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  • I'm not disagreeing with you about Williams, as I noted above. The difference is that Williams is Foster with big plays (or Foster from a couple of years ago).

    Blaming it on the line is irrelevant; they both play behind the same line. Blaming it on Carr is likeise; he's played one game since week 9, and they both have the same issue re: QB.

    In any case, Foster will be gone next year, and Williams isn't an every down back. We'll have to look elsewhere for a back to use on 1st and 2nd down.


    • Moore looks pretty good today so far, one pick though.

      And man, Rosario is looking good in the last few weeks. Some really nice catches in the last few games and he looks like he can run pretty well. A much better mid range threat than King who is more of a short 5-7 yards guy.


      • Originally posted by ShutDwn View Post
        I'm not stupid, I know that YPC is the average. But I'm saying that it is an awful statistic when you are trying to describe a player. DeAngelo supposedly had a YPC of six yards a carry against Dallas. SIX! Now, I don't know if you watched the game, but I didn't see those carries. Take away that 39 yard run and your looking at a 2.3 YPC. That is why I don't trust that statistic, one run throws everything off, the median is much better than the mode.

        Foster isn't that bad, he is playing with an offensive line that is just frustrating, and David Carr, a QB that defenses want to throw the ball. He isn't obviously good enough to be like Frank Gore and run over people regardless of QB play. Though he did have some big guys up front.
        the point isnt that deangelo is good (I agree that his YPC makes him look much better than he really is), it's that foster sucks no matter which way you cut it. like jdb said, Foster is still one of the worst RBs in the NFL by metrics that value consistently picking up 4 yards on 1st down, 1 yard on 3rd and 1, etc more than getting one big run every other game. I dont see how thats surprising because DeShaun has never been a guy who gets you positive yards every run, he's the same type of runner as DeAngelo...he's just worse at it

        anyway I couldnt watch the game today because I'm out of town and was travelling for part of it but the results look encouraging again. Moore with another decent game. I'm not too upset with the draft position dropping with the win because the talent from 5-15 is usually not a big dropoff. Once you get past the ELITE prospects the ridiculous contracts for unproven players offset the supposed lesser talent until you get really far down in the 1st round IMO


        • There is no franchise caliber player in this draft to me, McFadden maybe. I like Moore and I see him being better than any of the other guys, he won't have the price tag or the attitude that big name guys tend to have.

          Rosario has been a "pleasant surprise" for Fox, that is what the commentators said anyway. He has made an athletic catch in the last three games and he can move really well for a guy his size. He seems to have a connection with Moore, probably from their third team reps.

          Robinson fumbled, but he had a huge return. He has done enough lately to make be believe he was worth the pick now, especially with a 40 yard return last week and than a 60 this week. He was indecisive when he started, but has gotten a lot better. Every rookie return man is going to get compared to Hester, and Hester is phenomenal, but like any return man, he is not a big threat without good blocking. If we get Robinson better blocking he will play even better.

          Kalil played pretty well for a change. The Bucs have a good interior and he did well except for a snap.

          Our top needs have got to be these:

          PASS RUSH - Our secondary is amazing for doing as well as they did sometimes with the lack of pressure. Peppers needs to get his ass in gear and learn some pass rush moves and be a lot more consistent.

          Second option at receiver - We need someone to come in somehow. I don't have enough faith in anyone on the roster to just let it go. Carter is the only one worth putting any stock in. Colbert is gone, Jarrett doesn't deserve it, and Robinson hasn't played enough.

          It is amazing to say that Safety isn't our biggest flaw. Cooper did a serviceable job, and Harris was a play maker. However, we could really use a kid who has the talent to play center field.

          Left Tackle may be our best position to draft, maybe a defensive end.


          • here's my preliminary end of season rundown. im going to assume the coaching staff stays mostly intact:

            QB - For once, I feel ok here depth wise. The one thing that concerns me is that I'm not so sure Delhomme will be 100% (or even 70%) Week 1 next season. For this reason I think we need to bring in a journeyman type vet who fits the system to compete with Basanez. I like Baz's intangibles, but he doesnt really strike me as a guy with the physical skills to last as a starting QB. Moore DOES have both traits which is why I'm fine with him all but pencilled in for a spot. So Delhomme/Moore/Baz/Chris Redman-type.

            RB - We've gone through this already so I'll keep it short. I'm fine with the two back system. I'm not fine with the two backs that compose it. Their run styles are too similar and Foster's attempt to transition into a Stephen Davis-type has been a failure. Keep DeAngelo as the big play threat and look to fill the other spot with a guy who's really good at falling forward for 3 yards. I dont care who gets more carries between the two of them.

            FB - I'm fine with Hoover for another year but it'd be nice to look for a replacement. I think Davidson would prefer to feature the FB less and 2 TE, H-backs, etc more with his offense, so it's also fine not to do anything here.

