him when they see him out there...like they do to deshaun's arms when he's running with the ball)

                    foster is trash, i cant see how you can argue otherwise. he's never been an impact player and this is the first year he has a shot at 1000 yards, and it's arguably been his worst yet. Is he worthwhile to keep around as a back up? Sure, but not at the 5 million pricetag we gave him

                    conversely, ive liked moore since we picked him up. I remember Jaws liked him coming out and a lot of Cowboy fans like what they saw of him in preseason. He has that "IT" factor you look for in QBs and I dont see any problems physically that limit him. Seems he fell through the cracks in the draft because he only played 2 years at Oregon State. Good to know we have a back up we can count on for once, since I still don't think Jake will be ready for Week 1 next year

                    Comment


                    • It wouldn't surprise me if his pass blocking wasn't great, but if that's the case then the staff only have themselves to blame. We used to use the tight end more than anyone else to block but they got rid of everyone and had to bring in Fauria.

                      Comment


                      • I hope Jake can come back for next year, that would be the best scenario. I like Moore, but Jake is still our best option if he is available. Moore has plenty of time ahead of him if he keeps his play up.

                        Comment


                        • 3.5 YPC is a trash number. Moreover, Foster's gotten worse as the season has worn on. Stick a fork in him.

                          I expect the team will pick up a veteran on a one year contract to back up Delhomme and spot start if necessary.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jdb1972 View Post
                            3.5 YPC is a trash number. Moreover, Foster's gotten worse as the season has worn on. Stick a fork in him.

                            I expect the team will pick up a veteran on a one year contract to back up Delhomme and spot start if necessary.
                            YPC is a trash statistic because Williams isn't close to averaging four yards a carry and everyone knows it.

                            I guess you can use it if you want to claim it points out big play ability. But plays over 20+ do that much better. The yards per carry statistic is stupid and rarely accurate the median would be much better. Foster's may be almost there, but DeAngelo's isn't.

                            Comment


                            • Er... YPC is an average by definition.

                              Yes, in Williams' case, it is padded by a few long runs. However, that was also the case with Foster prior to his injury a couple of years ago. Now, Foster just lacks the big runs. Lots of 2 yard or less runs with a few big plays is better than lots of 2 yard runs without the big plays.

                              I think Williams makes a fine scat/3rd down back, just as Foster did back before he was hurt. Neither is the ultimate solution at RB for the Panthers, though.

                              Incidentally, footballoutsiders.com came up with a stat a few years back that weighted the long runs less. IIRC, they also did weighting by down and distance. Foster was rated one of the worst backs in the NFL by that stat - and that was before he began his decline of the past couple of seasons.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jdb1972 View Post
                                Er... YPC is an average by definition.

                                Yes, in Williams' case, it is padded by a few long runs. However, that was also the case with Foster prior to his injury a couple of years ago. Now, Foster just lacks the big runs. Lots of 2 yard or less runs with a few big plays is better than lots of 2 yard runs without the big plays.

                                I think Williams makes a fine scat/3rd down back, just as Foster did back before he was hurt. Neither is the ultimate solution at RB for the Panthers, though.

                                Incidentally, footballoutsiders.com came up with a stat a few years back that weighted the long runs less. IIRC, they also did weighting by down and distance. Foster was rated one of the worst backs in the NFL by that stat - and that was before he began his decline of the past couple of seasons.
                                I'm not stupid, I know that YPC is the average. But I'm saying that it is an awful statistic when you are trying to describe a player. DeAngelo supposedly had a YPC of six yards a carry against Dallas. SIX! Now, I don't know if you watched the game, but I didn't see those carries. Take away that 39 yard run and your looking at a 2.3 YPC. That is why I don't trust that statistic, one run throws everything off, the median is much better than the mode.

                                Foster isn't that bad, he is playing with an offensive line that is just frustrating, and David Carr, a QB that defenses want to throw the ball. He isn't obviously good enough to be like Frank Gore and run over people regardless of QB play. Though he did have some big guys up front.

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