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  • Originally posted by DMWSackMachine
    Originally posted by bigbluedefense
    Originally posted by LSUALUM99
    Originally posted by D-Unit
    I'm with BBD.

    Stats are like bikinis... they show some things, but not all.

    LSU, pull that bikini down and you'll see what we see!
    Actually No, the numbers only show the truth. Your quote is generally a quote that someone says when they have their mind made up and refuse to use actual numbers to validate their point.

    When taken in context, numbers tell the WHOLE story. It's like a respected coach once said, you are what you are. People say all the time that a team is 'not really a 500 team' or a team is 'not nearly as good as the record indicates'. Well, no, actually they are. Trends can be used to qualify that statement, but you can't use trends without Data to make your point.

    For instance, the 'best' team in the NFL over the course of the season has been the Chicago Bears. Both by record and by the quality of play. Now, notice I said the course of the season. Also, the best team in the last 8 games has been the Dallas Cowboys. (Data supplied by footballoutsiders.com). Now, you can analyze everything you want in the NFL, but if you want to look at the offensive production of the Dallas Cowboys you have to say the OL has been performing Good.

    Could it be improved? Sure, but that's where we differ on the use of the money / draft picks. The dfference between a 1st round OL and a 5th round OL is not nearly as great as a 1st round CB and a 5th Round CB or a 1st round WR and a 5th round WR.

    Diminshing returns, that's the key component to realize in the draft and in Free Agency.

    That's why I'm opposed to drafting an OL in the first round of the draft. The potential for impact isn't as great as in a 'skill' position player.
    We just have a difference of opinion on this one. Im highly opposed to the notions that stats can tell the whole story, if thats the case, then Elway wasn't a great quarterback because he had a mid 50s completion %, and we all know that to be a poor assumption. If thats also the case, than most years the team with the best record should win the superbowl, since logic tells you moreos than not, the best team should win. However we know that to be incorrect, the best record usually doesn't win the SB if anything.

    I also have a difference of opinion on draft quality. I personally feel that skill position players are highly overrated. I think its more important to build your trenches in the early rounds. You can have the best WR in the world, if you don't have an oline that can give him time to run routes, he's worthless. See Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds as an example. At the same time, you can have an average WR, if he has 5 seconds to get open, he'll get open. See KC's WR core, Philly's WR core, or SD's core as examples of that. It all starts with the lines, on both sides of the ball. Id invest my money in the trenches before anything else. Especially on a team with no glaring weakness at the skill positions like yours.

    But drafting/FA philosophies are just that. There truely is no right or wrong answer in the approach. Thats just a difference of opinion.
    I agree with both of you, in spots. First of all, of all the positions in the NFL to evaluate, OT is said to be the easiest and least risky. Simply put, there are less moving parts/variables to take into account, and you usually don't have the added burden of dealing with the "swollen head syndrome" that skill position players get when they start having success, because OL generally go unnoticed, and hence un-flattered.

    Because of all this, the absolute cream of the crop O-lineman rarely ever escape notice. Usually when they do, it's a result of them playing for a small school (like LA), or injuries/lack of opportunity to show what they have. Hence, you are almost never going to get a shot at the Pace, Ogden, Boselli, Munoz, Walter Jones, Hutchinson, Roaf, Faneca or Andrews types without using a top pick on them.

    We have no shot at the top OTs this year because of our draft position likely being in the late 20s to early 30s. However, because OGs are thought to be less valuable and/or rare, the top prospects at that position usually drop down to the second half of round one. This year, to me, the only guy fitting that profile has got to be Blalock. If we go OL in round 1, it has to be him, period. I don't want to take a shot at the second tier OTs like Levi Brown. I would much rather wait until at least the end of round 2 to take a shot at a OT, and even then I would rather not.

    To me, there are two types of O-lineman. The can't-miss kind and the developmental kind. Usually it takes a top 20 pick to get ahold of the can't misses, and the developmental kind can be found almost as easily at the end of round 6 as the end of round 1. So, to me, it's either Thomas, Long, Baker or Blalock in the 1st, or wait til later.