            TE - King is a good option for short passes. Rosario seems to have potential in the intermediate game and the rapport with Moore doesnt hurt. I don't think either is Antonio Gates, but by this time next year we should be good enough at this position that mock drafts will finally stop giving us TEs in the first two rounds. Ironically, we're a little weak in the blocking department here. Well, Fauria is adequate there, but he's old. One thing I'll add on Rosario - I didn't like the pick initially but early in ST you could tell he was a guy we took to fit the system. This is what makes the Patriots great, finding guys that fill the holes perfectly for them. I am pro-BPA because I dont think our organization is smart enough to pick for our system, but if they do it more in the future, I'm all for it.

            WR - Back to Steve and the scrubs again. Colbert is gone and I wouldnt care too much if Carter goes too. I do think Carter is worth keeping...but only as a #3/4. Too early to call Jarrett a bust, but early returns are not looking good. FWIW, I remember thinking from Ryne's draft videos and preseason action that he'd be a better slot WR than returner. He showed some potential in both areas late in the year after being dangerously close to the waiver wire early. I take those four and add either a mid round WR or a vet (slim pickings though...Andre Davis? Justin Gage? I'm not buying the Bryant Johnson hype)

            OL - Ugh. Gross getting re-signed is almost a certainty so I'm just going to assume it happens. Beyond that, the rest of the line is up in the air IMO. Wahle is over the hill and expensive. Wharton is FA. Kalil looked like a rookie. Hartwig is injury prone and replaceable. Bridges is not a RG.

            I'd cut Wahle and demote Bridges to back up tackle. Wharton can come back if he's relatively cheap and wants to move back to guard. I dont like Hartwig but I've read cutting him isn't financially beneficial until next offseason so he gets to stay. Pray that Kalil bulks up in the offseason. Get a LT in the draft and see if bringing in a road grader at guard is possible. The tackle prospect I like most so far (after Jake Long, who isnt possible) is Jeff Otah. Unfortunately, he's kind of raw and not really a fit for the ZBS. I'll take a more in depth look at guys who fit our scheme better. I just really hope we don't take Sam Baker. Scott's scouting report makes it sound like his ceiling is Gross and the whole USC connection doesn't turn me on him either. Long story short - I'd like a line (from LT to RT) of Draft Pick/New Guy or Wharton/Kalil/Hartwig or New Guy/Gross. I know Wahle will never get cut, though

            DE - I don't like it, but we need to extend Peppers this offseason. We can't ride his $16M or whatever it is cap figure into next year without crippling our payroll. Also, while Peppers is saying this year doesn't hurt his contract demands...he's wrong...AND it certainly doesn't increase them. I think at worst we're looking at giving him Freeney's contract.

            I'm off the McClover bandwagon, he's basically worthless in run D and I think he may hurt us by being out there with the way he runs himself out of plays. Charles Johnson is almost the opposite, good in run D...hasn't shown much of a pass rush. An interesting pick at 13 may be Calais Campbell but I'm not a fan. We don't need another guy like Peppers who's an athletic freak but only shows up to play X numbers of games a year. What we really need is a guy to replace what Rucker was in his prime - a good pass rusher, very good run supporter who comes to play every game. Johnson MAY be that guy but if we look elsewhere I wouldn't object. Remember, we need an Al Wallace type (top tier back up) here, too

            DT - Kemoeatu has come on of late and the LBs have looked good this year, so he survives cuts this year. Jenkins is back on track, though I really wish someone would slap those dumbass offsides out of him. Also, keeping one of Damione Lewis or Kindal Moorehead should be a priority. And even if we keep all 4 of these guys we should look to improve here.

            LB - Fine as is IMO. If we see someone we really like in the later rounds of the draft for WLB/ST depth, pull the trigger. Otherwise, leave this unit alone.

            CB - Key stat here (also applies to LB): 12th ranked total defense, 32nd ranked in sacks. Gamble was spectacular before he got injured, Lucas is still good and Marshall is Marshall. Just imagine how much better these guys would look if we had any pass rush whatsoever.

            S - Lock Chris Harris up!! He basically replaces Mike Minter as not only a good contributor in the secondary but a leader in the clubhouse (reading through the lines of clubhouse quotes). Deke can stay, but I don't want him starting next year. Quinton Teal seems like nice depth too. Screw Marquand Manuel. We were warned about his suckiness by Packers fans just like we were warned about David Carr from Texan fans.

            K/P - Kasay can still kick FGs but his kickoffs killed us this year. Either Baker needs to takeover KO duties or we need a kickoff specialist. I've read we brought in a guy named Lloyd who did that, and did it well, vs the Bucs today. Good. And I'll be sad if Kasay gets beat out by Lloyd or a new kicker next year, but objectively it might be time to move on.

            Rest of ST - We brought in some guys who started making plays at the end of the year. Donte Curry, Brandon Jamison and Adam Seward returned from injury. Ryne also started getting longer returns as this year went on. Coincidence? I think not. I still believe firing Crossman would be prudent, but those guys need to be retained for next year

            My draft needs listed in order of importance: OT, DE, FS, WR, DT, RB
            Last edited by SchizophrenicBatman; 12-31-2007, 01:08 AM.


