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  • Nj.
    started a topic Way too much for 3 players?

    Way too much for 3 players?

    If you think about it, this trade has basically been us giving up:

    2nd Round Pick
    4th Round Pick
    7th Round Pick
    Abram Elam
    Brett Ratliff

    To Get:
    Mark Sanchez
    Shonn Greene




    If we stayed where we were in each round we could have drafted:
    Round 1: Jeremy Maclin
    Round 2: LeSean McCoy
    Round 3: Jared Cook
    Round 4: Louis Murphy
    Round 6 and 7: We could have looked for a defensive pass rusher

    I would take that group up there combined over Sanchez and Greene

  • derza222
    replied
    Your opinion wasn't what ruffled the feathers, more how you stated it initially. I've got no beef with how the back and forth went since, it was just how you came off when you first posted in this thread that irked everyone, though props to you for not caring (and I'm not being sarcastic).

    I agree the Jets have work to do, mostly offensively and some with depth on the defensive line and at safety. I do think our starting defensive unit can be a force to be reckoned with if the system change goes smoothly. It's very easy to underestimate what the additions of Leonhard, Scott, and Sheppard will do but they filled by far our three biggest holes on defense. We did not have a safety who could cover besides Rhodes which resulted in a lot of big plays for other teams and also forced Rhodes to cover more instead of roaming and making plays which allows him to make a bigger impact. Our inside linebackers also could not cover and Scott brings familiarity with the system along with more versatility and talent than Barton had. Finally, we had Ty Law playing #2 corner last year and Lito Sheppard has tremendous potential. He'll still be better than anybody we had last year in a worst case scenario though. All three should massively upgrade our starting unit, and depth won't be too much worse. Our depth wasn't fantastic last year either.

    I more or less agree with everything else or generally see where you're coming from except the Jets and Bears giving up about equal amounts for Cutler and Sanchez. The Jets could not even get on the phone with the Broncos for Cutler, and would have been laughed halfway across the earth if they offered a first, a second, and those three backups for Cutler. The only reason they were able to get up to five is because the Browns defensive talent level is poor and Mangini is in love with some of our personnel guys that wouldn't be starting here. Wasn't even close.

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  • starwitness
    replied
    Unless you consider Abram Elam, Kenyon Coleman, and Brett Ratliff to be worth a second round pick combined, and I'm not sure what realistic individuals draft picks you can allocate to those individual players that can make them worth a second, they got a good deal on the value chart. And trading a second that in all likelihood would not have good value for what was needed was nothing awful either.

    I think that late first and 2nd round picks are the most valuable commodities in the league because there are always starting caliber players available at multiple positions, and the picks dont carry the financial risk of a top ten selection. That said, I still dont like trading trading multiple picks and players for one guy, especially an unproven guy.

    As for how much the Jets gave up for Sanchez, I think we can use the Jay Cutler trade as a measuring stick. Cutler is a proven pro bowl guy, a franchise player at his position. He's one of the top 3-5 young QB's in the league, and he's playing at a bargain price at 6yrs 47 million. The Bears got him for Orton, two 1s and a 3. The Jets traded a 1, a 2, Coleman, Ratliff, and Elam to get Sanchez, who could get somewhere between 60-70 million should he sign a 6 yr deal (Matt Ryan got 6yrs 72 million last year/Stafford got 6yrs 70 million + 6million in incentives). You could argue either side here, but I'd say the Bears and Jets gave up about the same amount to get thier guys. And I'd also say the Bears got a proven guy, at a much cheaper price, so thier trade for Cutler looks alot better then the deal you guys made for the 50/50 Mark Sanchez.

    Yes the move hurt depth, and yes they are talking a chance on an unproven player. You either have to do that or hope to get lucky to land a franchise QB, and the Jets haven't been lucky for the past few years...or decades really. The organization found a QB they universally liked and felt would fit in here and decided to take a shot. We'll see how it plays out, but everybody liked him and felt it was worth it. As Jets fans all we can do is hope it works out, as a Dolphins fan all you can do is hope it doesn't work out, and nothing anybody says now means anything. We'll all have to see what happens. Sanchez has the work ethic and physical tools to make it work in the league, whether or not he manages to have success is, as I said, yet to be determined.