    I do not think we have a huge need at OL. However, I would agree that it is probably our biggest one, simply because of the lack of holes elsewhere. But if we are going to draft one that high, I want a dominator inside like Justin. Otherwise, we can bolster it with some later round developmental types.

    I am on board with the idea of building a dominant offensive line, and if we have a shot at that, we should definitely go for it. The value of having a unit like that cannot be overstated. Our success in the early 90s all began up front with those big boys.


    I'm starting to think that we should take a look at Anthony Spencer, though. We simply must have more pressure on the QB, and if that means bringing him in to play ROLB and moving DeMarcus to SOLB, then so be it, but we just are not generating enough pressure, and that cannot be accepted.

    Our needs, imo:

    1. OG/OL
    2. FS
    3. Pass rush
    4. Pass rush
    5. Pass rush
    6. Pass rush
    7. RB
    Excellent point. I go back and forth with drafting another hybrid given the depth with have at that position. But the lack of pressure is troubling. I think we should also consider briging in a penetrating DT to provide push up the middle. That would help our all of our linebackers get better pressure. All of those near misses DWare has would be sacks since the QB wouldn't have anywhere to go.


    "You know what charm is: a way of getting the answer yes without having asked any clear question."
    Albert Camus

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DMWSackMachine
      Originally posted by bigbluedefense
      Originally posted by LSUALUM99
      Originally posted by D-Unit
      I'm with BBD.

      Stats are like bikinis... they show some things, but not all.

      LSU, pull that bikini down and you'll see what we see!
      Actually No, the numbers only show the truth. Your quote is generally a quote that someone says when they have their mind made up and refuse to use actual numbers to validate their point.

      When taken in context, numbers tell the WHOLE story. It's like a respected coach once said, you are what you are. People say all the time that a team is 'not really a 500 team' or a team is 'not nearly as good as the record indicates'. Well, no, actually they are. Trends can be used to qualify that statement, but you can't use trends without Data to make your point.

      For instance, the 'best' team in the NFL over the course of the season has been the Chicago Bears. Both by record and by the quality of play. Now, notice I said the course of the season. Also, the best team in the last 8 games has been the Dallas Cowboys. (Data supplied by footballoutsiders.com). Now, you can analyze everything you want in the NFL, but if you want to look at the offensive production of the Dallas Cowboys you have to say the OL has been performing Good.

      Could it be improved? Sure, but that's where we differ on the use of the money / draft picks. The dfference between a 1st round OL and a 5th round OL is not nearly as great as a 1st round CB and a 5th Round CB or a 1st round WR and a 5th round WR.

      Diminshing returns, that's the key component to realize in the draft and in Free Agency.

      That's why I'm opposed to drafting an OL in the first round of the draft. The potential for impact isn't as great as in a 'skill' position player.
      We just have a difference of opinion on this one. Im highly opposed to the notions that stats can tell the whole story, if thats the case, then Elway wasn't a great quarterback because he had a mid 50s completion %, and we all know that to be a poor assumption. If thats also the case, than most years the team with the best record should win the superbowl, since logic tells you moreos than not, the best team should win. However we know that to be incorrect, the best record usually doesn't win the SB if anything.

      I also have a difference of opinion on draft quality. I personally feel that skill position players are highly overrated. I think its more important to build your trenches in the early rounds. You can have the best WR in the world, if you don't have an oline that can give him time to run routes, he's worthless. See Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds as an example. At the same time, you can have an average WR, if he has 5 seconds to get open, he'll get open. See KC's WR core, Philly's WR core, or SD's core as examples of that. It all starts with the lines, on both sides of the ball. Id invest my money in the trenches before anything else. Especially on a team with no glaring weakness at the skill positions like yours.

      But drafting/FA philosophies are just that. There truely is no right or wrong answer in the approach. Thats just a difference of opinion.
      I agree with both of you, in spots. First of all, of all the positions in the NFL to evaluate, OT is said to be the easiest and least risky. Simply put, there are less moving parts/variables to take into account, and you usually don't have the added burden of dealing with the "swollen head syndrome" that skill position players get when they start having success, because OL generally go unnoticed, and hence un-flattered.