            • I'd also like to point out that Diggs played pretty well coming down the stretch. He was making plays just like Davis and Beason.

              I think your order of need is right, it also fits into amount of impact that it would make as well as availability. Receiver rarely makes instant impact, and FS is not deep at all.

              We need someone who will get to the QB with some god damn consistency.

              Kenny Phillips -S
              Sedrick Ellis- DT
              Ryan Clady -OT
              Jeff Otah- OT
              Derrick Harvey- DE
              Vernon Gholston- DE

              And there is always Limas Sweed and Malcom Kelly. But I have mixed feelings on first round receivers. Could offer a lot of help, or a lot of disappointment. I really like Harvey and Gholston a lot on that list, Calias Campbell is out there too, but he seems like another Peppers, he didn't do much this past year.
              Last edited by ShutDwn; 12-31-2007, 10:01 AM.


              • Well the intriguing thing about Campbell is that he has 1st overall pick talent and it might be possible to steal him at 13. But yea, like we've both said, the problem is that he hasn't lived up to his hype and given our situation on the DLine we really can't take a risk like that

                Harvey is a guy I haven't thought about much lately. He completely destroyed Ohio State in the NC last year. I wouldn't mind him at all

                I've liked Kenny Phillips for a long time but he never really took that next step to be an elite safety prospect. I wonder where he would get picked in a year with a few more good prospects at his position (it's pretty barren after him) but 13 sounds about right for him value-wise the way this draft is set up. Remember, Beason didn't have a lot of hype around him either out of Miami because the team has fallen on tough times of late...

                If we take a WR in the draft next year it needs to be more of a guy who is closer to his ceiling than a guy who runs a 4.3 and gets 1st round hype (Chad Jackson from a couple years back). Of course, the team probably thought that's what they were getting in Jarrett. The prospects I like here are Steve Johnson, Davone Bess types. Good route runners with solid hands. Keary was a guy like this before his hands turned to brick. And while his overall career has been a bust, remember he was able to come in and play as a rookie.

                I'm also quietly on the Jordy Nelson bandwagon thats making rounds on this board. I dont think he's a 1st rounder but I dont see why he wouldnt be worth a 3rd or 4th. He has good hands, good size, can run away from DBs and had the production this year. His routes don't look all that sharp, he might not be a guy who contributes immediately


                • What do u guys think about Rex Ryan as our D-Coordinator, now that he does not have a job?


                  • James Hardy is a good route runner, he is huge and has amazing hands despite what he did in the Insight bowl. Adarius Bowman is a great blocker, but it is really hard to judge receivers who are in an option offense and so much of their separation is a product of the play action.


                    • Originally posted by ericcartman View Post
                      What do u guys think about Rex Ryan as our D-Coordinator, now that he does not have a job?
                      id love Ryan as our DC but are we sure he got canned? ive heard mixed reports on what happened to the better assistants in balt

                      ive been intrigued with bowman for a while, but key on intrigued. hard to go wrong with guys who are excellent blockers, however

                      I really think WR might be better fit in FA for us, though. They wont give up on Jarrett already and Robinson seems like he can play on offense a little bit at least. Gotta bring in a guy we can count on instead of more question marks


                      • ESPN reported that Ryan lost his job. But he won't be brought in, because Fox is a defensive guy and Ryan would want control.


                        • Originally posted by ShutDwn View Post
                          ESPN reported that Ryan lost his job. But he won't be brought in, because Fox is a defensive guy and Ryan would want control.
                          ..not even when John's job is also on the line??????

                          I've also heard somewhere that Rex Ryan has aspirations of becoming a HC. Carolina might be a good bet for him within the next couple of years.

                          Why is the ST coach still with Carolina?


                          • If Ryan doesn't get a HC job somewhere, you have to think he'll wind up in Miami.

                            I'd love for the Panthers to take a shot at him, but Ryan's still more of a 3-4 guy, he would want more control than Fox would be likely to give up, and the Fox model is to promote from within whenever possible. If Trgo walks, I think Tim Lewis will move up.


                            • I'd love to get RYan, but is there any reason to think he would come to Carolina? I haven't heard anything linking him and the Panthers. But it would be nice.
                              Trgovac needs to go. Our D hasnt played up to its potential since Del Rio left and Trgovac has been over his head the whole time. We shouldnt have promoted from within in the first place. I haven't heard much about his job being on the line, though.

                              Sig by DLS42


                              • I don't know why Trgo gets a pass for a defense that had the least amount of sacks in the league. I don't think it is a coincidence that when we bring in a new secondary coach, our secondary becomes our strong point and played like allstars behind that pass rush.

                                I just don't understand how you keep the guy who's defense is last in sacks when you have Julius Peppers and Kris Jenkins. I know that our front four has been over rated, but still, the amount of money and credentials to those names is ridiculous.



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