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Dolphins' 2008 Draft

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Memorex View Post
    Look at this freak QB that we got as an UDFA!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfVreEXJM4

    I'm guessing he will be trying out as a WR or KR seeing he is a whopping 5'9 165
    This guy has to make the team. Just looks like one of those pain in the butt players to defend. Very jittery and super quick. If you make him a kick returner, you can give Ginn a little break which should help him become a better WR. Wow, that was something to watch...

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Quagmire View Post
      Joe,

      While I like the focus on the trenches, this is far from an A+ draft. There were a ton of good players that went off the board between the Murphy pick and the Parmele pick. Miami should have played the draft to make sure that they had a fifth round pick somehow. Tons of players went in that range that could really have helped us. To me, that goes back to the lack of Jason Taylor trade. I think they were a little too stubborn on that. I think that if they went back to Jax and asked for their #2 and one of their #5's this yr or one next yr, the deal would have gotten done and we would have Quentin Groves right now.

      I also thought they took Langford a bit high and would have loved to see them drop a little more and add back the 5 that they did not have.

      I thought the first day was an A-, but for me gets downgraded to a B- because of not trading JT. . Especially love the pick of Merling........

      Day 2 was more of more a B-, C+ for me because I feel that they let the draft slip away some when there could have been more players added. I don't have a problems with the players picked too much. I think Murphy will be a player. I think they should have drafted Ahtyba Rubin in round 6 ahead of Parmele, but we will see how that turns out.

      Basically, the reasons I do not grade it as high as you is that they did not get a WR and that they did not get the true 3-4 OLB/pass rusher. Those things could have been accomplished more easily with a JT trade to add picks...

      Overall, I see a B- draft that could have been an A-, had they traded JT.

      Dude, your evaluate a draft based on the players you got with the picks you had. Just because we didn't trade our best player for 2 extra picks you completely downgrade our entire draft? Let's get realistic here. We drafted 3 DEs. Having JT on the roster is not such a bad thing to help those guys grow as players.

      I thought we needed to trade JT as well but saying we didn't have a great draft because we kept our best player is boarderline insane.

      With the picks we had, we got exactly what we needed. I couldn't ask for more. I think you guys were hoping to address every single weak area we had as your all asking for NTs, CBs, and WRs. Those are needs but we had way too many holes to fill in 1 draft. Wouldn't have matter if we had 9 picks or 19 picks, there were too many holes to fill in 1 offseason. We spent our resources exactly were they needed to go. In the trenches and at QB.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
        Dude, your evaluate a draft based on the players you got with the picks you had. Just because we didn't trade our best player for 2 extra picks you completely downgrade our entire draft? Let's get realistic here. We drafted 3 DEs. Having JT on the roster is not such a bad thing to help those guys grow as players.

        I thought we needed to trade JT as well but saying we didn't have a great draft because we kept our best player is boarderline insane.

        With the picks we had, we got exactly what we needed. I couldn't ask for more. I think you guys were hoping to address every single weak area we had as your all asking for NTs, CBs, and WRs. Those are needs but we had way too many holes to fill in 1 draft. Wouldn't have matter if we had 9 picks or 19 picks, there were too many holes to fill in 1 offseason. We spent our resources exactly were they needed to go. In the trenches and at QB.
        Joe,

        You can absolutely downgrade a draft for missed opportunities. In this case, not trading JT cost us Quentin Groves. Period. And possibly some more depth picks in the later rds. Now, they have to wait til training camp at the earliest and maybe the trade deadline. What if he gets hurt? What if the distraction of his unhappiness here effects the team? What if his age finally catches up to him. His value plummets.. Bottom line is that they screwed up big time not trading him.

        As for the players, you will see that I put down that I really liked the day 1 guys and that while I liked day 2, I thought they could have done better. If I was to ask you before the draft, Adiran Arrington or Lex Hilliard, who are you taking? Ahtyba Rubin or Jalen Parmele? Come on now..

