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  • Originally posted by Burns336 View Post
    Here's a stat.

    Barber is second among running backs in passes caught and receiving yards this year.
    Here's a stat: I'm averaging 3.1 boners a game when Barber is on the field.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shane_man View Post

      These stats still do not solve the problem of Marion's piss poor YPC for carries 21-30.
      What are you talking about? The games I posted he had more then 21 carries and his YPC was good in 2 of the 3 games, what's your gripe? Or do you think he should of averaged 5.0 YPC against Tampa Bay with Brad Johnson?

      You would be surprised.

      And isn't that the goddamn point. If he's not capable of going at top speed at the end of a game because we have exhausted him at the start of the game... Shouldn't we be using him in a way which gives us the best chance to win?


      It's sad that you have to use stats to show how good Barber has been for us this year...He's been on the injury report, what once? Since he was drafted, yet that's overlooked, he's a big physical goal line back that can catch like a 3rd down back but that's overlooked, and the way he owned the 4th quarter vs Washington, yea I guess we could just get any old back in here to do those things


      Can't ever make some guys happy I guess, if he's not Adrian Peterson he sucks.





      Originally posted by Scott Wright
      I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shane_man View Post
        That's like saying his playoff game against the Giants was very good. There is more to it then the statline.



        These stats still do not solve the problem of Marion's piss poor YPC for carries 21-30.


        You would be surprised.

        And isn't that the goddamn point. If he's not capable of going at top speed at the end of a game because we have exhausted him at the start of the game... Shouldn't we be using him in a way which gives us the best chance to win?



        He's done an adequate job.

        7th in ATT, 12th in yards and he's not even the TD monster that he's been in previous seasons.

        We KNOW Barber is not an every-down back. So can we stop being subjected to it.
        This post makes me sad. Sad that someone even thinks this.

        Of course Barber is capable of being an every down back. He's proven it this year! Felix has been out and Choice hardly gets the rock. Has our running game been crap? You've got to be kidding me. Who the hell has the nerve to say Barber runs out of gas at the end of games??? C'mon now. Do you really believe that? Barber runs just as hard in the 4th quarter as he does in the 1st. I would be willing to bet that he's even more effective in the 4th than he is in the 1st. He wears mother f***'n defenses down! He doesn't run out of top end speed. He's not a speed back to begin with. His speed is the same. Name me a game where Barber has shown to be tired and ineffective in the 4th quarter. Please do.

        Complaining because he's not a TD monster??? What duh? When was the last time he didn't convert on the goalline? Has it ever happened? TDs are all about opportunity. You can't knock him on that account. MJD has a monster TD rookie season and hasn't repeated that since. So he's worse now? What kind of logic is this?

        His yards? Don't blind yourself foolishly by analyzing rushing stats. Combine total yards passing and receiving and Barber has more total yards than Michael Turner! He has over 1200 total yards!!! The dimension he adds as a receiver even moreso shows off his skills and separates him from many other backs.

        Marion Barber IS an EVERY DOWN back, so get used to it. There's no quarter he can't play in. No down he can't play in.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Macarthur View Post
          I don't like your negative "tone" about Barber, but I do agree with your overall point that 15-20 touches for Barber and 6-12 touches a game for Felix is optimal.

          Which bring up the most frustrating aspect of the whole season for me....The Wash game in which Felix was not given touches.

          There is no question in my mind that if Felix gets 8-10 touches, we win that game.
          The most frustrating aspect of the whole season is that Felix went to IR :(


          In Bob We Trust

          John Madden's wedding video business

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddPHJWkPvU

          Comment


          • Originally posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
            Well, JJ was actually having a very good season until Holmgren decided to go w/ a platoon in the backfield for some strange reason and then he and JJ got into some kind of scuffle and Julius was starting to get phased out and then benched. He and Holmgren hate eachother. In the right situation, Julius is fully capable of being a very good back, just like his brother. Like I said, he was putting together a great season when he was getting the touches. Just like Thomas, he excels w/ more touches. Julius' bad attitude will most likely be his downfall, though.
            I disagree with you here... Julius had an average/mediocre game to start the season then he had 260 yards against San Francisco (which was worse under Nolan) and St Louis (which easily the worst team in football the first weeks of the season). So his "very good season" lasted just 2 games against 2 awful teams.