    Hard to argue with any of that. All I can say is that I'm not in Dolfan mode here. Im just answering the question asked in the topic title, did the Jets give up too much? As several people have said, if Sanchez pans out, it'lll be seen as a good deal. But you cant argue that its not a major risk. And assuming that Ryan wants to pound the ball and play defense, a franchise QB isnt necessary. You guys need a smart, dependable QB who can move the chains and protect the ball. You dont need a guy to come in and chuck it 40 times a game, or throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs. So Sanchez is not only a major risk, he's an unecessary risk as well.

    The fact of the matter is that you're coming in here and telling us things that we already know. Sanchez was a risk. The move hurt depth. We need a WR more than we need a RB. But at this point all we can do is hope as fans of our team things work out. Clowney, Smith, or Stuckey steps up in a big way this season. Shonn Greene justifies trading 2 picks to move up to get him. Sanchez is a franchise QB. Our offensive line depth is better than we anticipate. The defense comes together. Nobody gets hurt. That's what we'll do, and I understand you'll do the opposite.

    I'm coming in here to answer the question that the original poster asked, nothing more. If my opinion ruffles a few feathers, so be it. But this is a football forum, and we're all here to talk football, right?. The hopes you allude to are accurrate imo. But again, your team's place in the AFC East pecking order suffered considerably on draft weekend. Not so much b/c of the deals, but because (on paper) the Bills, Dolphins, and Patriots all improved thier rosters more than the Jets did. I HATE the Pats, and the Bills are sub human, but I give credit where it's due and both of those teams did well this offseason. If Brady is healthy, the Pats are scary good again, and theyve got three 2nd round picks again next year.

    Personally, I'm concerned about the lack of depth and I know there's about a 50/50 chance Sanchez will bust. I don't think we're going to make the playoffs this year, and I think starting Sanchez with our WR situation is a mistake. I wanted them to hand the starting job to Clemens, since I don't want Sanchez starting this year and I don't want him losing to Clemens in training camp. I don't like being between building long-term and having a win-now team on defense and the offensive front. We'll see what happens. It's just that nobody likes having a fan from another team come onto your team board and say your team ****** up and they're screwed. It's 50/50 for a lot of these guys, the lack of the depth hurts, we'll see how the defense comes together, and hopefully nobody gets injured. Can't wait till games start and we can see what's what.

    There's nothing wrong with a little smack talk. And you should blame the topic starter, not me. Im just answering the question. The Jets made some good moves this offseason. Lito Sheppard was a good player when I last saw him (2007) in a starting role. Bart Scott was a beast last year, and he'll be playing in the same system. I think Jets fans will love Jim Leonhard and Larry Izzo. Like you said, we'll have to see what happens. But with the info thats available today, I'd say the Jets have alot of work to do.

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  • jmess15
    replied
    Originally posted by starwitness View Post


    The draft is a crap shoot. There's no telling who's a Tom Brady or who's a Tim Couch.
    We all agree that the draft is a crap shoot, but earlier in the post you detailed all of the teams in the division and how upgraded themselves (and you mentioned a lot of the players they drafted). Seems like you are trying to have it both ways. The Jets draft picks will struggle but all of the other picks in the divison will not.

    As for the phins, most of us on this board love Pennington. He is a good quarterback when tings are going well (running game, good defense etc) but as soon as something goes the wrong way he does too. You will see that this year I am afraid. However the difference between you and me is I won't go to your teams board and start yapping on how bad your organization is and how badly you handled some personnel moves. I relaize that you havent totally dissed us (you give props to our defense) but you get my point.

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  • LonghornsLegend
    replied
    Coming from an outsider stance I really don't see why people think that is giving up alot...If Sanchez turns into a pretty good QB you'll look back on that trade in 5 years and laugh at how little the amount was to get yourself a franchise QB.



