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3-4 vs. 4-3 - After 3 Yrs

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  • #16
    Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
    +rep. Thanks for the response. You hit everything right on the head.
    no problem bro. im just giving my honest assessment of the situation.

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    • #17
      As for KingJames and the "Roy Williams is better in a 4-3" statement, that is completely false. On Talkin' Cowboys last season, Terence Newman was the guest on one of the shows, and Mickey asked him if the 3-4 is any different than a 4-3 for the secondary. And he said not at all. That is the best cover CB in the game telling you it isn't any different. Roy just got fat, and sucks because of it. Hopefully Mr. 38, as I will call him now, gets his ASS in gear.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
        The most important pieces to a 3-4 scheme are NT, DE, OLB, SS, and CB in that order.

        New England has elite players at every one of those positions, San Diego is pretty close as well...Then in our scheme we dont have any elite players on the d line, or a SS, and we are limited at db, so its not a surprise to see the different results with both units...Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, those guys make a difference on their defense that we dont have now, Shaun Rogers is the "size" to do it, whether or not he gets in gear is one thing but a winning environment has shown it works for alot of disgruntled players...


        We have guys I like on the ends, but giving them a force in the middle is going to make everyone else that much better...and BBD good call on the issue with not having burnett in base defenses, having to stay bigger at ILB without a huge NT, makes alot of sense now...





        Originally posted by Scott Wright
        I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
          New England has elite players at every one of those positions, San Diego is pretty close as well...Then in our scheme we dont have any elite players on the d line, or a SS, and we are limited at db, so its not a surprise to see the different results with both units...Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, those guys make a difference on their defense that we dont have now, Shaun Rogers is the "size" to do it, whether or not he gets in gear is one thing but a winning environment has shown it works for alot of disgruntled players...


          We have guys I like on the ends, but giving them a force in the middle is going to make everyone else that much better...and BBD good call on the issue with not having burnett in base defenses, having to stay bigger at ILB without a huge NT, makes alot of sense now...
          How can you say the Chargers and pats have elite SS? Rodney harrison is a dirty joke of a player, and I don't even know who the chargers SS is. The pats have samuel, chargers have cromartie, and we have newman. Both of their 2nd CBs and FS suck. We have Hamlin.

          We are a NCB and true NT away. That's all.

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          • #20
            Our needs... RB, LT, LG, WR, DE, NT, ILB, CB, NB, FS, SS.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Achilles33 View Post
              How can you say the Chargers and pats have elite SS? Rodney harrison is a dirty joke of a player, and I don't even know who the chargers SS is. The pats have samuel, chargers have cromartie, and we have newman. Both of their 2nd CBs and FS suck. We have Hamlin.

              We are a NCB and true NT away. That's all.
              I didnt say the chargers had an elite SS, relax, you get so offensive as soon as something is said about Dallas thats not relatively close to "were the most super talented team in a gazillion years"

              You can argue Harrison all you want, but at the age that he's at, still coming up with cluth interceptions(which his playoff game streak of picks is at 8 or so and counting)...and on their line they have 2 elite lineman, makes a huge difference...





              Originally posted by Scott Wright
              I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
                I didnt say the chargers had an elite SS, relax, you get so offensive as soon as something is said about Dallas thats not relatively close to "were the most super talented team in a gazillion years"

                You can argue Harrison all you want, but at the age that he's at, still coming up with cluth interceptions(which his playoff game streak of picks is at 8 or so and counting)...and on their line they have 2 elite lineman, makes a huge difference...
                I'd even put Ty Warren as an elite lineman. So make that 3.

                I consider Canty elite. If anyone wants to sue me, sue me. He's a badass. I put him on par with Warren.. perhaps even slightly better due to age.

                Harrison is a intelligent maniac. Roy isn't even as close to as smart or as instinctive as him.

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                • #23
                  Canty is a beast. We need a true NT, bottome line. Move ratliff back to DE, and we have a badass D-Line.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Achilles33 View Post
                    Canty is a beast. We need a true NT, bottome line. Move ratliff back to DE, and we have a badass D-Line.
                    Ratliff and Canty at DE with Bowen and Hatcher as back-ups. I like that as our DE's are concerned. Then a beat at NT with Tank as a back-up. I like this line-up.

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                    • #25
                      I think were fine at DE as well, Canty has showed me he can be dominant, he just needs someone in the middle to take the pressure off, Ratliff is an athlete out there as well, I love both those guys at end over Spears...

