Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2009 Draft: Who/What Positions are we Drafting?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    For the list you have up there hcbrad DE, S, RT, and ILB I can definitely see as positions in need of some talent. Not sure if that list is in order or not but if it is there are a few things I would change.

    Nose tackle makes sense as well but I have difficulty seeing us address it very early in the draft. I wouldn't particularly mind but Jinx has been a monster so we more need a guy that's can project to be a starter down the road and provide depth for now. Round 3-ish seems about right unless a very good value presents itself, but that almost never happens with nose tackles because it's so hard to find them. Almost always a reach pick.

    Right tackle is a similar situation although I'd prefer to go in that direction because a good RT we draft could step in and start with Woody shifting over to RG and just improving the overall depth and talent of our offensive line. No nose tackle that we draft would be a starter.

    The one I fail to understand as a need over a WR for example is RB. We have two very capable backs running behind a solid line and Jones is not showing any signs of needing to be replaced next season. The way I see it, RB, while I'd love a nice bruiser which we don't have, is a position that you can plug a guy in year 1 and have success with him. Look at all of the rookie backs having great years, it's probably the easiest position to transition into from college given you have a solid supporting cast. Wideouts on the other hand tend to take a couple of years, typically three. Given Coles is not going to play forever, it probably makes sense to take his successor sometime soon and give him some time to develop before he has the responsibility of starting. Meanwhile, given we have no consistant #3 WR threat (not including Keller) and no solid looking potential starters on the roster the guy could play some early and learn from some solid vets. Just seems like the right move, not one the Eagles would make because all of their WR's are crap, but one that would make sense regardless of whatever depth we have.

    Comment


    • #17
      I agree that we can definitely hold off on rb. Even if TJ does start to decline, which I'm not sure he will because of his lack of wear and tear early in his career, we still have leon. I'm not saying leon can be a feature back, I'm saying we already have a young guy that can be half of a rb tandem. So basically, we can just grab a big mid/late round guy this year or next.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by josh07039 View Post
        I agree that we can definitely hold off on rb. Even if TJ does start to decline, which I'm not sure he will because of his lack of wear and tear early in his career, we still have leon. I'm not saying leon can be a feature back, I'm saying we already have a young guy that can be half of a rb tandem. So basically, we can just grab a big mid/late round guy this year or next.
        Thats exactly what I want to do. A couple guys I like this year are Shonn Greene and Charles Scott. They'll probably both go earlier than I'd like to take a guy, though.

        On a seperate note, a guy I like as a safety that may be there in the earlier mid-rounds depending on how much he rises is David Bruton of Notre Dame. Anybody else seen this guy at all? The little I was able to catch he looked very solid.

        Also this isn't completely draft related but definitely could be. What do you think we do with Barton after the season? He's a UFA I believe, so whether or not we sign him (and how long) could be a huge factor in what our needs are come draft day because if he goes elsewhere we'll obviously need a new ILB to start next to Harris. Depending on how long we sign him too, we may need to groom a guy.

        Comment


        • #19
          Im sorry but I completely disagree with your approach to the draft and positions...Coles is not all but done, Cotchery is better than good he makes big plays and can get YAC...

          Conversely I think RB needs to be addressed not for poor play but because TJ is over 30 even though he's not run down and Leon has not shown he can be an everydown back...I would love to see him get more touches but not be our feature back... Now when Jesse Chatman was suspended who was our backup RB?

          Look at the Giants...If we had stuck with D. Ward we would have a ridiculous 3 back group and a back for the future...The Giants have Jacobs, Bradshaw and Ward... Not to mention Danny Ware!

          Also RB who can get 250 + touches are more valuable to a franchise than WRs who busst more than RBs do.

          We also need to bolster the trenches bc thats how you build long term success.
          That would help our pass defense much more than a CB. We have a one dimensional DL and need to make it so we can rush fewer players and apply pass pressure while maintaining our rush defense up front (aka keep those same moving parts..Coleman, Jenkins and Ellis)
          Last edited by hcbrad08; 11-22-2008, 04:22 PM.
          QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

          Exactly Why The Jets were the Coolest Team in the NFL under Rex, but Bowles is the man-see Arians speech:

          http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...x-in-town.html


          http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...e-for-you.html

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by hcbrad08 View Post
            Im sorry but I completely disagree with your approach to the draft and positions...Coles is not all but done, Cotchery is better than good he makes big plays and can get YAC...