    I don't think it was just media and PR, the only piece the team was missing was a franchise QB and a WR, and we all know which one is more important out of the two...Rex Ryan knowing that he could his team was ready to make a run a QB makes alot of sense with the way the defense was upgraded to this point.


    Had they not made the moves they did on that side of the ball, then yea you could question that, but the defense should be able to win some games for you, and I think Baltimore proved that you can win without a flashy WR.


    I think you guys have a good recipe to start year 1 for Rex Ryan, and those holes will be filled in years to come, but I think it was more important that they addressed key positions, and I thought the trade was highway robbery...Cleveland was taking deals well below value all 1st round just because they wanted to move down.

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  • derza222
    replied
    Originally posted by starwitness View Post

    Four players for one is a good deal? Lol. I hope Tannenbaum makes good deals like that every year.

    The draft is a crap shoot. There's no telling who's a Tom Brady or who's a Tim Couch. Sanchez, Stafford and Freeman are average QBs imo. Had they come out last year, they wouldve been 2nd or third round picks. Wise move by them to come out this year b/c the QB class is super weak, but it doenst make them better players. Trading four players for any one of them is a huge risk, and had my team done it, I'd be killing them for it. It only makes sense as a financial move, to help sell the tickets at new stadium, and in that respect it was in fact a great idea. But it wont help win games.
    Unless you consider Abram Elam, Kenyon Coleman, and Brett Ratliff to be worth a second round pick combined, and I'm not sure what realistic individuals draft picks you can allocate to those individual players that can make them worth a second, they got a good deal on the value chart. And trading a second that in all likelihood would not have good value for what was needed was nothing awful either.

    Yes the move hurt depth, and yes they are talking a chance on an unproven player. You either have to do that or hope to get lucky to land a franchise QB, and the Jets haven't been lucky for the past few years...or decades really. The organization found a QB they universally liked and felt would fit in here and decided to take a shot. We'll see how it plays out, but everybody liked him and felt it was worth it. As Jets fans all we can do is hope it works out, as a Dolphins fan all you can do is hope it doesn't work out, and nothing anybody says now means anything. We'll all have to see what happens. Sanchez has the work ethic and physical tools to make it work in the league, whether or not he manages to have success is, as I said, yet to be determined.

    The fact of the matter is that you're coming in here and telling us things that we already know. Sanchez was a risk. The move hurt depth. We need a WR more than we need a RB. But at this point all we can do is hope as fans of our team things work out. Clowney, Smith, or Stuckey steps up in a big way this season. Shonn Greene justifies trading 2 picks to move up to get him. Sanchez is a franchise QB. Our offensive line depth is better than we anticipate. The defense comes together. Nobody gets hurt. That's what we'll do, and I understand you'll do the opposite.

    Personally, I'm concerned about the lack of depth and I know there's about a 50/50 chance Sanchez will bust. I don't think we're going to make the playoffs this year, and I think starting Sanchez with our WR situation is a mistake. I wanted them to hand the starting job to Clemens, since I don't want Sanchez starting this year and I don't want him losing to Clemens in training camp. I don't like being between building long-term and having a win-now team on defense and the offensive front. We'll see what happens. It's just that nobody likes having a fan from another team come onto your team board and say your team ****** up and they're screwed. It's 50/50 for a lot of these guys, the lack of the depth hurts, we'll see how the defense comes together, and hopefully nobody gets injured. Can't wait till games start and we can see what's what.

    Leave a comment:


  • starwitness
    replied
    Originally posted by Hurricanes25 View Post
    Tannenbaum did not panic at all. The organization felt that we needed a QB and they liked Sanchez. He traded up to 5 and got a good deal. Tannenbaum has had a good track record trading up in the draft to get players that the Jets like. It works for us. End of story.


    Four players for one is a good deal? Lol. I hope Tannenbaum makes good deals like that every year.