      Because of all this, the absolute cream of the crop O-lineman rarely ever escape notice. Usually when they do, it's a result of them playing for a small school (like LA), or injuries/lack of opportunity to show what they have. Hence, you are almost never going to get a shot at the Pace, Ogden, Boselli, Munoz, Walter Jones, Hutchinson, Roaf, Faneca or Andrews types without using a top pick on them.

      We have no shot at the top OTs this year because of our draft position likely being in the late 20s to early 30s. However, because OGs are thought to be less valuable and/or rare, the top prospects at that position usually drop down to the second half of round one. This year, to me, the only guy fitting that profile has got to be Blalock. If we go OL in round 1, it has to be him, period. I don't want to take a shot at the second tier OTs like Levi Brown. I would much rather wait until at least the end of round 2 to take a shot at a OT, and even then I would rather not.

      To me, there are two types of O-lineman. The can't-miss kind and the developmental kind. Usually it takes a top 20 pick to get ahold of the can't misses, and the developmental kind can be found almost as easily at the end of round 6 as the end of round 1. So, to me, it's either Thomas, Long, Baker or Blalock in the 1st, or wait til later.

      I do not think we have a huge need at OL. However, I would agree that it is probably our biggest one, simply because of the lack of holes elsewhere. But if we are going to draft one that high, I want a dominator inside like Justin. Otherwise, we can bolster it with some later round developmental types.

      I am on board with the idea of building a dominant offensive line, and if we have a shot at that, we should definitely go for it. The value of having a unit like that cannot be overstated. Our success in the early 90s all began up front with those big boys.


      I'm starting to think that we should take a look at Anthony Spencer, though. We simply must have more pressure on the QB, and if that means bringing him in to play ROLB and moving DeMarcus to SOLB, then so be it, but we just are not generating enough pressure, and that cannot be accepted.

      Our needs, imo:

      1. OG/OL
      2. FS
      3. Pass rush
      4. Pass rush
      5. Pass rush
      6. Pass rush
      7. RB
      Excellent point. I go back and forth with drafting another hybrid given the depth with have at that position. But the lack of pressure is troubling. I think we should also consider briging in a penetrating DT to provide push up the middle. That would help our all of our linebackers get better pressure. All of those near misses DWare has would be sacks since the QB wouldn't have anywhere to go.


      "You know what charm is: a way of getting the answer yes without having asked any clear question."
      Albert Camus

      Comment


      • I think that the problem with our pass rush is more with the scheme than the players..
        We've invested an 18th pick on Carpenter, i don't want him to sit on the bench.. I think that with a dominant NT our pass rush could step to another level..


        In Bob We Trust

        John Madden's wedding video business

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddPHJWkPvU

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Modano
          I think that the problem with our pass rush is more with the scheme than the players..
          We've invested an 18th pick on Carpenter, i don't want him to sit on the bench.. I think that with a dominant NT our pass rush could step to another level..


          I agree.


          "You know what charm is: a way of getting the answer yes without having asked any clear question."
          Albert Camus

          Comment


          • In terms of pass rush, I think you have to give Carp at least until the end of next year before you write him off, so I don't think Spencer should be looked at.

            I think the issue at pass rush comes down to 2 things.

            1. Lack of a dominant NT
            2. LE not generating any pressure

            Marcus Spears has been a huge disappointment. He is simply not producing like he should. He's been very average this year. Pressure from his side would make a 4 man rush out of your defense that much better.

            More importantly though, youre not getting any push up the middle, and that starts with the NT. Ferguson is very serviceable in the run game, but to truely have a dominant pass rush you must have that NT who can swallow the interior of the oline, and Ferguson is not that guy.

            I don't think theres a viable replacement in this draft either, so youre just gonna have to make do with what you got. Okeye I guess has potential, but most feel he's a 4-3 NT/UT from what I heard, he has no realistic shot at succeeding as a 3-4 NT. I thought he did, considering he's only 19, but I guess not.

            And of course, youd love to see DWare work on his pass rushing techniques in the offseason. Perhaps hiring a dline/rushbacker coach who can work more exclusively with him will help accelerate his learning curve.