            Wideouts take three years to develop, and Cotchery is good but will seriously struggle without Coles in the lineup. Do you really think Coles has 4 years left after this season? Because I sure don't.

            Conversely I think RB needs to be addressed not for poor play but because TJ is over 30 even though he's not run down and Leon has not shown he can be an everydown back...I would love to see him get more touches but not be our feature back... Now when Jesse Chatman was suspended who was our backup RB?

            The position can be addressed when the need presents itself because backs come into the league and don't have an adjustment like WR's do. In the mid-rounds, fine. But early it makes no sense. We don't need a starter at the moment. If Jones gets injured we're in trouble, but you can say the same thing for any position. Draft a bruiser in the mid-rounds and that suffices...for now.

            Look at the Giants...If we had stuck with D. Ward we would have a ridiculous 3 back group and a back for the future...The Giants have Jacobs, Bradshaw and Ward... Not to mention Danny Ware!

            The Giants success stems from their system and offensive line IMO, not the backs. Our system and offensive line are starting to improve and therefore we don't need to waste an early pick on a back. The Giants have what, a fourth rounder, two sevenths, and an undrafted guy? Further proving my point that you don't need to address RB early to have a successful run game.

            Also RB who can get 250 + touches are more valuable to a franchise than WRs who busst more than RBs do.

            What does busting have to do with value to a franchise? The point is that a WR takes more time to develop than a RB. And again I will argue, if a team has a good system the backs don't have all that much value. Look at teams like the Chiefs when they were good, the Steelers now, and the Giants like you used before. They have success with multiple backs because they run such a good system. A good WR that can stretch the field, take the pressure off the run game, and make big plays is harder to find and therefore more valuable IMO than a back that can have success in a good system.

            We also need to bolster the trenches bc thats how you build long term success.
            That would help our pass defense much more than a CB. We have a one dimensional DL and need to make it so we can rush fewer players and apply pass pressure while maintaining our rush defense up front (aka keep those same moving parts..Coleman, Jenkins and Ellis)

            Finally somewhere that we agree. The trenches are incredibly important. For example, a solid offensive line takes pressure off of the RB position and makes it so that you can have success with multiple backs. I agree that our defensive line is also in need of an upgrade. However, the CB example you use is pretty pointless and your rushing fewer players example only makes so much sense. Obviously if you rush fewer guys you can stick more guys in coverage but with a pass rush as successful as ours guys should be able to make plays on the ball when the QB doesn't have much time to throw and they can't so upgrades are obviously necessary. And our only need at CB is for a nickel guy that can cover slot guys on short routes that we get burned consistantly on and where pass rush, no matter how good, doesn't really matter.
            My thoughts in bold.

            Comment


            • #21
              Neither RB or WR should be drafted before the 3rd round...Both are solid for 3 years at least and yes I think Coles could be playing in 4 years. At his level not necc but lets remember hes 31 not 37...I think there are Leon Washington's to be found every year at WR and RB...We don't need a Nickle CB enough to draft the position early. My point is that there are less busts in the trenches early on...If we are in a position where we aren't going to draft any starters we need to identify the positions where we are aging AND lack depth not just the former. If we can take safer picks early and then take a little risk later with higher reward we can maintain success and consistency at positions that really affect Wins and Losses. If Coles goes down we have Cotchery who showed that he is more of a great 2 than just ok 1 last season but last season he didnt have Keller and Stuckey in the lineup to fill in. If we lose Ellis and have to rely on Mosley and DeVito we will get beaten up on D. If we lose Jenkins FORGET the season.

              I think this draft is TOP HEAVY in terms of trenchmen. If we have the chance to upgrade and get people who can contribute at RT ILB DE or NT. I think we take it and if we don't my point is that RB and WR are about equal in terms of how set we are at those positions but if you take away TJ as opposed to LC we are screwed. Im not saying losing LC isnt big but we can play without him without TJ our offense is predicatable and lacks any depth at RB.

              The only trench position I would have a problem drafting early is RT UNLESS Damien Woody will not be back bc if we take any other trench position beside RT they can contribute whereas an early pick of an OL doesn't necc allow for playing time and merit a good investment. I could also see NT early (2nd round if Raji is impressive enough bc Jenkins unlike a guy like Wilfork is not in 3 downs consistently and personally I would love to have a more formidable NT (tandem). Taking Raji sets up a successor for Jenkins allows us to play a 4 man front if we feel so inclined and can keep Jenkins rested if he needs it without sacrificing as much as we do with Pouha. Same goes for DE or ILB. (Those could be even earlier-1st if Laurianitus is on the board...I don't love him but I think the Jets like OSUs LB core and coach)

              I disagree with your assesment of WRs and taking 3 years to develop...maybe your confusing them with, QBs?

              Eddie Royal, Desean Jackson, Donnie Avery.

              WR can come in without being in camp and as Keyshawn Johnson likes to say run the 9 they can go deep or run curls and still contribute. I think the same goes for RBs bc they can come in and help right away, but to say WRs dont play well or reach their full potential until 4 years in thats a ludicris statement- arguably you could say no one reaches their "potential" until their 4th season.

              Finally, and I think it bares repeating WRs bust constantly if we take one it should be late like JC. AND RB who would be #3 back who adds his own wrinkle would be a late round as well (as we search for another value liek Leon) we prevent a bust and a big money commitment to a skil position that we really don't need.

              If you don't think SS, DE, NT, and ILB are more important than RB and WR then I don't think we're watching the same team... If you are just arguing that I chose to put a low need position (RB) in front of another low need position (WR) for reasons that many people would yield to (WR bust more, the further away from the trenches you are the less important you are, theres more dpeth at WR for the Jets than RB) then I think you are just arguing semantics.
              Last edited by hcbrad08; 11-23-2008, 03:07 AM.
              QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

              Exactly Why The Jets were the Coolest Team in the NFL under Rex, but Bowles is the man-see Arians speech:

              http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...x-in-town.html


              http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...e-for-you.html

              Comment


              • #22
                I told you that I agreed with you trenches are more important. Not sure if you meant the only trench position you have trouble taking early out of the needs you outlined is RT or if overall it's RT, but I'd have trouble with a LT or C for sure. How would you feel about a guard?

                As far as WR's taking time to develop I stand by what I said. You gave me three examples of guys this draft that are producing, none of them are producing at an elite level, and all can significantly improve their games. There are exceptions to every rule. You asked if I was thinking of QB's, I give you Matt Ryan. If you look at their stats year 3 or 4 and compare them to their rookie year I believe you will see improvement. Some guys can step in and play right away, and some aren't able to. But all will improve over the course of their first few seasons because it's a difficult position to adjust to at the pro level. I'm not the only person that thinks this, either. You say you're more comfortable with a RB not busting because WR's bust all the time, but RB's definitely bust as well, don't last as long in the league, and I believe have less value because their success largely depends on the offensive line. Plus they can be found in the mid-rounds. Wideouts certainly can too, but I just don't like taking backs early no matter what the circumstances.

                As far as semantics, yeah I thought I made it pretty clear in my original post that I was talking semantics. Your original list was a nice list, my opinion was that WR is a bigger need than RB, and that's that pretty much. You disagree and that's fine. We do agree that the lines on both side could use some depth and talent, so hopefully we focus on that in the draft next year. I'm not by any means advocating taking a WR early in this draft. But depending on the guy, I could see the logic behind it moreso than I could see the logic behind taking a RB early.


                Clearly we have a difference of opinion on the WR vs. RB thing but since neither of us thinks its all that critical hopefully we can just move on from that and talk some other positions.

                Three things I disagree with in your initial paragraph. One is that we should draft trench guys because they bust less than other positions early on. I personally think the trenches are more important and create success for your skill guys, which is why you draft them early on. But you make the move because it most improves your team, not because there's a lower bust factor. Trenches are nice because they help you in both facets of the game on both sides of the ball. Pass rush helps pass D defensively and the trenches obviously support the run game. Offensively you give your QB more time to throw while opening up holes in the run game. Kill two birds with one stone, I love it. If you want a high-level talent at a position you go there early. Another one is I think you have a little too much faith in our WR core. We have depth but it's 2 starters and a lot of slot guys. Keller's great but he's not going to fill in for an injured WR and a starting corner is going to eat any of our other guys alive. Just an opinion there. Finally, the nickel corner thing. If you look at how Buster Davis ate us alive in the Chargers game. Steve Breaston against Arizona. How we put Revis on Welker against the Pats just so he didn't kill us. I don't think we need one enough to go there first round simply because it's not a starting position (although with the prevalence of 3 WR sets in the league it's getting there). But it's one of our top 3 or 4 non-depth needs on defense. We have a major weakness there.