    The draft is a crap shoot. There's no telling who's a Tom Brady or who's a Tim Couch. Sanchez, Stafford and Freeman are average QBs imo. Had they come out last year, they wouldve been 2nd or third round picks. Wise move by them to come out this year b/c the QB class is super weak, but it doenst make them better players. Trading four players for any one of them is a huge risk, and had my team done it, I'd be killing them for it. It only makes sense as a financial move, to help sell the tickets at new stadium, and in that respect it was in fact a great idea. But it wont help win games.

    Leave a comment:


  • starwitness
    replied
    Originally posted by jmess15 View Post
    You've made your point. But games are not won in April and May. Who cares what you say or any of us for that matter. No one thought that the Dolphins would do anything last year, and Voila division champs. A lot of people were on the Bills bandwagon last year and look what happened. I remember early in the 2001 season I watched the Jets play what I thought was one of the worst teams I had seen in years. They had a bunch of retreads on their team and when Mo Lewis knocked out their starting QB I thought they'd be lucky to win a game all year. Well someone named Tom brady took over and they won a Super Bowl. My point is you cant tell until the games are played so why bother getting all riled up for something that you have no control over.
    Obviously its early, so this is all idle chatter, I figured that much went without saying. The discussion is based on the information that is currently available, so the "too early" stuff is true, but it defeats the purpose of talking football, and thats why were here isnt it?

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  • Hurricanes25
    replied
    Originally posted by starwitness View Post
    I agree, there is no need to panic in the draft. But thats exactly what Tannenbaum seems to have done. He jumped up to number 5 to take Sanchez, (fearing Washington would trump him perhaps) even though none of the teams picking between 5 and 9 were much of a threat to take him. Not that it matters, you guys are going to be a pound the rock type and play defense type team anyway, so all you need is a Pennington type QB who can move the chains and protect the ball, moving up for Sanchez, or any othet flashy QB was unecessary.
    Tannenbaum did not panic at all. The organization felt that we needed a QB and they liked Sanchez. He traded up to 5 and got a good deal. Tannenbaum has had a good track record trading up in the draft to get players that the Jets like. It works for us. End of story.

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  • jmess15
    replied
    Originally posted by starwitness View Post
    Dominant defense, solid running back, rookie QB, coach named Rex Ryan, Im suprised it took this long for someone to make the Ravens comparison.
    Certainly its possible. But the Ravens had a MUCH easier schedule than the Jets have this year, and the Jets D will be good, but it wont be "Ravens" good.

    I agree, there is no need to panic in the draft. But thats exactly what Tannenbaum seems to have done. He jumped up to number 5 to take Sanchez, (fearing Washington would trump him perhaps) even though none of the teams picking between 5 and 9 were much of a threat to take him. Not that it matters, you guys are going to be a pound the rock type and play defense type team anyway, so all you need is a Pennington type QB who can move the chains and protect the ball, moving up for Sanchez, or any othet flashy QB was unecessary.

    What I dont think youre understanding is that the whole league can see your pound the ball strategy from a mile and away, and they arent going to just sit around and allow it to happen. Any coach with a brain is going to crowd the line of scrimmage and stuff the run, play tight man coverage to take away all fo the "safe" throws, and bring a variety of complex coverages and blitz packages to test the young QB. Its football 101.

    If you like Clowney and Stuckey as your deep threat WRs then fine. Cotchery and Keller may in fact have decent years. But if the goal is to win games, then I just dont see where the Jets have much chance of improving on last year's record b/c the rest of the division has improved alot more than you guys have.
    You've made your point. But games are not won in April and May. Who cares what you say or any of us for that matter. No one thought that the Dolphins would do anything last year, and Voila division champs. A lot of people were on the Bills bandwagon last year and look what happened. I remember early in the 2001 season I watched the Jets play what I thought was one of the worst teams I had seen in years. They had a bunch of retreads on their team and when Mo Lewis knocked out their starting QB I thought they'd be lucky to win a game all year. Well someone named Tom brady took over and they won a Super Bowl. My point is you cant tell until the games are played so why bother getting all riled up for something that you have no control over.