            Maybe even signing Kelly Gregg in the offseason would improve your push up the middle. But I don't know if he would be any better than Fergy. Maybe passing up on Gabe Watson was a mistake for you guys, he couldve been the guy if Parcells could motivate him.

            Comment


            • Everyone here wants a 2 gap DT it looks like. I personally don't agree. Between Furgy and Newman...they have been the reason our defense has been so dominate. If Canty/Spears quit playing like robots I think we would be number 1 instead of 4. But Furgy has demanded double teams all year...and when he hasn't he has got to the QB. What we need is someone to take him off the field maybe 1 every 4 times out and someone to play the NT in the Nickle. I don't think a Glover type guy is a need. Ratliff gets great pressure in the nickle from the inside...yet he gets double teamed about half the time.

              With this break down I think Tank Tyler is the guy we need. He has been disruptive all year long even getting into the backfield. He has the potential to be a dominate NT of the future....and could play a great NT in the nickle...making teams decide who to double. Who would you double on this line?

              Ware-Tank-Ratliff-Hatcher

              Not sold yet? Lets look back at Pepper Johnson. Parcells loves NT's with nicknames :P


              For the most part I agree with LSU as stated before. You try to get skill position players early. Which is why I was high on Ginn. But if we are picking in the 26-32 range...we dont' have a very good shot at landing a player like that. I mean we likely won't have a shot at blalock/any good ot/wr. So I agree...that if CB is the best playmaking position available we attack it. Because I would much rather address OT/OG later then pick Levi. He is solid but could pick someone up similar to him later in the draft.

              D I remember breaking down Austin in training camp. Saying watch out for him he could be our future number one. Well now its back to our three year program.

              Year One - Learn the System
              Year Two - Refine your Skills
              Year Three - Show me something.

              This Draft will show a lot as far as what we see in our future WR corps. The only WR I could see us bringing in is a quick guy. I mean realistically he only needs to be better then Rector. He needs to have return abilities and he would take over Green.

              If I'm in the front office...and Ginn falls out of the top 10...I'm trying as hard as I can to trade up. I'm offering singleton/coleman/davis/crayton/hurd w/e it takes to move up.

              Comment


              • Everyone here wants a 2 gap DT it looks like. I personally don't agree. Between Furgy and Newman...they have been the reason our defense has been so dominate. If Canty/Spears quit playing like robots I think we would be number 1 instead of 4. But Furgy has demanded double teams all year...and when he hasn't he has got to the QB. What we need is someone to take him off the field maybe 1 every 4 times out and someone to play the NT in the Nickle. I don't think a Glover type guy is a need. Ratliff gets great pressure in the nickle from the inside...yet he gets double teamed about half the time.

                With this break down I think Tank Tyler is the guy we need. He has been disruptive all year long even getting into the backfield. He has the potential to be a dominate NT of the future....and could play a great NT in the nickle...making teams decide who to double. Who would you double on this line?

                Ware-Tank-Ratliff-Hatcher

                Not sold yet? Lets look back at Pepper Johnson. Parcells loves NT's with nicknames :P


                For the most part I agree with LSU as stated before. You try to get skill position players early. Which is why I was high on Ginn. But if we are picking in the 26-32 range...we dont' have a very good shot at landing a player like that. I mean we likely won't have a shot at blalock/any good ot/wr. So I agree...that if CB is the best playmaking position available we attack it. Because I would much rather address OT/OG later then pick Levi. He is solid but could pick someone up similar to him later in the draft.

                D I remember breaking down Austin in training camp. Saying watch out for him he could be our future number one. Well now its back to our three year program.

                Year One - Learn the System
                Year Two - Refine your Skills
                Year Three - Show me something.

                This Draft will show a lot as far as what we see in our future WR corps. The only WR I could see us bringing in is a quick guy. I mean realistically he only needs to be better then Rector. He needs to have return abilities and he would take over Green.

                If I'm in the front office...and Ginn falls out of the top 10...I'm trying as hard as I can to trade up. I'm offering singleton/coleman/davis/crayton/hurd w/e it takes to move up.

                Comment


                • Everyone here wants a 2 gap DT it looks like. I personally don't agree. Between Furgy and Newman...they have been the reason our defense has been so dominate. If Canty/Spears quit playing like robots I think we would be number 1 instead of 4. But Furgy has demanded double teams all year...and when he hasn't he has got to the QB. What we need is someone to take him off the field maybe 1 every 4 times out and someone to play the NT in the Nickle. I don't think a Glover type guy is a need. Ratliff gets great pressure in the nickle from the inside...yet he gets double teamed about half the time.

                  With this break down I think Tank Tyler is the guy we need. He has been disruptive all year long even getting into the backfield. He has the potential to be a dominate NT of the future....and could play a great NT in the nickle...making teams decide who to double. Who would you double on this line?

                  Ware-Tank-Ratliff-Hatcher

                  Not sold yet? Lets look back at Pepper Johnson. Parcells loves NT's with nicknames :P


                  For the most part I agree with LSU as stated before. You try to get skill position players early. Which is why I was high on Ginn. But if we are picking in the 26-32 range...we dont' have a very good shot at landing a player like that. I mean we likely won't have a shot at blalock/any good ot/wr. So I agree...that if CB is the best playmaking position available we attack it. Because I would much rather address OT/OG later then pick Levi. He is solid but could pick someone up similar to him later in the draft.

                  D I remember breaking down Austin in training camp. Saying watch out for him he could be our future number one. Well now its back to our three year program.

                  Year One - Learn the System
                  Year Two - Refine your Skills
                  Year Three - Show me something.

                  This Draft will show a lot as far as what we see in our future WR corps. The only WR I could see us bringing in is a quick guy. I mean realistically he only needs to be better then Rector. He needs to have return abilities and he would take over Green.

                  If I'm in the front office...and Ginn falls out of the top 10...I'm trying as hard as I can to trade up. I'm offering singleton/coleman/davis/crayton/hurd w/e it takes to move up.

                  Comment


                  • Everyone here wants a 2 gap DT it looks like. I personally don't agree. Between Furgy and Newman...they have been the reason our defense has been so dominate. If Canty/Spears quit playing like robots I think we would be number 1 instead of 4. But Furgy has demanded double teams all year...and when he hasn't he has got to the QB. What we need is someone to take him off the field maybe 1 every 4 times out and someone to play the NT in the Nickle. I don't think a Glover type guy is a need. Ratliff gets great pressure in the nickle from the inside...yet he gets double teamed about half the time.

                    With this break down I think Tank Tyler is the guy we need. He has been disruptive all year long even getting into the backfield. He has the potential to be a dominate NT of the future....and could play a great NT in the nickle...making teams decide who to double. Who would you double on this line?

                    Ware-Tank-Ratliff-Hatcher

                    Not sold yet? Lets look back at Pepper Johnson. Parcells loves NT's with nicknames :P


                    For the most part I agree with LSU as stated before. You try to get skill position players early. Which is why I was high on Ginn. But if we are picking in the 26-32 range...we dont' have a very good shot at landing a player like that. I mean we likely won't have a shot at blalock/any good ot/wr. So I agree...that if CB is the best playmaking position available we attack it. Because I would much rather address OT/OG later then pick Levi. He is solid but could pick someone up similar to him later in the draft.

                    D I remember breaking down Austin in training camp. Saying watch out for him he could be our future number one. Well now its back to our three year program.

                    Year One - Learn the System
                    Year Two - Refine your Skills
                    Year Three - Show me something.

                    This Draft will show a lot as far as what we see in our future WR corps. The only WR I could see us bringing in is a quick guy. I mean realistically he only needs to be better then Rector. He needs to have return abilities and he would take over Green.

                    If I'm in the front office...and Ginn falls out of the top 10...I'm trying as hard as I can to trade up. I'm offering singleton/coleman/davis/crayton/hurd w/e it takes to move up.

                    Comment


                    • Everyone here wants a 2 gap DT it looks like. I personally don't agree. Between Furgy and Newman...they have been the reason our defense has been so dominate. If Canty/Spears quit playing like robots I think we would be number 1 instead of 4. But Furgy has demanded double teams all year...and when he hasn't he has got to the QB. What we need is someone to take him off the field maybe 1 every 4 times out and someone to play the NT in the Nickle. I don't think a Glover type guy is a need. Ratliff gets great pressure in the nickle from the inside...yet he gets double teamed about half the time.