        Again, I am not saying it was a bad draft. I have no problem with the building of the "trenches". But, I do have a problem with the fact that I think they left some better players on the board and that they really missed some opportunities with the stubbornness on JT. Think about it, Carl Nicks went in round 5. So did Orlando Scandrick, Roy Schuening, Marcus Howard & Kellen Davis. Those are guys who are going to play in this league this yr. If they "played the game" a little better, I think they would have had some really good players to choose from.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Quagmire View Post
          Joe,

          You can absolutely downgrade a draft for missed opportunities. In this case, not trading JT cost us Quentin Groves. Period.
          How do you know that? You have no idea what was offered. From all accounts Jacksonville never offered us more then a 3rd rounder and the TB talks never even reached the point of talking compensation. Even Schefter acknowledged as much and he's usually spot on with his reporting. There were millions of reports flying during the draft but almost everyone is admitting now that he was not even close to being dealt because we never got a good offer. You can go listen to the ESPN guys, they aren't ripping us for keeping Taylor, they are ripping Jacksonville for not putting their 2nd rounder on the table for him. We never even got a halfway decent offer for him from all accounts so your just projecting what you thought we would have been able to get so we can land Grove but in reality you have no idea if we really had a chance to take him or not by trading JT. There's no way you can downgrade us for not getting Groves when it might not have even been feasible for us to land him. That makes no sense.

          If you would have asked me before the draft if I WANTED Rubin, then for sure I would have wanted him over most of our 2nd day picks, no questions asked. If you would have asked me if I thought we were going to GET Rubin, I would have said no way. I was not expecting him in this draft class. You can go to the running list of players I said we were targetting and we drafted a fair amount of them including Langford and Dotson on the DL. It's one thing for me to like a guy and want him but I definately was not expecting him and I think you have to tailor your grading based on realistic expectations. Realistically they were not targetting him and did not want him. I find it hard to fault a team for idenitifing the guys they want, and then going out and getting them and the Dolphins got exactly the guys they wanted as I had heard they had really liked Langford, Dotson, Murphy and Henne for weeks. You know for sure they met with Merling as he even said it and Parmele said Miami was in regular contact with him.

          As for Parmele, if a week ago you would have said we traded Booker and are going to take a RB, I would have been looking at him in the 4th round range. I would have taken him ahead of Murphy, ahead of Hillard, ahead of Arrington, Monk, Urrutia. I really, really love Parmele as a prospect. He was one of my favorite sleepers along with Dixon and Omon. Landing him to play ST and then take over as Ronnie's main backup next season I thought was a great move and I find no fault in taking him over anyone. The kid is a really good prospect.

          I just think you are projecting what you thought should happen instead of projecting what was realistic to happen. I knew this draft was going to be huge on the trenches and I knew which player the Dolphins had targetted. I am not at all surprised that we passed on Rubin or Arrington or any of those guy because we did not have them targetted. I was more surprised by us passing Dan Connor and Charles Godfrey in round 3 as they were targets of ours and both came to Miami to meet with us. But even then, I can't fault the Langford pick because I know how much the staff liked him and he went almost exactly where I had him on my personal board.

          I find on fault in targetting the guys you want and getting them pretty much spot on where their value says they should go. You shouldn't stray from your board because some guy like Rubin drops into round 6 which lets everyone know he wasn't as good as anyone thought he was to begin with.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
            How do you know that? You have no idea what was offered. From all accounts Jacksonville never offered us more then a 3rd rounder and the TB talks never even reached the point of talking compensation. Even Schefter acknowledged as much and he's usually spot on with his reporting. There were millions of reports flying during the draft but almost everyone is admitting now that he was not even close to being dealt because we never got a good offer. You can go listen to the ESPN guys, they aren't ripping us for keeping Taylor, they are ripping Jacksonville for not putting their 2nd rounder on the table for him. We never even got a halfway decent offer for him from all accounts so your just projecting what you thought we would have been able to get so we can land Grove but in reality you have no idea if we really had a chance to take him or not by trading JT. There's no way you can downgrade us for not getting Groves when it might not have even been feasible for us to land him. That makes no sense.