                Your second paragraph I agree with. Only thing I have to say there is I think we can find a competent replacement for TJ later in the draft than we can for LC. Good backup runners (that can develop into starters in the right situation) can be found in the fourth round or so relatively consistantly if you have a good system. You're going to have a harder time finding a starting WR in the fourth, especially one that's going to be able to start right away. That's how I see it, at least.

                Third paragraph I agree with and the rest of it I think I pretty much covered, at least if I wanted to go there.

                Just so you can see whether or not our opinion differs on needs here's my take:

                DE
                ILB
                NT
                S
                CB (nickel)
                RT
                WR
                RB

                I had trouble placing both secondary positions in there but that's my best shot at it. I could see right tackle moving up if we decide to kick Woody inside and start him instead of Moore. Wouldn't mind flipping it with CB either. Safety could drop significantly if Elam's level of play stays high and he proves he's a legit starting option, could rise significantly if he isn't. Inside linebacker will be at the top of the list if Barton leaves in FA and we don't find a replacement. If we don't go WR early (which I don't think is necessary but could understand) I'd rather not go there at all. On the other hand I'd like a back in the mid-rounds. There's a lot of football to be played and free agency to go through but there's my shot at it. Tear it to shreds.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Any player who comes into the league will be better in their 4th than their 1st barring injury AND any player who is a play maker in his 1st season is rare regardless of position. That was my point and I think your point is well taken on RB depending on OL but my point was our OL is good at run blocking this year and should continue to do so...hence less prospect of a bust...again im not trying to convince you bc i think you belive wr a bigger need im just stating my reasoning...BIG WIN Arguably the most complete team in the AFC.
                  QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

                  Exactly Why The Jets were the Coolest Team in the NFL under Rex, but Bowles is the man-see Arians speech:

                  http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...x-in-town.html


                  http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...e-for-you.html

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I will try to be brief about my remarks so I'll do bullets.
                    1.I think you should always draft in the trenches. Every draft you need to keep retooling your line depth a bit. A guy or two for each. There is a fine line between being a grizzled veteran line and an old line.
                    2. We really need depth at linebacker, especially if we lose Barton. Harris being injured has really exposed our mlb depth specifically and our general linebacker.
                    3. Even if LC does play another 4 years I'm not sure he'll be useful. He is 31, but his style of play and the amount of shots he takes has to be considered in planing for the future.
                    4. I'll say it again. I don't like early runningbacks. You don't need a great runningback to have a good running game. Good Oline+ A well conceived committee=great running game.
                    5. The way this team has played, barring any injury or something crazy, I think we can decide on a few positions of need and go with BPA.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Cannot say I disagree with anything that you said there. Another thing that I think bears keeping in mind is that the most likely scenario for us is making the playoffs and not winning to the Super Bowl. Provided that happens and Favre comes back (not a stretch) we will have a pretty short window to get a ring. That being the case, a position that could have an immediate impact on the team be it as a starter or a significant role player that adds a new element to the team while potentially providing at the least a future starter is the kind of direction we may want to go in early. Allows us to improve as a team immediately while not quite sacrificing the future to do so.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Any1 know of a mid-round rb that could possibly eventually replace T. Jones? Because isn't he approaching 30? Which some of the greats couldn't overcome.

                        Any way this i how I'd go.

                        1) D-Line
                        2) QB (depends on favre I guess tho)
                        3) WR
                        4) Safety/Nickel Back

                        1/2 might as well be switchable cause of favre
                        Jets, Mets, Knicks, and the U's too cool for uze

                        Sig by, Hitman D

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Too many people have us taking a back that doesnt complement Leon Washington (who MUST be resigned after this year).

                          I want Shonn Greene in Green and White :twisted:


                          http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/...ad.php?t=27222
                          That guys mock i like:

                          1st : B.J. Raji - NG/DE (3-4) - Boston College
                          2nd : Jasper Brinkley - ILB - South Carolina

                          Someone to spell Jenkins is a huge need.
                          Can never have too many LB's in the 3-4

                          Would like a WR to replace Coles.
                          Still on the Brett Ratliff bandwagon from pre-season.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Kenny Britt.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Everyone has us taking Moreno in the first.

                              Not like anyone is right, but!
                              Why choose a back that similar to Washington. If anything we need a big bruiser.

                              Not to mention i think Jones will do fine next year like he is doing this year. So a RB in the first round seems totally unnecessary. Please correct me if im wrong.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ManOverboard View Post
                                Kenny Britt.
                                100% absolutley yes.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X

                                Debug Information