            In Bob We Trust

            John Madden's wedding video business

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddPHJWkPvU

            Comment


            • Julius Jones is terrible. Aka Robo Jones... Why did John Lennon leave the beatles?
              Whats up buttercup!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Modano View Post
                I disagree with you here... Julius had an average/mediocre game to start the season then he had 260 yards against San Francisco (which was worse under Nolan) and St Louis (which easily the worst team in football the first weeks of the season). So his "very good season" lasted just 2 games against 2 awful teams.
                Julius Jones is not a good back. He has no fight in him. Ever since he bulked up in his first offseason with us, he's lost his speed and agility/flexibility. The two things that made him successful in the first place. Now he simply goes down to easy, doesn't avoid tacklers and he never knew how to follow a block in the first place. Good riddance.

                Comment


                • Wade said today that they've been working Ball and Battle at SS.

                  I'd have to imagine they provide more in coverage.

                  Ball has looked ok, He doesn't seem to totally avoid contact like Courtney Brown who has less tackles than Barber on the season.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Burns336 View Post
                    Wade said today that they've been working Ball and Battle at SS.

                    I'd have to imagine they provide more in coverage.

                    Ball has looked ok, He doesn't seem to totally avoid contact like Courtney Brown who has less tackles than Barber on the season.
                    Interesting tidbit. So we've got a 7th rounder and UDFA sitting back there over Davis. I'm excited! This is going to be like opening up a Christmas present. Will I like it or not... that's the question.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by LonghornsLegend
                      What are you talking about? The games I posted he had more then 21 carries and his YPC was good in 2 of the 3 games, what's your gripe? Or do you think he should of averaged 5.0 YPC against Tampa Bay with Brad Johnson?
                      Do any of you actually read at all?

                      Carries 21-30 Barbarian is averaging 2.9 ypc(roughly) Carries 10-20 and carries 1-10 he is averaging 4.0 YPC. Now my issue is that we have seen in years past that Barber can average upwards of 5+ ypc on those first 1-20 rushes(I personally would stop at 16 but that's just me). You know why? Because he hasn't been abused against a first quarter defence. For all the wall banging he does(and he is still a crazy horse in the first when he's being used at the moment) His burst is deteriorating faster against fully fit defenders who are getting there first shots on him early.

                      I'm trying to think of an analogy to make it easier to understand... But can't.

                      My question is why use up a man who cannot possibly hit with the same force he does in the first quarter all the way through to the 4th quarter? When you know without a shadow of a doubt that by that 4th quarter he isn't hitting as hard.

                      And if you have trouble reading that. His 2.9 YPC for carries 21-30, his 4th quarter Average per attempt is the lowest of his game(3.5 ypc)...

                      This is a guy I want playing at his best in the 4th Quarter as it gives us the best damn chance to win. Not exhausting in the first quarter like we did against the Giants last year.


                      It's sad that you have to use stats to show how good Barber has been for us this year...He's been on the injury report, what once? Since he was drafted, yet that's overlooked, he's a big physical goal line back that can catch like a 3rd down back but that's overlooked, and the way he owned the 4th quarter vs Washington, yea I guess we could just get any old back in here to do those things

                      Can't ever make some guys happy I guess, if he's not Adrian Peterson he sucks.
                      I'm trying not to call you names but you make it hard by turning solid criticisms into something they are not. I don't want AP. I like Barber. But I recognise what Barber's strength is and don't wish to see him made into something he isn't, at the expense of the team.

                      My issue with Barber is because the coaching staff seems to think like you. Yet there is so much evidence out there which suggests it might be smarter to start games with Choice or any other back. That using Barber like a sledgehammer early is a detriment to the teams performance overall. But hey... Barber ran for 129 yards on 27 carries against the Giants, 142 on GB with 29 carries, 114 on Washington with 24 carries...

                      Those are fantastic statlines. I won't deny that they look ridiculously hot.