            If you would have asked me before the draft if I WANTED Rubin, then for sure I would have wanted him over most of our 2nd day picks, no questions asked. If you would have asked me if I thought we were going to GET Rubin, I would have said no way. I was not expecting him in this draft class. You can go to the running list of players I said we were targetting and we drafted a fair amount of them including Langford and Dotson on the DL. It's one thing for me to like a guy and want him but I definately was not expecting him and I think you have to tailor your grading based on realistic expectations. Realistically they were not targetting him and did not want him. I find it hard to fault a team for idenitifing the guys they want, and then going out and getting them and the Dolphins got exactly the guys they wanted as I had heard they had really liked Langford, Dotson, Murphy and Henne for weeks. You know for sure they met with Merling as he even said it and Parmele said Miami was in regular contact with him.

            As for Parmele, if a week ago you would have said we traded Booker and are going to take a RB, I would have been looking at him in the 4th round range. I would have taken him ahead of Murphy, ahead of Hillard, ahead of Arrington, Monk, Urrutia. I really, really love Parmele as a prospect. He was one of my favorite sleepers along with Dixon and Omon. Landing him to play ST and then take over as Ronnie's main backup next season I thought was a great move and I find no fault in taking him over anyone. The kid is a really good prospect.

            I just think you are projecting what you thought should happen instead of projecting what was realistic to happen. I knew this draft was going to be huge on the trenches and I knew which player the Dolphins had targetted. I am not at all surprised that we passed on Rubin or Arrington or any of those guy because we did not have them targetted. I was more surprised by us passing Dan Connor and Charles Godfrey in round 3 as they were targets of ours and both came to Miami to meet with us. But even then, I can't fault the Langford pick because I know how much the staff liked him and he went almost exactly where I had him on my personal board.

            I find on fault in targetting the guys you want and getting them pretty much spot on where their value says they should go. You shouldn't stray from your board because some guy like Rubin drops into round 6 which lets everyone know he wasn't as good as anyone thought he was to begin with.
            Joe,

            It is pretty obvious that we were asking for a #1, and were getting offers for #3's. It is not that hard to think that a compromise could have been reached on a #2.. I just think that Tuna was a little pig-headed and would not budge off of his price. When Jax saw this, they decided not to wait and traded for Harvey in rd 1. This killed his leverage and at that point, it was not worth them giving their #2 to get him...

            Your analogy of Rubin not being that good to begin with because he dropped does not fly. If that is the case, why did Parmele drop to round 6? He must not be that good either if you use that philosophy....... As far as I remember, his name did not come up one time on this board during the draft process.

            Look, I am not saying it was a bad draft, but I will definitely say it is not the perfect draft that you are describing. Taylor was a chip that could and should have been used and they blew it.. In a private moment, I think they would admit that they screwed up on that one...

            Comment


            • #51
              Well guys I was reading your draft grades and I have to give my opinion and that is I thought this was a great draft for the Dolphins. I didnt think Langford was a reach at all with his size and ideal frame to play end in the 3-4. Guys like Langford are so hard to find. Merling on the other hand will have to gain some weight again. I heard that he played at 288 but then lost a ton of weight preparing for the combine. I am pretty sure the weight will probably come back fairly easy and with an NFL style strengh and diet program he should be up to 290 in no time. He is a monster vs the run and that is a key thing to be good at being a 3-4 defensive end. I am very pleased with the way the draft turned out because Parcells had a plan and they executed it. Now as Joey stated we can focus on the other positions of need in next years draft. We needed to build through the trenches and that is what we accomplished in this draft so I am giving it an A! Also gotta give my Giants some love selecting Kenny Phillips. That pick really made my day.

              http://www.thestate.com/181/story/387873.html


              Great article on Philip Merling here guys. He really could be our Richard Seymour.
              Last edited by BigBlueCrew56; 04-29-2008, 01:05 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Quagmire View Post
                Joe,

                It is pretty obvious that we were asking for a #1, and were getting offers for #3's. It is not that hard to think that a compromise could have been reached on a #2.. I just think that Tuna was a little pig-headed and would not budge off of his price. When Jax saw this, they decided not to wait and traded for Harvey in rd 1. This killed his leverage and at that point, it was not worth them giving their #2 to get him...

                Your analogy of Rubin not being that good to begin with because he dropped does not fly. If that is the case, why did Parmele drop to round 6? He must not be that good either if you use that philosophy....... As far as I remember, his name did not come up one time on this board during the draft process.

