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  • Originally posted by Macarthur View Post
    Well, it's hard for us to have that debate because I don't care how well things are designed, if you have a kid that simply can't play (Costa), the design won't matter for sqat. It's kind of a chicken and egg.

    I do agree that Callahan should be a great help to Jason.
    Not really looking to have a debate there. NO question our interior OL is weak and needs improvement. The degree on that improvement is where we may have some disagreement.

    Knowing how far along Arkin is would help. Was 1 redshirt year long enough for him to catch on and beef up? Can he start next season? I liked what I saw of him in the preseason. If Garrett thought Nagy could start, I hope Arkin is close.

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    • Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
      Knowing how far along Arkin is would help. Was 1 redshirt year long enough for him to catch on and beef up? Can he start next season? I liked what I saw of him in the preseason. If Garrett thought Nagy could start, I hope Arkin is close.
      True. I would like to think that between Arkin, Nagy & Kowalski one of those guys would be ready to hold down one of those guard spots.
      In war, you win or lose, live or die - and the difference is just an eyelash.


      -Douglas MacArthur

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      • All this talk about Spencer staying for nearly 9 mill makes me want to choke a *****.

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        • Originally posted by Paul View Post
          All this talk about Spencer staying for nearly 9 mill makes me want to choke a *****.
          AAAAAAAAMEN! That would be both typical for this franchise and a massive mistake. For all the talk of clearing up $20M in cap space, it seems pretty idiotic to me that this team would use almost half of it on Spencer. BARF.

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          • Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
            Not really looking to have a debate there. NO question our interior OL is weak and needs improvement. The degree on that improvement is where we may have some disagreement.

            Knowing how far along Arkin is would help. Was 1 redshirt year long enough for him to catch on and beef up? Can he start next season? I liked what I saw of him in the preseason. If Garrett thought Nagy could start, I hope Arkin is close.
            I don't get what you mean though. You are saying average improvement is all we need on the interior OL... that is exactly what we did with Holland, Dockery, etc. and it obviously didn't work.

            It's time to bite the bullet and get one elite interior OL. Whether it's Nicks or a top 2 round pick in the draft, we need one. My flavor of the month right now is a trade down for Konz while picking up an extra third. It seems like a win on all fronts. Hopefully arkin is the future at one guard spot, but center and the other guard need to be significantly upgraded. The Dockery's and Holland's just aren't going to cut it.

            It's the same situation as ILB with brooking, akin ayodele, etc. We have too many average players. That's why we are always in close games, and we win some and lose some, and end of finishing 8-8. We need more studs, period. Whether it's at CB, NT, interior OL, or DE i don't care.

            As for franchising spencer, I think it would be stupid, but we may have no other choice. They really must not like any of the 3-4 OLB prospects at 14.

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            • My feeling on Spencer is this.......

              Who do you get to replace him? I want real answers here..not "Gwarr gwarr Spencer sucks, ANYONE would do better". That's simply not true...Victor Butler is a liability against the run, a huge liability.

              There's nobody in the draft that's going to contribute more than what Spencer would...He has his faults at rushing the passer but he's great at stopping the run and shedding blocks.

              Who else is out there as a FA?
              Besides Mario Williams of course...but then that would be breaking the bank.


              So again....the thought of keeping "Almost Anthony" is a bit discouraging...but Bob Sturm puts it best in this article:
              http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012...l-manager.html

              If you're going to replace a guy because he's a 6 or 7 on a 10 point scale, then you better be replacing him with a player that's a 8 to 10....because "Anybody besides Spencer" is more than likely going to be a 4 or 5.

              I am certainly not sure that Twitter and 140 characters is the best way to discuss the play of a football player in proper detail, but I hope my point is clear from those tweets and this previous essay on Spencer; You better understand what he is and that what he is will not be replaced "with a warm body".

              He is the 2nd OLB in a 3-4 defense and therefore should be compared to those in that same category. To compare him to other #1's like Brian Orakpo, Tamba Hali, or Cameron Wake is not practical. That is DeMarcus Ware's job. He matches up against the other guy, and let's see how that works. Let's look at the "2nd Best" in terms of sack totals that outperformed Spencer of the 3-4s in the NFL in 2011:


              Player, Team Sacks Tackles
              Kerrigan, Wash 9 40
              Harrison, Pitt 9 38
              Taylor, Mia 7 11
              Spencer, Dal 6 53



              That is your entire list of OLBs in 3-4 defenses (11 teams in NFL ran true 3-4s in 2011) that had more productive sack seasons than Anthony Spencer did in 2011. So, if you can get Ryan Kerrigan in here to replace Spencer, I would do that (of course, he is under contract in Washington for 4 more seasons). Jason Taylor is strictly a pass rusher and James Harrison is usually Pittsburgh's #1 but had a banged up season (LaMarr Woodley had 10 sacks). However, the 3-4s in San Francisco, Kansas City, Houston, San Diego, Green Bay, Arizona, and New York all had 2nd LBs that were either at Spencer's 6 or well below.

              Obviously, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Some have dominant defensive lines (Arizona, San Francisco) and some have ensemble casts that use a strength in numbers attack.

              But, the idea that a warm body can outperform every other 2nd LB in the scheme with the exception of those 3 teams seems worth noting. Next, look at the same category in 2010:


              Player, Team Sacks Tackles
              Woodley, Pitt 9 30
              Spencer, Dal 5 53
              We need a dominant force opposite Ware.....That's a fact....Spencer isn't a dominate force...Also a fact. What he is though...is an above average LB'er in the NFL. Another fact.

              Who do you guys get to replace him?
              Last edited by FreshBoy!; 02-14-2012, 09:15 PM.

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              • Originally posted by FreshBoy! View Post
                My feeling on Spencer is this.......

                Who do you get to replace him? I want real answers here..not "Gwarr gwarr Spencer sucks, ANYONE would do better". That's simply not true...Victor Butler is a liability against the run, a huge liability.

                There's nobody in the draft that's going to contribute more than what Spencer would...He has his faults at rushing the passer but he's great at stopping the run and shedding blocks.

                Who else is out there as a FA?
                Besides Mario Williams of course...but then that would be breaking the bank.


                So again....the thought of keeping "Almost Anthony" is a bit discouraging...but Bob Sturm puts it best in this article:
                http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012...l-manager.html

                If you're going to replace a guy because he's a 6 or 7 on a 10 point scale, then you better be replacing him with a player that's a 8 to 10....because "Anybody besides Spencer" is more than likely going to be a 4 or 5.



                We need a dominant force opposite Ware.....That's a fact....Spencer isn't a dominate force...Also a fact. What he is though...is an above average LB'er in the NFL. Another fact.

                Who do you guys get to replace him?
                I don't think above average earns you the Franchise Tag... an average of the Top 5 at your position.

                I do think a better DL will help him though... if you wanna take something positive away from it all.

                Why do you think it's so certain that nobody in the draft is better than him at that position? I certainly don't think that's the case. Not for dead sure that is...

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                • Originally posted by CDCB14 View Post
                  I don't get what you mean though. You are saying average improvement is all we need on the interior OL... that is exactly what we did with Holland, Dockery, etc. and it obviously didn't work.

                  It's time to bite the bullet and get one elite interior OL. Whether it's Nicks or a top 2 round pick in the draft, we need one. My flavor of the month right now is a trade down for Konz while picking up an extra third. It seems like a win on all fronts. Hopefully arkin is the future at one guard spot, but center and the other guard need to be significantly upgraded. The Dockery's and Holland's just aren't going to cut it.

                  It's the same situation as ILB with brooking, akin ayodele, etc. We have too many average players. That's why we are always in close games, and we win some and lose some, and end of finishing 8-8. We need more studs, period. Whether it's at CB, NT, interior OL, or DE i don't care.

                  As for franchising spencer, I think it would be stupid, but we may have no other choice. They really must not like any of the 3-4 OLB prospects at 14.
                  Holland and Dockery were left over scraps. They are not average. Brian Waters would've been great. He's exactly the type I'm talking about.

                  ...and truthfully, before they were hurt... Romo and the offense were doing just fine there with Holland and Dockery. It was Nagy and Costa that were horrific.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                    I don't think above average earns you the Franchise Tag... an average of the Top 5 at your position.

                    I do think a better DL will help him though... if you wanna take something positive away from it all.

                    Why do you think it's so certain that nobody in the draft is better than him at that position? I certainly don't think that's the case. Not for dead sure that is...
                    Who? Name them....Obviously the draft is a crap shoot...and players like JPP are the right fit away from being dominant. I just don't see ANYONE that I'd take in the first or 2nd round to replace Spencer.

                    I'm not even arguing FOR "Almost Anthony"...I want him gone...If they're going to pay top dollar for a Free Agent, then it better be Mario and a transition to a 4-3.

                    But if you're staying in a 3-4....there's more pressing issues that can be addressed via the draft. I'd much rather take Dre Kirkpatrick, Decastro, or take a flyer on J. Jenkins in the first...

                    And then address the defensive line in the 2nd.

                    And then the defensive line in the 3rd. Lol....

                    Franchising Spencer obviously would be a sucker punch to the gut, but it's almost buying time for a better LB'er class and stocking the shelf at positions with greater need.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FreshBoy! View Post
                      My feeling on Spencer is this.......

                      Who do you get to replace him? I want real answers here..not "Gwarr gwarr Spencer sucks, ANYONE would do better". That's simply not true...Victor Butler is a liability against the run, a huge liability.

                      There's nobody in the draft that's going to contribute more than what Spencer would...He has his faults at rushing the passer but he's great at stopping the run and shedding blocks.

                      Who else is out there as a FA?
                      Besides Mario Williams of course...but then that would be breaking the bank.


                      So again....the thought of keeping "Almost Anthony" is a bit discouraging...but Bob Sturm puts it best in this article:
                      http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012...l-manager.html

                      If you're going to replace a guy because he's a 6 or 7 on a 10 point scale, then you better be replacing him with a player that's a 8 to 10....because "Anybody besides Spencer" is more than likely going to be a 4 or 5.



                      We need a dominant force opposite Ware.....That's a fact....Spencer isn't a dominate force...Also a fact. What he is though...is an above average LB'er in the NFL. Another fact.

                      Who do you guys get to replace him?

                      That's a very good post, both really. Still, like D said I'm not sure that nobody at 14 will be better. That article points out how he would take Kerrigan over Spencer now, yet one year ago he was a rookie drafted in roughly the same spot we are in now. Had we taken one in the 1st last year we'd have upgraded the position, so why is it so impossible now?


                      Just because they are unknown talents doesn't mean you can't improve, and when you've been an average player like he is you draft to replace him. I think he's more like a 5-6 player on a scale of 1-10, you don't need an 8 to replace that. It'd be nice, but you don't stick with average because your afraid you won't get someone in return that's at least average. That's gonna happen no matter what.


                      I find it hard to believe that with the 14th pick in a draft that's pretty top heavy in O lineman, that all the good pass rushers are gone, or nobody left who can be a stud OLB. That's a very important position in a 3-4 and if we really like someone there I'd be happy with the pick.


                      We spent a 1st rounder on it before, even when we had Greg Ellis, so I doubt we are over looking it this year.





                      Originally posted by Scott Wright
                      I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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                      • I guess my perspective has more to do with what's going to be the greatest impact on the team?

                        Decastro/Kirkpatrick/Jenkins vs. Spencer's replacement.(Ingram or Upshaw maybe are probably the closest to a blue chip right?)

                        I'm moreso asking...throw out names, who else do you guys see stepping in day one for another hole that needs filling? Again..I'm not advocating signing him longterm...but IMO, there are positions of need greater than OLB on the team. That's what I'm weighing against...not necessarily whether or not we can find an upgrade for Spencer, because I"m sure we can, I just feel he's not bad enough to where it's necessary to create another hole.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FreshBoy! View Post
                          I'm not even arguing FOR "Almost Anthony"...I want him gone...If they're going to pay top dollar for a Free Agent, then it better be Mario and a transition to a 4-3.
                          I completely agree with this. If your going to franchise Anthony Spencer for nearly 9 million, why not just spend another 2-3 and get mario williams and switch to a 4-3. If you really look at how it would change our defense, we would probably be a lot better:

                          LE- DeMarcus
                          NT- Lissemore
                          UT- Ratliff
                          RE- Mario Williams

                          Add Hatcher, Brent, Spears, etc. rotating in and that would be a pretty dominant DL.

                          Now to the linebackers:

                          WILL- Carter
                          MIKE- Lee
                          SAM- Butler/free agent/draft pick

                          Obviously we would have no depth, so our draft would need to probably consist of 2 linebackers, 1 in the top 3 rounds and another later on accompanied by an average veteran free agent.

                          Rob ran the 4-3 in Oakland, and with that front 7 I doubt anyone could screw it up. The more I look at it, the more I would want to do it. Think about how dominant that front 7 would be if we landed mario williams... Land a decent free agent linebacker and draft someone like Audie Cole in the 3rd and we'd be set.

                          EDIT: Just tweeted at Broaddus this idea (signing williams instead and switching to a 4-3) and he replied with the following:

                          I don't know how to say this any differently but They are not signing Williams and they aren't switching to 4-3. Sorry.
                          I then asked him if he thought franchising spencer was a smart move and he said this:

                          They don't care what we think. It just tells me they don't like what is in FA and they might going different route in draft.
                          So they really must think little of the free agents and players in the draft.
                          Last edited by CDCB14; 02-14-2012, 10:42 PM.

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                          • All the signing talk for Mario Williams is nice and all...

                            BUT... the Texas are gonna Franchise him, I'm pretty sure. We can trade for him, like I've been saying... but we can't sign him in FA like he's gonna be readily available.

                            Even trading for him is something that I'm not completely sold on because it uses both our 1st round AND our FA cap space.

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                            • Just curious, what is everyone's profession? Me, I own my own online marketing company.

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                              • Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                                We all know that won't happen too. I'm just saying, the emphasis needs to be placed back on defense.

                                As for me saying Romo needing all those things... that was a direct response to the people claiming that we need to surround Romo with high expenditures in FA and 1st round pick usage on OFFENSE. I was reguritating what was being said here. Those weren't my feelings. I'm fine with using picks outside of Round 1 on OL. I'm fine with not getting Nicks in FA. But everytime I say that, I get the reasons WHY WE SHOULD.

                                People saying we need to get Nicks and DeCastro are essentially telling me that Romo NEEDS to have those things in order to do his job. That's adds more fuel to my fire that Romo isn't ALL THAT, if he needs to have those caliber of players in order to do his job.
                                It's not about Romo needing it, it's about the offense needing it. There's no way we can continue on with the interior line we currently have.

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