                      But we still have major upgrades in the secondary because for now everyone picks on our #3 corner and SS, wherever they are at the ball is thrown, until we upgrade Im pretty sure teams still throw right into Roy's coverage





                      Originally posted by Scott Wright
                      I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yeah, that's why I like Shaun Rogers... Kills 2 birds with 1 stone. NT and DE needs satisfied.

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                        • #27
                          I tend to agree with most of what BBD said in regards to the 3-4, but I still think Burnett is an upgrade over Akin.

                          I'm sure BBD doesn't get to see every boys game, and when he does, I'm sure he isn't watching Akin.

                          The dude just cant shed blocks. KB can. I don't know, I would give up a little size for KB's athleticism. I hope we try it this year.

                          Ayodele, 28, is listed at 6-2, 250
                          Burnett, 25, is listed at 6-3, 240

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Burns336 View Post
                            I tend to agree with most of what BBD said in regards to the 3-4, but I still think Burnett is an upgrade over Akin.

                            I'm sure BBD doesn't get to see every boys game, and when he does, I'm sure he isn't watching Akin.

                            The dude just cant shed blocks. KB can. I don't know, I would give up a little size for KB's athleticism. I hope we try it this year.

                            Ayodele, 28, is listed at 6-2, 250
                            Burnett, 25, is listed at 6-3, 240
                            I always thought Ayodele was an odd choice for 2-4 ILB. He seems to fit better in a 4-3 scheme. He's not a bad player, but he's a JAG.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Achilles33 View Post
                              As for KingJames and the "Roy Williams is better in a 4-3" statement, that is completely false. On Talkin' Cowboys last season, Terence Newman was the guest on one of the shows, and Mickey asked him if the 3-4 is any different than a 4-3 for the secondary. And he said not at all. That is the best cover CB in the game telling you it isn't any different. Roy just got fat, and sucks because of it. Hopefully Mr. 38, as I will call him now, gets his ASS in gear.

                              1) I think Big Blue would possibly disagree and gave a diagnostic on how SS in a 4-3 is different than 3-4. He is correct. What Newman said ... whatever ... not sure he even said that.

                              2) Just the fact the 3-4 LB are so much bigger makes them more limited in coverage than the 4-3 equivalent. Light = better coverage as you so eloquently called Roy fat in this context.

                              3) So, if your LB cover better then your overall team covers better which means Roy is less a priority in coverage. This partially explains Sander D-MVP -- that Indy crew covers pretty damn good for LB -- as do most Tampa II LBers.

                              But whatever, it is fairly clear to me that true 3-4 lend itself to different coverage and schemes than a 4-3. To argue their is no integration between Front 7 and Back 4 when designing schemes or picking personnel is odd.

                              Roy Williams in Indy or Tampa slides right into a SS. Trade him to Denver for Javon Walker and he takes over for Lynch. Denver plays lots of man, their LB are fast and can cover some, Roy can play closer to the LOS to help the run D without taking away from the scheme. In this scheme, Roy at the LOS turns a 4-3-4 into a 4-4-3 but the OLB can run and cover space if a passing play develops.

                              But frankly, playing Roy Williams closer to the LOS in a 3-4 makes no sense. You need a 3-4 SS to play DB moreso than run support. Roy in a 3-4 personnel package plays the scheme closer to 3-5-3. And who needs a 3-5-3 in a pass happy NFL if the other 3-4 LBs can not run as well.

                              The 3 lightest LB in a 3-4 just don't run or cover as well as the 3 LB in a 4-3 but they stop the run better. This is why SS in a 3-4 needs better coverage skills moreso and a SS in a 4-3 needs to be more a hybrid and can play LB-lite as needed.

                              I hate this discussion and I am sorry for stating the obvious. Regardless, Roy Williams for Javon Walker is not crazy if you guys think this is a good idea.... at least in theory -- no clue on contracts. Helps both teams it seems. But Williams can play in the right scheme IMHO.

                              OT, anyone notice the Giants in 1990 beat the Bills playing a 2-4 and blitzing up the middle alot to prevent Kelly from moving around in the pocket? Interesting for this weekend if you ask me. Less beef and pressure in the middle.....
                              Last edited by kingjames; 01-31-2008, 02:05 PM.

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                              • #30
                                since i got ripped for suggesting moving roy to olb in the 3-4 then i say we switch back to the 4-3 and move roy to olb and draft reggie smith to replace him at safety move d ware back to end and get rid of b carp and akin! or not lol just messing around but it would be funny. roy can't cover speedy recievers and hes a good run stopper and blitzer and hes around 230-235 perfect olb for the 4-3 and his sub 4.5 forty would make him a speedy backer!
                                don't ream me plz its just in retrospect

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