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  • starwitness
    replied
    Originally posted by msolimani View Post
    I'm not debating you that the Jets need a WR, they absolutely could use an upgrade. But we're also 4 months away from the season. How many solid veterans every year around the start of the season are cut as cap casualties(Pennington), put on the trade block(Boldin, Edwards) or for some other reason(Favre)? There's no need for them to panic in the draft and take one in rounds 3-7 if they don't have a high enough rating on one, which they obviously didn't.

    It also comes down to philosophy, I agree that the passing game helps the run game and vice versa, but the Jets offense this year will be very similar to the Ravens of last year. They will rely heavily on the run game to get them going, and play very physical football. They will utilize the possesion guys(Keller and Cotchery should have solid years) and throw simple and safe plays to constantly move the chains. We do have the speed necessary to take the deep shots (Clowney and Stuckey) so you're just wrong there. Honestly, a blocking TE is more of a need for us than WR and the current moment.
    Dominant defense, solid running back, rookie QB, coach named Rex Ryan, Im suprised it took this long for someone to make the Ravens comparison.
    Certainly its possible. But the Ravens had a MUCH easier schedule than the Jets have this year, and the Jets D will be good, but it wont be "Ravens" good.

    I agree, there is no need to panic in the draft. But thats exactly what Tannenbaum seems to have done. He jumped up to number 5 to take Sanchez, (fearing Washington would trump him perhaps) even though none of the teams picking between 5 and 9 were much of a threat to take him. Not that it matters, you guys are going to be a pound the rock type and play defense type team anyway, so all you need is a Pennington type QB who can move the chains and protect the ball, moving up for Sanchez, or any othet flashy QB was unecessary.

    What I dont think youre understanding is that the whole league can see your pound the ball strategy from a mile and away, and they arent going to just sit around and allow it to happen. Any coach with a brain is going to crowd the line of scrimmage and stuff the run, play tight man coverage to take away all fo the "safe" throws, and bring a variety of complex coverages and blitz packages to test the young QB. Its football 101.

    If you like Clowney and Stuckey as your deep threat WRs then fine. Cotchery and Keller may in fact have decent years. But if the goal is to win games, then I just dont see where the Jets have much chance of improving on last year's record b/c the rest of the division has improved alot more than you guys have.

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  • msolimani
    replied
    Originally posted by starwitness View Post
    Sorry but that doesnt come close to justifying the Shonn Green trade. RBs do take alot of punishment, and Im more concerned with Jones age than his temper tantrum, but RBs come a dime a dozen. Its probably the easiest position to fill on a roster, and arguably the easiest position to play on thie field.

    I know youre a Jets fan and all, but youe outsmarting yourself. The Jets needed a WR, still do actually. You guys are obviously planning on pounding the ball to protect your QB and your defense this year. But you have to at least have the threat of a pass game in order for that strategy to be effective. If teams know you cant go down the field then even elite backs like Adrian Peterson can be stymied b/c teams will just load the box w defenders and FORCE you to pass. The Pats have the worst run blocking O Line and worst running backs in the division, but they were tops in rushing yds in the division (6th in the league) b/c they have Moss and Welker to keep defenses honest.
    I'm not debating you that the Jets need a WR, they absolutely could use an upgrade. But we're also 4 months away from the season. How many solid veterans every year around the start of the season are cut as cap casualties(Pennington), put on the trade block(Boldin, Edwards) or for some other reason(Favre)? There's no need for them to panic in the draft and take one in rounds 3-7 if they don't have a high enough rating on one, which they obviously didn't.

    It also comes down to philosophy, I agree that the passing game helps the run game and vice versa, but the Jets offense this year will be very similar to the Ravens of last year. They will rely heavily on the run game to get them going, and play very physical football. They will utilize the possesion guys(Keller and Cotchery should have solid years) and throw simple and safe plays to constantly move the chains. We do have the speed necessary to take the deep shots (Clowney and Stuckey) so you're just wrong there. