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  • Originally posted by Rosebud View Post
    I'm with on you're first two points but I wouldn't trade Dougie for Sessions, at least not until the new CBA makes it impossible for us to get a 3rd max cat. Next summer is the next time we'll have any cap space to play with, so for now we need to stay as flexible as we can and hope the CBA lets us make as big of a splash as we can. From there we can start taking on long term contracts for role players to round out the team, but this year we can't go out acquire long term contracts.

    I still think we need a Center to pair with Turiaf, Harrelson and Jordan in our Center by committee, but I'm comfortable with our back court. Billups, Dougie, Shumpert and Fields is a good group to go with Melo and Stat in the front court. We'll be weak at center again this season, but our perimeter D should be better and our o shouldn't sputter like it did last postseason when Amar'e went down. Next year we get to make a big splash and hopefully at that point we'll be true contenders or at least just some tweaks away from contending. Right now we're still to young around our big 3.
    I easily would trade Dougie for Sessions. I am not worried about Sessions contract cause even with the 2012 plan you can still move Sessions after he improves his value under D'antoni. Just look at what happened recently with Felton. Felton's value got pumped enough for us to be able to make the Melo deal. I think the same can be done with Sessions.

    Sessions is a much better PG then Douglas and we need someone who can actually come off the bench and run a pick and roll something that Toney still is struggling with.

    Also you got a center to add to the committee with Samardo Samuels. I think it is the best deal to make for us right now and it doesn't have a huge negative affect that they can not be moved either during the deadline or before FA.

    Our perimeter D is still going to be blehhh especially with Billups.
    Last edited by LTgiants; 06-26-2011, 05:59 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Rosebud View Post
      Because Jared Jeffries, Ronny Turiaf, Iman Shumpert and Raja Bell are such offensive dynamo's? Yeah, mike won't play guys who disrupt our own offense, but all a defender needs to do to satisfy mike is not chuck up stupid shots, not try too do too much and pass the ball to someone who's not offensively useless. He's a smart coach, he knows how he wants to play, and given who our stars are it's not a bad call, but the people who ***** about him not caring about D are stupid, he does, he's just not as adept at coaching it as he is offense. Then again that'll probably change once he wins his first ring because Rick Carlisle's defenses where a joke with Detroit just 7 years ago and now he's getting credit as one of the best coaches in the league.
      Getting some defensive specialists on the team and coaching defense are 2 completely different things. Everyone who has been around D'Antoni has always stated that he needs a defensive assistant to coach defense bc he doesn't coach it.

      Kerr had to force him to coach defense in practices bc he never did. Just watch the Knicks play d and you can see how painfully obvious it is that they don't practice defense. They don't even bump guys to the basket. It's a clear lane every time followed by Stat or Turiaf just trying to swat it at the hoop. Now one clogs any lanes, no help defense, no switches, nothing. Guys don't even box out for rebounds. It's sad.

      Fundamentals on defense are severely lacking on our team. And D'Antoni is absolutely to blame for that.

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      • Originally posted by bigbluedefense
        For 58 million though? That's the part that's killing me. I think this is a good move only if we can grab Felton.

        My feelings exactly. Doesn't help that I'm a big Billups fan as well.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LTgiants
          We did overpay him about 4 or 5 million per year. He is also does have a history of under performing after getting a big contract in Chicago. Hopefully he plays up to his deal cause as it has been said by millions on paper he fills a huge need.

          I am worried though. Cause we have no PG and not the greatest depth behind Chandler if his toe ends up being a problem again.
          Tyson Chandler is absolutely worth more than 9-10 million dollars a year. 9-10 million is a fair salary for someone like Emeka Okafor. Ty is worth at least 12....he was the 2nd most important player on a title winner for God's sake.

          He underperformed for one year (the first) in the previous contract you mentioned. For the vast majority of that deal, his healthy years were very good and he capped it off with a great year in Dallas (not his best statistical output either). Now, injuries are absolutely a concern and the contract is a risk for that reason, but he has always been a double-double machine and defensive leader when healthy (just look at his numbers when he plays over 70 games.) You make it sound like he played poorly when healthy. That just hasn't been the case over the last 5 years.

          When you take injuries out of the equation, I don't see how 14 million per doesn't make Chandler appropriately paid. Now, with the injuries, 12 is more appropriate, but centers are at a premium and he could have made even more elsewhere.

          Honestly, I take Chandler over Nene and I don't think people would ***** over Nene getting 14 million. Nene has injury concerns as well, is an awful rebounder for a big man, and doesn't protect the rim very well at all. If there are 2 things I want from my center they are rebounding and protection of the rim, especially with Amare there to fill it up on the offensive end. A healthy Ty gives you that in spades.
          When I eat, it is the food that is scared.