                      7 carries 8 yards against the Giants last year after his 20 attempt
                      But 8 carries for 32 yards against Green Bay after his 20th attempt.(His ONLY decent one)
                      4 carries for 11 yards against Washington after his 20th attempt.

                      I want to limit stuff of that nature. Again because it needs to be said. I'm not saying Barber is a bad back at all. I personally think he's the best 1/2 of a two headed back system in the NFL. Unfortunately we don't seem to want to use that second head at all.

                      Originally posted by D-Unit
                      This post makes me sad. Sad that someone even thinks this.

                      Of course Barber is capable of being an every down back. He's proven it this year! Felix has been out and Choice hardly gets the rock. Has our running game been crap? You've got to be kidding me. Who the hell has the nerve to say Barber runs out of gas at the end of games??? C'mon now. Do you really believe that? Barber runs just as hard in the 4th quarter as he does in the 1st. I would be willing to bet that he's even more effective in the 4th than he is in the 1st.
                      I would take your money. Go look at the stats. He has been in years past a monster in the 4th quarter but due to the Dallas coaching staff treating him like a packhorse. His 4th quarter yards and YPC has gone down significantly.

                      Barbers stats THIS YEAR

                      Originally posted by 2008
                      1st Quarter- 65 ATT 249 yards 3.8 YPC
                      2nd Quarter- 55 ATT 234 yards 4.3 YPC
                      3rd Quarter- 55 ATT 211 yards 3.8 YPC
                      4th Quarter- 50 ATT 176 yards 3.5 YPC
                      Now compare that with previous seasons where Barber was used for the most part... Perfectly.

                      Originally posted by 2007
                      1st Quarter- 41 ATT 225 yards 5.5 YPC
                      2nd Quarter- 58 ATT 248 yards 4.3 YPC
                      3rd Quarter- 49 ATT 225 yards 4.6 YPC
                      4th Quarter- 83 ATT 406 yards 4.9 YPC
                      Just quickly and worth mentioning. His carries for the 1st quarter there were over the length of a full season. And they were after JJ had opened the game for him. Meaning he probably wouldn't have had any of those runs with anymore then 8 minutes left in the first quarter.

                      Originally posted by 2006
                      1st Quarter- 9 ATT 37 yards 4.1 YPC
                      2nd Quarter- 35 ATT 128 yards 3.7 YPC
                      3rd Quarter- 42 ATT 206 yards 4.9 YPC
                      4th Quarter- 52 ATT 287 yards 5.5 YPC
                      So... Anyone else see a distinct difference in YPC there?

                      He wears mother f***'n defenses down! He doesn't run out of top end speed. He's not a speed back to begin with. His speed is the same. Name me a game where Barber has shown to be tired and ineffective in the 4th quarter. Please do.
                      Any game where he gets over 20+ carries and has worked over the defence from go to woe...

                      Complaining because he's not a TD monster??? What duh? When was the last time he didn't convert on the goalline? Has it ever happened? TDs are all about opportunity. You can't knock him on that account. MJD has a monster TD rookie season and hasn't repeated that since. So he's worse now? What kind of logic is this?
                      It's not about him being worse. It's about his effectiveness as a result of the higher workload.


                      His yards? Don't blind yourself foolishly by analyzing rushing stats. Combine total yards passing and receiving and Barber has more total yards than Michael Turner! He has over 1200 total yards!!! The dimension he adds as a receiver even moreso shows off his skills and separates him from many other backs.

                      Marion Barber IS an EVERY DOWN back, so get used to it. There's no quarter he can't play in. No down he can't play in.
                      Since when do scrimmage yards make you a supreme back? And what the **** does that matter. I'm not arguing the merits of whether Barber is a good or bad back. I'm arguing that his workload takes away alot of his effectiveness for the team.

                      Comment


                      • My whole take on this whole Barber argument is that the numbers everyone keeps referencing have nothing to do with him.

                        Our run blocking BLOWS. We've been horribly inconsistent and for the most part, just terrible.

                        I agree with DMW that Barber will sometimes look to cutback too often and ends up screwing himself instead of just ramming himself into the hole that is provided (like choice seems to do) but more often then not he is getting hit at or behind the line of scrimmage.