                Look, I am not saying it was a bad draft, but I will definitely say it is not the perfect draft that you are describing. Taylor was a chip that could and should have been used and they blew it.. In a private moment, I think they would admit that they screwed up on that one...
                Parmele's name was never brought up on here because we had 3 RBs and no one thought we needed to draft one. And my analogy on Rubin is spot on. Rubin is a 3-4 NT. Those guys never, ever get underdrafted. There just isn't enough of them. They are always overdrafted. RBs on the other hand always drop. Hell look at AD last season, he was a clear cut top 3 talent and dropped to number 7. I think it's very fair to say Parmele was a good pick because his position tends to drop so we got good value on him. Guys are Rubin's position never drop, they always get reached for, yet still he fell a long ways from where we thought. Clearly it seems like he was not the prospect we thought he was.

                Again with JT. Your assuming that Jacksonville would compromise at a number 2. You have no idea. Fact is that the talks never even got near there. All we had on the table was a number 3. You can't say they should have traded JT for a number 2 and bash them for it when reports say they were never offered a number 2. I think your way overblowing the JT deal and trying to make it seems like some huge mistake for not dealing him.

                Fact of the matter is that he is still our best player and a huge influence in our clubhouse, you don't just give those guys away if your not getting the offer you want and by all accounts we were trying to deal him, but just didn't get the type of offer we were looking for. I can't fault the FO for not dealing their best player for a low offer. A 3 is not worth Taylor. And saying they should have compromised and dealt him for a 2 is rediculous cause you have no idea if that was even feasible. How do you know Jacksonville didn't say: "we offer a 3, take it or leave it but that all your getting"? You are blaming the FO and saying they mess up based strictly on your ASSUMPTION that they could have gotten a 2.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
                  Parmele's name was never brought up on here because we had 3 RBs and no one thought we needed to draft one. And my analogy on Rubin is spot on. Rubin is a 3-4 NT. Those guys never, ever get underdrafted. There just isn't enough of them. They are always overdrafted. RBs on the other hand always drop. Hell look at AD last season, he was a clear cut top 3 talent and dropped to number 7. I think it's very fair to say Parmele was a good pick because his position tends to drop so we got good value on him. Guys are Rubin's position never drop, they always get reached for, yet still he fell a long ways from where we thought. Clearly it seems like he was not the prospect we thought he was.

                  Again with JT. Your assuming that Jacksonville would compromise at a number 2. You have no idea. Fact is that the talks never even got near there. All we had on the table was a number 3. You can't say they should have traded JT for a number 2 and bash them for it when reports say they were never offered a number 2. I think your way overblowing the JT deal and trying to make it seems like some huge mistake for not dealing him.

                  Fact of the matter is that he is still our best player and a huge influence in our clubhouse, you don't just give those guys away if your not getting the offer you want and by all accounts we were trying to deal him, but just didn't get the type of offer we were looking for. I can't fault the FO for not dealing their best player for a low offer. A 3 is not worth Taylor. And saying they should have compromised and dealt him for a 2 is rediculous cause you have no idea if that was even feasible. How do you know Jacksonville didn't say: "we offer a 3, take it or leave it but that all your getting"? You are blaming the FO and saying they mess up based strictly on your ASSUMPTION that they could have gotten a 2.
                  Joe,

                  So NT's don't drop? Then I assume Okam, Dre Moore, Red Bryant all went in round 1? Players drop at every position. Saying Peterson dropping from #3 overall to #7 overall is not a valid comparison when you are talking about Jalen Parmele going from rd 4 to 6. Those guys don't belong in the same sentence!

                  You can preach all you want about assumptions. There is no way that when push came to shove, that a compromise for a #2 could not have been reached. You can say it all you want, it is incorrect. Deals are made all the time in this league on compromise. They tried to bully Jax into a #1 and it backfired.