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          • Originally posted by Rob S View Post
            Tyson Chandler is absolutely worth more than 9-10 million dollars a year. 9-10 million is a fair salary for someone like Emeka Okafor. Ty is worth at least 12....he was the 2nd most important player on a title winner for God's sake.

            He underperformed for one year (the first) in the previous contract you mentioned. For the vast majority of that deal, his healthy years were very good and he capped it off with a great year in Dallas (not his best statistical output either). Now, injuries are absolutely a concern and the contract is a risk for that reason, but he has always been a double-double machine and defensive leader when healthy (just look at his numbers when he plays over 70 games.) You make it sound like he played poorly when healthy. That just hasn't been the case over the last 5 years.

            When you take injuries out of the equation, I don't see how 14 million per doesn't make Chandler appropriately paid. Now, with the injuries, 12 is more appropriate, but centers are at a premium and he could have made even more elsewhere.

            Honestly, I take Chandler over Nene and I don't think people would ***** over Nene getting 14 million. Nene has injury concerns as well, is an awful rebounder for a big man, and doesn't protect the rim very well at all. If there are 2 things I want from my center they are rebounding and protection of the rim, especially with Amare there to fill it up on the offensive end. A healthy Ty gives you that in spades.
            I just feel 14 million is a little too much. Felt like we overpaid just cause we got word that Chris Paul situation was not going to happen so we just throw all our money at Tyson.

            Even if we take your premise of he is worth 12 million we still overpaid. We lost our PG and our backup center in the process of signing him due to his large contract. This is a team especially now with the shortened season that needs depth. Salary cap wise it cost us our use of the amnesty and the MLE.

            His best years are when he has good Pg's and we don't have one. He was not the great in Charlotte and that was with Raymond Felton as his PG. I am not trying to make it sound like he was a scrub for 5 years but I dont feel you should just reward a guy with the massive contract based on him having a bounce back year.

            He is not a double double machine that is a exaggeration. He did that once with Chris Paul. Also to the 2nd most important player in the finals part ya I agree he was. However you can make arguments for other players for that honor as well.

            I am rooting for him to do well here but I have my concern's.

            Comment


            • "A little too much" isn't a strong argument in basketball. You have to pay good players with size a lot in this league. Once we realized CP3 was not possible, we went out and got arguably the most influential piece we could have in order to improve the team.

              D'Antoni is already talking about making this a more defensive-minded team, and running the offense through Melo. If Chandler stays healthy, our frontcourt is going to DEVOUR the others in the East. It's not a bad strategy at all.

              It's bittersweet because this signing ensures that we won't get DH12 or CP3 (unless we trade Amare), but I think you are undervaluing Chandler a bit. We are currently a top-4 team in the East (and if we just had Billups and Turiaf, one or both would've gotten injured and we'd be featuring Toney Douglas AND Jared Jeffries in starter's roles...)

              Chandler was the MAIN ADDITION that took the Mavs from a playoff team to a legitimate title contender. 7-foot shot-blockers/elite rebounders are extremely valuable. He's also apparently a GREAT teammate and leader, which might help guys like Douglas and Shumpert from the getgo - we were pretty much a glued together macaroni project by the playoffs last year. Now we have some stable veteran leadership with BIG GAME experience leading us from training camp.

              I wish it was CP3, but I like this move because it improves the team and having cap room for next summer would just allow us to sign a guy like Chandler, nothing better - because Melo/STAT deals are too big for a third max contract + worthwhile role players...

              Here's to hoping Toney Douglas can step his game up just a little... (or maybe Baron Davis...) until Nash in 2012? Eh? Um. IDK.
              Last edited by gpngc; 12-10-2011, 12:34 PM.
              "I'm Ko Simpson!"

              - Ko Simpson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by gpngc View Post
                "A little too much" isn't a strong argument in basketball. You have to pay good players with size a lot in this league. Once we realized CP3 was not possible, we went out and got arguably the most influential piece we could have in order to improve the team.

                D'Antoni is already talking about making this a more defensive-minded team, and running the offense through Melo. If Chandler stays healthy, our frontcourt is going to DEVOUR the others in the East. It's not a bad strategy at all.

                It's bittersweet because this signing ensures that we won't get DH12 or CP3 (unless we trade Amare), but I think you are undervaluing Chandler a bit. We are currently a top-4 team in the East (and if we just had Billups and Turiaf, one or both would've gotten injured and we'd be featuring Toney Douglas AND Jared Jeffries in starter's roles...)