                        This happens in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarter. He seems to run the same to me. He never looks tired or worn down, It's just a matter of the opportunity provided by the run blocking.

                        I just don't buy the idea that we are "running him into the ground" or "wearing him out" -- The guy has split carries since college! He has taken on an average workload this year for a feature back. This should be expected of a guy who just received 45 mil in the offseason.

                        I'm certain Felix will be featured even more next year which should bring Barbers carries down a little but please don't tell me he can't handle this workload for 1 season.

                        Clinton Portis, LT, Gore, Steven Jackson, etc. have had this workload placed on them for multiple seasons, so don't tell me the 45 million dollar man can handle it for 1.

                        Lets also not forget that opposing defenses are now game planning to face Barber first thing. They aren't caught of guard by a new style of runner in the 4th quarter.
                        Last edited by Burns336; 12-03-2008, 08:00 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Burns336
                          Lets also not forget that opposing defenses are now game planning to face Barber first thing. They aren't caught of guard by a new style of runner in the 4th quarter.
                          I think his success in the 4th in recent years had less to do with the oppositions inability to be ready to face him and more to do with Barber's ability to break tackles. Factor in that the defenders have already played three quarters and it's the story of a man who should be called a wrecking ball.

                          Comment


                          • Well now, I think you're talking about 2 different things now. Him wearing down versus him being an every down back. It's not one in the same, imo. Have you done similar analysis on other "every down" backs? Do any of them wear down as the game goes on? I think the answer would be yes. What qualifies a RB as an every down back in your eyes? Whether he can have the same effectiveness throughout? I have a different interpretation.

                            When I think of an every down back, I think of a back that can stay in the game on all 4 downs. A back that can be counted on in all facets of the game. In short, medium and long distance downs... a back that can stay in the game in sure passing situations... a back that can run, catch and block.

                            I also think that your case being brought against him considers statistics that can skew the complete picture. I think it's fair to say that it reflects a part of the picture, but I don't agree that it paints the full, complete, bar none, fact of the matter truth to his ability as a RB.

                            Case in point, you mentioned the Giants playoff game last year. However, it doesn't consider the fact that Garrett abandoned the run in the second half, and set himself up for the team's failure calling plays in such predictable manner. The Giants knew when we were going to run and when we were going to pass. It doesn't consider the fact that both the run and the pass were getting shutdown in the second half. That the O-Line's play was pathetic and our whole team was collapsing on offense and defense. There are just too many factors to simply stat YPC and then come to the conclusion that Barber lacks the ability to be an every down back.

                            We have seen the proof in the pudding. When Barber's number is called in any point in the game, he knows what to do with the ball in his hands. He carried the team on his back in the 4th quarter against the Skins. They knew he was going to get the ball and he still kept getting first downs. But this is by far not the only time he has demonstrated that he has the will to wear down and tire defenses.

                            Also, you MUST and I emphasize MUST... consider total yards from scrimmage if you're going to critique a RB in this offense. To simply toss aside his contributions in the passing game is an inadequate way to judge him. Especially since his pass catching skills is a big reason for him being able to be called an every down back... and not having to be called out of the game on sure passing downs.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by D-Unit
                              Well now, I think you're talking about 2 different things now. Him wearing down versus him being an every down back. It's not one in the same, imo. Have you done similar analysis on other "every down" backs? Do any of them wear down as the game goes on? I think the answer would be yes. What qualifies a RB as an every down back in your eyes? Whether he can have the same effectiveness throughout? I have a different interpretation.
                              Portis and AP both actually seem to get better as the game wears on. Both's carries in the 20-30 range this year are ridiculous.

                              AP
                              120 touches in carries 1-10 at 5.4 a carry
                              110 touches in carries 11-20 at 4.0 a carry
                              40 touches in carries 21-30 at 5.4 a carry

                              Portis
                              120 touches in carries 1-10 at 3.8 a carry
                              99 touches in carries 11-20 at 5.4 a carry
                              36 touches in carries 21-30 at 6.6 a carry

                              No RB that I have looked over there stats for has as significant a dropoff in YPC as Marion does.