                  This thing about him being such a great locker room guy is not going to fly either. Read the stuff that went on with Cameron last yr. He did not exactly have the coach's back.. Listen, I think he is a good guy who is frustrated with losing. But, if he feels he has been disrespected by the current regime, do you think he is going to sit quietly and do nothing? Think again. I am not saying he is going to turn into Chad Johnson, but he is going to be a distraction. They could have had this guy out of here, moved on and went forward with a bunch of guys that would "drink the kool-aid". Instead, they now have a guy who was here for the losing that does not want to be here. They should have traded him. As good as he has been, his value is going to do nothing but go down. As we watch Groves pile up double digit sacks, you will see that this should have been taken care of.....

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    NTs historically don't drop. RB's historically do drop. I'm not even gonna discuss that point with you because there no reason to. I'm sure you are capable of going up and looking up statistics in order to see that RBs fall. Teams don't value RBs in the draft anywhere near the way they value NTs for a 3-4 defense. You can ask this entire board and they will all say the same thing, so no need to be a smartass saying Moore, Okam and Bryant all should have gone in round 1. You know that was not what I meant. Stop trying to spin the words around.

                    Again, you can't say that a compromise could have been reached. You keep trying to force your assumption on that issue and I'm sorry but I'm not just gonna go assume that Jacksonville would have offered their 2nd just because you think they would have.

                    You pick selective topics to argue. You try to argue that historically the leagues trades are based on compromise but completely throw out the window that historically NTs have way more value in drafts then RBs. If your gonna look at history, look at it across the board, not just on the part that support your arguement.

                    Oh and again, you are saying we tried to bully Jax into giving us a number 1. You have no idea if that was the case. Like I said, go read the reports, we were not getting ripped for asking for a number 1, Jax was getting ripped by offering a number 3. By all indications Jax could very well have been doing the bullying while we were coming down on our offer. Fact is you don't know exactly what happened and ripping our FO based on assumptions is stupid.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
                      NTs historically don't drop. RB's historically do drop. I'm not even gonna discuss that point with you because there no reason to. I'm sure you are capable of going up and looking up statistics in order to see that RBs fall. Teams don't value RBs in the draft anywhere near the way they value NTs for a 3-4 defense. You can ask this entire board and they will all say the same thing, so no need to be a smartass saying Moore, Okam and Bryant all should have gone in round 1. You know that was not what I meant. Stop trying to spin the words around.

                      Again, you can't say that a compromise could have been reached. You keep trying to force your assumption on that issue and I'm sorry but I'm not just gonna go assume that Jacksonville would have offered their 2nd just because you think they would have.

                      You pick selective topics to argue. You try to argue that historically the leagues trades are based on compromise but completely throw out the window that historically NTs have way more value in drafts then RBs. If your gonna look at history, look at it across the board, not just on the part that support your arguement.

                      Oh and again, you are saying we tried to bully Jax into giving us a number 1. You have no idea if that was the case. Like I said, go read the reports, we were not getting ripped for asking for a number 1, Jax was getting ripped by offering a number 3. By all indications Jax could very well have been doing the bullying while we were coming down on our offer. Fact is you don't know exactly what happened and ripping our FO based on assumptions is stupid.
                      Joe,

                      Where did you read that the Dolphins were being realistic in asking for a #1 for Taylor? Go back and check the articles, reports, etc. People thought he was crazy to ask for a #1 for a 34 yr old DE. There is a time to play hardball. This was not one of those times. Compromise is not an assumption. The bottom line is they lost the poker game this time with Taylor and now you have a pissed off player who is losing trade value with every dance move he makes..... It isn't stupid. Stupid is assuming the Dolphins were realistic in asking for a #1 for a 34 yr old DE.

                      I am not being a smartass. You are the one who makes broad generalizations and has to always be right. The fact is NT's drop just like RB's. Even Wilfork dropped to the 20's the yr he came out and he may be the best NT around. Jamal Williams was a 2nd rd pick. Casey Hampton was a low #1. Kris Jenkins was a #3.

                      I just think that you feel this regime can do no wrong and you look at everything they do with rose-colored glasses. They can screw up and in this case they did.........

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Maybe the reason the trade didn't get done is because they didn't want to compromise. We wanted a first, they only wanted to give up a 3rd, so there was a stalemate. I think that the compromise argument goes out the window in that case, and IMO that's what happened.