                Chandler was the MAIN ADDITION that took the Mavs from a playoff team to a legitimate title contender. 7-foot shot-blockers/elite rebounders are extremely valuable. He's also apparently a GREAT teammate and leader, which might help guys like Douglas and Shumpert from the getgo - we were pretty much a glued together macaroni project by the playoffs last year. Now we have some stable veteran leadership with BIG GAME experience leading us from training camp.

                I wish it was CP3, but I like this move because it improves the team.

                Here's to hoping Toney Douglas can step his game up just a little... (or maybe Baron Davis...) until Nash in 2012? Eh? Um. IDK.
                I was just stating my personal opinion on the contract. I know the centers usually get overpaid that isn't a issue with me.

                I see that the team still has holes to fill and now has limited ways to fill them now in order to improve the team to make it a legitimate contender.

                I am not a D'antoni hater. I actually do like him as a coach for the most part but he is always saying things like that about defense. They sound good on paper for us fans but they usually don't translate as well on the court.

                Hopefully Coach Woodson helps that we will see against a Celtic team that added about like 3 forwards yesterday. You need a pg Melo is a underrated passer and all but you still need a pg to run the offense.

                I am not undervaluing Chandler on the court at all. my concerns are more about things like can he perform up to the deal and can he stay healthy.

                On the court I love the fact we got a a guy who plays D is a shot blocker and a guy i know can rebound. I know he can score in the post but I know we need a pg at some point for those patented Chandler alley oops.

                Comment


                • There's always a chance that it doesn't work out. And I AM a D'Antoni hater because I believe in defense. Still, I have to hope that this shift in philosophy does take place. It's possible, especially with the personnel we have and Woodson.

                  Staying healthy is ALWAYS the "if" with big contracts - I'm with you on that one.

                  I just don't mind "over"paying because what else could we have done with that money? The argument that paints a picture of a better alternative - that I'd want to discuss... I honestly just don't know if there is one...
                  "I'm Ko Simpson!"

                  - Ko Simpson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by gpngc View Post
                    There's always a chance that it doesn't work out. And I AM a D'Antoni hater because I believe in defense. Still, I have to hope that this shift in philosophy does take place. It's possible, especially with the personnel we have and Woodson.

                    Staying healthy is ALWAYS the "if" with big contracts - I'm with you on that one.

                    I just don't mind "over"paying because what else could we have done with that money? The argument that paints a picture of a better alternative - that I'd want to discuss... I honestly just don't know if there is one...
                    I certainty don't have a better alternative plan or options to present that are better then Chandler. I accept the fact that Chandler is our Center and am now more focused on what we can add with him. I just feel he got a little too much for my personal taste.

                    I believe in defense but I also believe in a offense. Hopefully with the two headed monster we can have both and if we do then I will do this dance.



                    Cause it has been years since the Knicks have had both.

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                    • BTW guys, if I understand this correctly, we have the MLE since this was a sign and trade.
                      When I eat, it is the food that is scared.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rob S View Post
                        BTW guys, if I understand this correctly, we have the MLE since this was a sign and trade.
                        We only have the room exception. We don't have the MLE after amnestying Chauncey to go under the cap.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by LTgiants View Post
                          We only have the room exception. We don't have the MLE after amnestying Chauncey to go under the cap.
                          This is true. Hollinger effed up in his article earlier today. He has since changed it haha.
                          When I eat, it is the food that is scared.

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                          • I've seen rambling about us possibly adding Barea and Crawford. Barea would be an upgrade over Bibby, but I still wouldn't be enthused about giving him a multi-year deal to be our starting PG. You know what you get with Crawford, you're gonna get somebody who can score with little defense to go with it. I actually don't dislike this as much as I did earlier today. I think he could actually be a very solid asset coming off the bench as a sixth man, with Landry starting at the 2.

                            Comment


                            • Bibby sucks hopefully we add Barea or Baron Davis. Cause Bibby at best should only be the 3rd pg on your depth chart.

                              The Crawford story I hope to god does not end up happening unless he is stupid enough to take the vet minimum. I don't want to end up trading Douglas for Crawford and end up wasting our only exception this year on him

                              Comment


                              • Well, I saw some progress on defense. Still have a lot of work to do. Our ball movement is horrible, we need a PG in the worst way.

                                I like Shumpert. Getting hurt sucks, we'll miss his versatility. But our PG situation is awful, we need a PG in the worst way.

                                Having Melo is huge bc we finally have a closer. We haven't had a closer in a long time.

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