                              When I think of an every down back, I think of a back that can stay in the game on all 4 downs. A back that can be counted on in all facets of the game. In short, medium and long distance downs... a back that can stay in the game in sure passing situations... a back that can run, catch and block.

                              I also think that your case being brought against him considers statistics that can skew the complete picture. I think it's fair to say that it reflects a part of the picture, but I don't agree that it paints the full, complete, bar none, fact of the matter truth to his ability as a RB.
                              On those facets. I would want Marion in there. He is a complete back in all those situations.

                              Case in point, you mentioned the Giants playoff game last year. However, it doesn't consider the fact that Garrett abandoned the run in the second half, and set himself up for the team's failure calling plays in such predictable manner. The Giants knew when we were going to run and when we were going to pass. It doesn't consider the fact that both the run and the pass were getting shutdown in the second half. That the O-Line's play was pathetic and our whole team was collapsing on offense and defense. There are just too many factors to simply stat YPC and then come to the conclusion that Barber lacks the ability to be an every down back.
                              Barber had something like 18 odd carries in that first half through two significantly long drives...

                              While I'm willing to concede that our team partly collapsed I think it had a whole hell of a lot to do with the Giants coaching and them exploiting the same weakness I see. I'm not willing to suggest they totally let us score 14 through those long drives. But I think it worked in there favour in the second half when they started blitzing like noone's business and they knew Barber didn't have the same burst that he had in the first quarter.

                              We have seen the proof in the pudding. When Barber's number is called in any point in the game, he knows what to do with the ball in his hands. He carried the team on his back in the 4th quarter against the Skins. They knew he was going to get the ball and he still kept getting first downs. But this is by far not the only time he has demonstrated that he has the will to wear down and tire defenses.
                              I know he has a will to wear down and tire D's. That's what I love. His competitiveness is off the charts. But our coaches IMO must recognise that while he's willing to do what's asked of him. Nay while he himself NEEDS to do what's asked of him. They have to work him more effectively if they wish to go all the way.

                              Also, you MUST and I emphasize MUST... consider total yards from scrimmage if you're going to critique a RB in this offense. To simply toss aside his contributions in the passing game is an inadequate way to judge him. Especially since his pass catching skills is a big reason for him being able to be called an every down back... and not having to be called out of the game on sure passing downs.
                              I'm not judging him as a RB. I'm just judging his effectiveness. I have been so impressed with his improvement in pass catching and Pass blocking over the last two years. I'm a massive JJ fan who initially wanted JJ to just pound the rock 30 times a game while his body held up because I valued his contributions. But I now feel that Marion is an all-round better back.

                              I just have questions about his effectiveness when he's being ran into the ground. That's it. That's all.

                              Every hit he takes is going to take a physical toll on his body. Because other backs avoid hits if possible. Marion almost looks for the hit. Now I'm not saying he's more injury prone or anything of that nature. And I certainly don't want him to change the way he plays. I just think with each hit you lose a bit of venom as a game goes on. And it would serve us better to have another RB open a game. Choice is actually the perfect guy to do it. Same type of back as Marion in terms of running style... He will keep that same intensity up that Marion has and take those punishing hits. It tire's the defence out more and gives Marion the freshness he will need later on when the game is on the line.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Burns336 View Post
                                Here's a stat.

                                Barber is second among running backs in passes caught and receiving yards this year.
                                This is a good thing and a bad thing. He has proven to be a great receiver but, this reflects very poorly on QB play this year. If you guys remember when Tony was playing all depressed like earlier in the year, he would get into the habit of checking down to Marion a lot and then of course we had Brad who pretty much only threw the ball to Marion. In our offense...Marion probably shouldnt have that many receptions. Yeah, he'll get his but, it's a little much this year and again that falls on bad QB play early on and the useless Brad Johnson. Luckily, Tony is back to playing like the Tony Romo we've all come to know and love.

                                Thanks BoneKrusher^

                                http://youtube.com/watch?v=6_j52DziMy4 (the man)
                                http://youtube.com/watch?v=2g6S3Anto7c
                                KO KNOWS

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