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  • #16
    Originally posted by josh07039 View Post
    I'm not too worried about the argument that we will not have depth because we keep giving up draft picks. I think that if you scout well, it doesn't matter whether someone is a day 2 pick or undrafted, you will find talent.
    I will disagree to this extent. In a lot of cases, there just isn't that NFL caliber talent in the UDFA crop. Even when teams find a gem, they find at most 1. Pittsburgh found Willie Parker in 2003 as a UDFA, but thats all they found. When Dallas got Tony Romo as a UDFA, but who else did they get as UDFA's that year? If the Jets are relying on a UDFA class like that, they're in a lot of trouble.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Crickett View Post
      I will disagree to this extent. In a lot of cases, there just isn't that NFL caliber talent in the UDFA crop. Even when teams find a gem, they find at most 1. Pittsburgh found Willie Parker in 2003 as a UDFA, but thats all they found. When Dallas got Tony Romo as a UDFA, but who else did they get as UDFA's that year? If the Jets are relying on a UDFA class like that, they're in a lot of trouble.
      I still think we're going to be finding low-priced veterans to fill the role on the team that 5th, 6th, 7th round guys would have. They're proven, and you end up cutting half of the later round guys anyway. Point taken though, it's absolutely tough to rely on a UDFA class even if you probably would have drafted some of those guys if you had the picks.

      At this point there's really nothing left to do than to see if this strategy works, but I absolutely agree that depth is an issue right now. The one thing I do think, though, is that there are other ways to find depth than late-round picks. And those guys generally end up being more proven players. I think, provided our rookies don't cost too much, we're going to be raiding the waiver wire throughout the rest of the offseason to help the depth. Rotoworld said the Giants are going to be cutting some early 30's backup swing G/C guy soon, wouldn't be shocked if we start giving guys like that looks.

      The one other thing this method does help is to prevent reaches. I'd bet that given we had over three full rounds between our second and third picks, we had Slauson rated higher than a sixth rounder. We may have considered him in the fourth, fifth round. So it does end up pushing things back.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Crickett View Post
        I will disagree to this extent. In a lot of cases, there just isn't that NFL caliber talent in the UDFA crop. Even when teams find a gem, they find at most 1. Pittsburgh found Willie Parker in 2003 as a UDFA, but thats all they found. When Dallas got Tony Romo as a UDFA, but who else did they get as UDFA's that year? If the Jets are relying on a UDFA class like that, they're in a lot of trouble.
        I don't have any statistics, but 5th-7th rounders don't often pan out, and even when they do it is often as backups/special teams guys. My point was that the talent pool in the late rounds isn't so much better than the pool of undrafted guys many years. There are always a ton of guys that inexplicably fall out of the draft altogether.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by josh07039 View Post
          There are always a ton of guys that inexplicably fall out of the draft altogether.
          There are, but very few of them amount to anything in the NFL. And I don't know of any team that has gotten more than 1 good player out of any single UDFA class.

          It was not that long ago that I wanted the Jets to get Ernest Shazor, James Butler, Michael Munoz, Jason White, Justin Jenkins, James Newson and a whole host of others. But only two of them are in the NFL, one has actually done anything (Butler) and he wasn't mediocre at best.

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          • #20
            Chansi Stuckey,Harry Williams, Titus Adams, Rashad Washington, Dave Yovanovitis, Matt Walters, Jacob Bender,Jason Posciak, Drew Coleman, Joel Dressen, (went to copy paste at this point)Cavka, Marko. McClover, Darrell ,Johnson, Trevor ,Ward, Derrick, Pagel, Derek ,Walters, Matt Bollinger, Brooks. In that list Stuckey has a shot, Ward is good with another team, Drew Coleman is decent, and Brooks Bollinger is the best qb of all time but not given a chance. 6th and 7th round picks don't work out on ant consistent basis as Im sure you know. Im just saying that listing players that didn't work out and saying only 1 udfa works out a year is a bit ridiculous.
            Most undrafted guys don't get a shot because teams have drafted guys that they look at for their limited roster spots first. I think it is conceivable that with more roster spots and more opportunity, we can find more undrafted steals than is typical.
            Last edited by josh07039; 04-28-2009, 02:37 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by josh07039 View Post
              Most undrafted guys don't get a shot because teams have drafted guys that they look at for their limited roster spots first. I think it is conceivable that with more roster spots and more opportunity, we can find more undrafted steals than is typical.
              There's no reason for me to think that UDFA's get any less of a shot than players drafted rounds 5-7, but succeed on the NFL much less frequently.

              As far as the typical number of undrafted steals, the typical range is 0-1.

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              • #22
                Damn, I remember liking a lot of those 6th and 7th round guys a lot. Harry Williams in particular. And Jason Pociask was actually a 5th, picks like that make me alright with signing Andrew Davie as a UDFA.

                I will agree that the 6th and 7th round picks of the world aren't going to do you much more good than UDFA's. But generally we're dealing the round 3-5 picks with a lot of frequency as well. Now you can miss on those, but you can hit on them as well and we have done that in the past quite often. It's nice that we're hitting more consistently in the second round, or getting good players in the late first via trade up.

                But those are the guys I think we really miss being able to draft. We've selected 3 in the past two drafts where we should have selected 6: Greene, Lowery, and Ainge. Puts a lot of pressure on us to make sure all of those guys hit, and it hasn't been happening. I guess less early-round busts recently has been nice, but these guys help too.

                I see little to no difference between a 6th or 7th rounder and a UDFA. Those guys should have an equal shot of making the team. But the 3rd, 4th, 5th rounders almost always make the team and play a role in some capacity.

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                • #23
                  I think after the 4th it doesn't matter a ton, but it's going to be a problem if we only take two guys on the first day (the old first day) every year, even if they both pan out. What we need to do is lay off FA a little bit for once.
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                  • #24
                    I disagree. I'll agree with the 2nd day trade, as it seems we gave up a fair bit in a relative type way. However, if he works out then i'm all for it. The Sanchez trade was worth it, no question in my mind. Boom or bust. You need to try to get a franchise QB. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. My only regret is last year having Favre instead of having Kellen get a shot. Justin Mac may have hurt his chances with the Jets to a degree of no repair.


                    Courtesy of Fenikz - Much Appreciated

                    Originally posted by dRaFtDoRk
                    You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Great Jonathan Vilma View Post
                      I disagree. I'll agree with the 2nd day trade, as it seems we gave up a fair bit in a relative type way. However, if he works out then i'm all for it. The Sanchez trade was worth it, no question in my mind. Boom or bust. You need to try to get a franchise QB. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. My only regret is last year having Favre instead of having Kellen get a shot. Justin Mac may have hurt his chances with the Jets to a degree of no repair.
                      I agree with you about last year with the whole Favre situation. I told all of my friends who are Jets fans last year that Favre will put us in a bad situation this year. I said that Favre will retire, which he did. Then we wont, know what we have in Clemens, which is true. I thought Clemens looked good 2 years ago but Macariens pretty much screwd him.

                      Now if Sanchez lives up to the hype, then that goes out the window. But if Sanchez busts and Clemens goes somewhere else and turns out good, then the Jets have to second guess themselves. Just my opinion but sounds pretty logical.

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                      • #26
                        Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

                        Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

                        Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

                        The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by starwitness View Post
                          Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.
                          The Jets OL is average? The Jets are "OK" at running back? Yeah, you seem to need one of these.



                          There you go.




                          Originally posted by starwitness View Post
                          Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.
                          Upgrades all over the defense and coaching staff and the Jets are looking at 1-4 at best? Time to wake up from your dream world and re-enter reality.


                          Originally posted by starwitness View Post
                          The worst part of the trade was the players given up.
                          Yes troll, that was the worst part of the trade. Giving up the two worst already replaced starters on the defense, and a backup quarterback. Riiiiiiiiiiight. It wasn't giving up all of the picks that was the bad part, it was giving up the scrubs. But you are a Dolphins fan, so you should be familar with scrubs given that your starting quarterback has the weakest arm in NFL history.

                          Go back to the dolphins forum and swoon over Pat White, your third second round backup QB in three years.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by starwitness View Post
                            Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

                            Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

                            Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

                            The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.


                            Yeah taking Sanchez was a risk, but EVERYONE knows it and we really didn't give up a whole lot to do it. A second that was in no mans land for what we and three backups? It's worth the shot at this point, we obviously were not comfortable with the situation. Your post was really an unnecessary trolling post that was almost entirely your own personal opinion, I'm really not sure why you posted anything at all other than to be an ass.

                            Also, Ryan apparently told Tannenbaum at Sanchez's workout that he was their guy, so he was not thrust on him.
                            Last edited by derza222; 04-29-2009, 12:54 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by starwitness View Post
                              Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

                              Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

                              Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

                              The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.

                              Sig by BoneKrusher

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by starwitness View Post
                                Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

                                Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

                                Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

                                The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.
                                I didn't read what you said but I hate whatever it was.
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