                        BTW, can't forget about Rubin, he dropped to the 6th. I still can't believe that. And we still didn't get him! Unbelievable!

                        Dolphins Dream Draft: 1. Jaylon Smith 2. Artie Burns 3. Landon Turner

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Quagmire View Post
                          Joe,

                          Where did you read that the Dolphins were being realistic in asking for a #1 for Taylor? Go back and check the articles, reports, etc. People thought he was crazy to ask for a #1 for a 34 yr old DE. There is a time to play hardball. This was not one of those times. Compromise is not an assumption. The bottom line is they lost the poker game this time with Taylor and now you have a pissed off player who is losing trade value with every dance move he makes..... It isn't stupid. Stupid is assuming the Dolphins were realistic in asking for a #1 for a 34 yr old DE.

                          I am not being a smartass. You are the one who makes broad generalizations and has to always be right. The fact is NT's drop just like RB's. Even Wilfork dropped to the 20's the yr he came out and he may be the best NT around. Jamal Williams was a 2nd rd pick. Casey Hampton was a low #1. Kris Jenkins was a #3.

                          I just think that you feel this regime can do no wrong and you look at everything they do with rose-colored glasses. They can screw up and in this case they did.........

                          Wilfork when he came out was not a can't miss prospect. He was drafted right where everyone thought he would be drafted. He absolutely did not drop. You think just because a NT doesn't go in the top 10 that he dropped. That is not the case. Like I said I'm not getting into that discussion with you, you can go around and ask anyone on here, what position is more likely to get overdrafted and which position is more likely to drop. You'll see what anwsers you get.


                          Again, your assuming that it was the Dolphins that didn't compromise. How do you know it was the Jags that would not compromise in their offer of a 3rd round pick? That's right you don't know. Your just making those claims to back your arguement. You have no idea what really happened to you cannot blame the FO for a situation that you have no idea if they could have even done anything about.

                          BTW...What is this JT is unhappy talk? I mean for Christ sake man, this is JT we are talking about, not Chad Johnson or TO. JT has never once openly said anything bad about the Dolphins. He has never ever publicly demanded to be traded. He still showed up at Dolphins camp even during his Dancing with the Stars. All he has done is asked to be traded to a winning team. That's it. If he doesn't get dealt I promise you he will do what he always does, he will act like a professional, show up to work everyday and play good football. Your crazy if your expecting JT to suddenly turn into Chad Johnson and be a locker room cancer. He was put thru 1-15 last year and still was a good character guy and very professional, you think that now with the team suddenly making some good moves and looking to turn things around that he would pull a TO and mess up the locker room chemistry? Get real man.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Memorex View Post
                            Look at this freak QB that we got as an UDFA!!!

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfVreEXJM4

                            I'm guessing he will be trying out as a WR or KR seeing he is a whopping 5'9 165
                            The play he made at the 1 minute mark was just sick, this guy has enough talent to earn a roster spot at least, I'd let him return punts with the way he moves.





                            Originally posted by Scott Wright
                            I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
                              The play he made at the 1 minute mark was just sick, this guy has enough talent to earn a roster spot at least, I'd let him return punts with the way he moves.
                              Agreed. That video is pretty nasty. I definitely wouldn't mind him back there on punts just as long as he can take the hits on the next level being that small. This would take some pressure off Ginn for sure. I still want Ginn back there a lot of time though because he is our real playmaker and maybe the fastest man in the league.

                              Dolphins Dream Draft: 1. Jaylon Smith 2. Artie Burns 3. Landon Turner

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by thebow305 View Post
                                Agreed. That video is pretty nasty. I definitely wouldn't mind him back there on punts just as long as he can take the hits on the next level being that small. This would take some pressure off Ginn for sure. I still want Ginn back there a lot of time though because he is our real playmaker and maybe the fastest man in the league.
                                Ginn's flat out straight line speed will force us to keep him as our main kick returner. He broke a couple nice run backs of kickoffs last year. He struggled on punt returns because he was not great in the short area. If this new kid can handle the PR while leaving Ginn to do just some kick returning and better himself as a WR, I think it's a good move. Ginn absolutely has to be on kick returns tho. He's just too good when he gets that full head of steam going foward.

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