                      With this break down I think Tank Tyler is the guy we need. He has been disruptive all year long even getting into the backfield. He has the potential to be a dominate NT of the future....and could play a great NT in the nickle...making teams decide who to double. Who would you double on this line?

                      Ware-Tank-Ratliff-Hatcher

                      Not sold yet? Lets look back at Pepper Johnson. Parcells loves NT's with nicknames :P


                      For the most part I agree with LSU as stated before. You try to get skill position players early. Which is why I was high on Ginn. But if we are picking in the 26-32 range...we dont' have a very good shot at landing a player like that. I mean we likely won't have a shot at blalock/any good ot/wr. So I agree...that if CB is the best playmaking position available we attack it. Because I would much rather address OT/OG later then pick Levi. He is solid but could pick someone up similar to him later in the draft.

                      D I remember breaking down Austin in training camp. Saying watch out for him he could be our future number one. Well now its back to our three year program.

                      Year One - Learn the System
                      Year Two - Refine your Skills
                      Year Three - Show me something.

                      This Draft will show a lot as far as what we see in our future WR corps. The only WR I could see us bringing in is a quick guy. I mean realistically he only needs to be better then Rector. He needs to have return abilities and he would take over Green.

                      If I'm in the front office...and Ginn falls out of the top 10...I'm trying as hard as I can to trade up. I'm offering singleton/coleman/davis/crayton/hurd w/e it takes to move up.

                      Comment


                      • I'm looking for big things for Carp next year. I think he'll be more comfortable and stronger. Plus I think he'll have a more defined role whether it be inside or outside.


                        "You know what charm is: a way of getting the answer yes without having asked any clear question."
                        Albert Camus

                        Comment


                        • Id actually like to take a flyer on parrish... He cant be worse than davis/watkins (at least i dont think he could) and maybe a good secondary such as ours will allow him to feel more comfortable and do some of the things he used to do. Maybe we could squeeze some production out of him for a few games, much like troy vincent(last year? i think) after everyone had him labeled as washed up. Who knows, if Bill does it, im sure he sees something, and if we dont look at him, im sure Bill doesnt think he would help. With the Romo move and then and switch to Gramatica, wouldnt it be great to see us bring in an old FS and have him turn out to be another perfect move...

                          Comment


                          • Id actually like to take a flyer on parrish... He cant be worse than davis/watkins (at least i dont think he could) and maybe a good secondary such as ours will allow him to feel more comfortable and do some of the things he used to do. Maybe we could squeeze some production out of him for a few games, much like troy vincent(last year? i think) after everyone had him labeled as washed up. Who knows, if Bill does it, im sure he sees something, and if we dont look at him, im sure Bill doesnt think he would help. With the Romo move and then and switch to Gramatica, wouldnt it be great to see us bring in an old FS and have him turn out to be another perfect move...

                            Comment


                            • Id actually like to take a flyer on parrish... He cant be worse than davis/watkins (at least i dont think he could) and maybe a good secondary such as ours will allow him to feel more comfortable and do some of the things he used to do. Maybe we could squeeze some production out of him for a few games, much like troy vincent(last year? i think) after everyone had him labeled as washed up. Who knows, if Bill does it, im sure he sees something, and if we dont look at him, im sure Bill doesnt think he would help. With the Romo move and then and switch to Gramatica, wouldnt it be great to see us bring in an old FS and have him turn out to be another perfect move...

                              Comment


                              • Id actually like to take a flyer on parrish... He cant be worse than davis/watkins (at least i dont think he could) and maybe a good secondary such as ours will allow him to feel more comfortable and do some of the things he used to do. Maybe we could squeeze some production out of him for a few games, much like troy vincent(last year? i think) after everyone had him labeled as washed up. Who knows, if Bill does it, im sure he sees something, and if we dont look at him, im sure Bill doesnt think he would help. With the Romo move and then and switch to Gramatica, wouldnt it be great to see us bring in an old FS and have him turn out to be another perfect move...

                                Comment

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