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  • Originally posted by Macarthur View Post
    I'm going to go against the grain a bit and argue against this run first to set up the pass.

    Some teams do it and do it well. However, I would argue that, contrary to popular football etiqute, it is not written in stone that you have to run to set up the pass.

    I would argue that early last year when Dallas was putting up big numbers offensively, they started the game going for the jugular. They were wearing out the DL rushing the passer, then pounding them with Barber in the 2nd half. I think things changed for us when Garrett started forcing the running game early in games.

    Our running game couldn't have been better against the Giants in the playoff game - what did that get us?

    It is an old axiom that you have to run to set up the pass. I disagree that is HAS to be that way. I challenge each of you to remember back to last year and remember how this team used to wing it around in the first half; it's the same formula the 90s Cowboys used. Emmitt got most of his yardage in the 4th quarter.

    I haven't looked up the numbers but I would bet anything that when our offense started bogging down late last year, it can be attributed to us not being aggressive in the passing game early.

    Granted, I don't think we can accomplish this with Brad, but I would really like to see us come out aggressive when Romo is back in Washington.
    There is an entire article in Pro Football Prospectus 2008 with #'s that prove "establishing the run" is a bunch of crap.

    A lot of teams set up the run with the pass, They open it up and the RB comes in and dominates (sound familiar last year's cowboys?)

    Instead we've changed our mentality this year and it hasn't been as good. A big part of the problem is that we tend to only run deep routes. If Garrett would bust out a 3 step drop and some quick slants every now and then we might actually open things up for a change.

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    • Originally posted by Burns336 View Post
      There is an entire article in Pro Football Prospectus 2008 with #'s that prove "establishing the run" is a bunch of crap.

      A lot of teams set up the run with the pass, They open it up and the RB comes in and dominates (sound familiar last year's cowboys?)

      Instead we've changed our mentality this year and it hasn't been as good. A big part of the problem is that we tend to only run deep routes. If Garrett would bust out a 3 step drop and some quick slants every now and then we might actually open things up for a change.
      I agree. There was also an article on the Boys Blog (the one by Vela and Villalonga) mentioning how important it was for us to use the pass to set up the run. The main point was that rushing the passer affects a DL fatigue more than running at him because he has to sprint for 8-10 yards going full speed and trying to push a big man back. Then do it again, and again...
      I can't find the article back because they closed the blog and opened a new one (http://www.blueandsilverreport.com/) but it was a pretty good reading.


      In Bob We Trust

      John Madden's wedding video business

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddPHJWkPvU

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      • Originally posted by Macarthur View Post
        I'm going to go against the grain a bit and argue against this run first to set up the pass.

        Some teams do it and do it well. However, I would argue that, contrary to popular football etiqute, it is not written in stone that you have to run to set up the pass.

        I would argue that early last year when Dallas was putting up big numbers offensively, they started the game going for the jugular. They were wearing out the DL rushing the passer, then pounding them with Barber in the 2nd half. I think things changed for us when Garrett started forcing the running game early in games.

        Our running game couldn't have been better against the Giants in the playoff game - what did that get us?

        It is an old axiom that you have to run to set up the pass. I disagree that is HAS to be that way. I challenge each of you to remember back to last year and remember how this team used to wing it around in the first half; it's the same formula the 90s Cowboys used. Emmitt got most of his yardage in the 4th quarter.

        I haven't looked up the numbers but I would bet anything that when our offense started bogging down late last year, it can be attributed to us not being aggressive in the passing game early.

        Granted, I don't think we can accomplish this with Brad, but I would really like to see us come out aggressive when Romo is back in Washington.
        Well, there is 2 words in your argument that are subtle, but it changes the whole way I would debate your argument. Those 2 words? "have to". I am in agreement with you that it's not a 100% given that you "have to" use the run to set up the pass in order to be a winning team. It's that "have to" part that I don't agree with.

        But does it work? Of course it works.
        Does it always work? No.
        Is it the only way to make it work? No.

        I would be willing to argue that it increases the odds of you winning in the long run. Sure you may lose a game here and there, but your team's winning ways are more solidly built and can be relied upon with more success if you have established your team around a dominant rush attack.

        In my opinion, if you can run the ball at 5-6 yards per clip, then there's no reason to even pass, except to enforce your will and make the game more entertaining... because let's get real people. Football is a game of entertainment and the majority crowd out there loves to see fireworks in the passing game. But getting back to my feelings, I love football when the defense stacks 8 or 9 in the box and still can't stop the run. That's awesome football to me.

        Conversely, you cannot be successful in the NFL being a passing team without a rushing attack. I don't know any SB team that has won that way. I don't recall off the top of my mind any teams who have been successful in the regular season being a talented passing team with no run game. I can think of a few of those that aren't good... Traditionally speaking... Detroit, Arizona, Cincinnati... I'm sure we could think of more, if we spent time on it.

        I would also argue that it's cheaper to build a winning team built off ground control. You can spend less at WR, because you can win with average to slightly above average WRs or just having one legit #1 WR. You can spend less at QB, because you can win with a bus driver QB. You can spend less on Defense, because look...

        If you can run at will, you own the clock, you wear down opposing defenses, you keep your own defense fresh and fresh legs can make up for some margins in talent.

        Side Bar: But I'm not saying an average defense is sufficient. I believe a strong defense is even better than a strong rushing attack. If you have a strong defense, it doesn't matter what you do on offense. ...Here's the key though. You build your team off the run, which frees up your money to spend on guess what? DEFENSE! Boom!

        I haven't read those articles out there that say running the ball to set up the pass doesn't build winning teams, but it sounds odd.

        But look at the most successful teams out there in recent times...

        NY Giants - Strong rushing with strong defense. IMO, Eli improved as a QB, but prior to that SB, he had many a doubter, and I feel he rode the coattails of the rushing attack and defense and ended up stealing some glory for himself.

        Indianapolis Colts - Peyton and his air attack had been around for a while, but they didn't have real success until their defense stepped up and Joseph Addai came to town.

        Pittsburgh Steelers - Strong Rushing, Strong Defense and a bus driver QB, 1 legit #1 WR in Ward, but average WRs as a whole.

        New England Patriots Dynasty - Their dynasty started off on strong defense, then Tom Brady became Tom Brady, but their WR corps were cheaply spent on the likes of Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, etc etc. They didn't need to spend or acquire elite talent at WR to win SBs. Picking up Corey Dillon was big for them as well.

        Tampa and Baltimore were the other teams who've won a SB this decade. Strong Defense, Strong Running, Bus Driver QBs, average WR corps....

        And if that's not enough... look no further than the only undefeated team this season... Tennessee... Strong Defense, Strong Running, Bus Driver QB, average... no below average WR corps....

        See the theme?



        Back to your point about our loss to the Giants last year... we lost when Garrett stopped running the ball. First half we ran and we were looking great. Second half was a different story. Something like this... "Romo drops back, looks around.... SACKED!" Over and over and over till time ran out...


        We're lucky in that we have a great stable of RBs, a heady QB and very very talented WRs, but we won't win unless we focus on running the ball with authority and our defense is fixed. ...and double lucky... our defense just needs a couple of tweaks, not an overhaul. If we had invested too much in our offense, our defense wouldn't be here today. Luckily we have used our draft picks wisely in building up the D. Our time to shine is just within reach if we play our cards right.

        Comment


        • New week same story with us I guess, penalties that keep stalling drives for us and extending drives for the opponent...Our corners playing 15 feet deep so they can complete an 8 yard reception each time, it's starting to become tough to watch this same crap every week....The penalties are an issue every week.





          Originally posted by Scott Wright
          I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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          • Good solid 1st half. Defense actually looked really good, O-line looks good, Barber is running hard, Roy with his first Cowboys TD, Brad... is whatever, at least he isn't making any big mistakes.

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            • Wade is pushing all the right buttons right now. An ILB sack? are you kidding me? Wonderfulacious!

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              • Sweet Jesus, If I see Brad overthrow one more receiver.

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                • Mike Jenkins lookin' sweet! Who said he was a bust? My Goodness.

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                  • Well here are my notes

                    1) Nice to see the team win with D. Wow.
                    2) Bradie James played excellent. Great gap control, no over pursuit.
                    3) Wade did a good job doing what he should do. He made the right adjustments to take away the little passes to the WR and forcing things into traffic.
                    4) Brad Johnson is god awful. I can not believe we have him and another noodle arm Bollinger. Matt Moore where are you? Horrible decision by Jones.
                    5) Very happy with the Rookie Corners and the Alan Ball sighting.
                    6) Still make knuckle head mistakes but at least no turnovers.
                    7) Garrett is awful right now and very predictable -- where is the three step drop or the slant?

                    Well, the bleeding is stopped. Hopefully we see this Defense every week. If we do it pays for lots of bad O.
                    Last edited by johnstonolb; 10-26-2008, 03:14 PM.

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                    • Nice and much needed win. Defense looked uncharacteristically good today.

                      I don't mean this in a pessimistic way, but after all the drama and injuries, if the worst case scenario going into the bye week is 5-4, I'm ok with that. But obviously 6-3 is what I'm hoping for.

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                      • Hope for Romo. ASAP.

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                        • Jenkins and Scandrick are both gonna be starting caliber corners in this league, I like that their getting much needed reps but I'm concerned about our depth now.


                          This was exactly what our team needed, to show we can win with our defense and playing efficient, it is probably gonna give us a boost going into the NY game knowing we have a shot to win...Nice to see some creativity on D with the blitzes, that's what we've been waiting for, but the 13 yds off has got to stop.





                          Originally posted by Scott Wright
                          I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

                          Comment


                          • Good team defense today

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                            • Defense was brilliant, especially Bradie James. Fantastic showing. Big Mike made a few mistakes but, his defense was sound for the most part...the same can be said for Scandrick. Ball played well when he got out there as well.

                              I'm a little surprised they didnt try to test us deep but, I'm not complaining. Things may have been different had they been taking more shots down the field. But hey, they didnt do too much of that. :)

                              Brad was pretty bad but, he drove the bus well enough, I suppose. May have been a little intoxicated at the wheel but, no turnovers = win. Atleast when we get the win it does. He still sucks, though.

                              Cant say that I'm surprised that we lost another star player today....but, Bennett didnt do to bad a job filling in for him. We should really get him more involved, I want Curtis phased out completely sooner rather than later...geez, he fumbles everytime he touches the football.

                              In closing...I wouldnt call it a team win, given the offensive performance, the defense carried this team today, they were simply outstanding and Wade looks like a god, for today atleast.

                              Thanks BoneKrusher^

                              http://youtube.com/watch?v=6_j52DziMy4 (the man)
                              http://youtube.com/watch?v=2g6S3Anto7c
                              KO KNOWS

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                              • I really don't want to see Brad out there again, he looked beyond terrible.

                                Good win, great game by the D

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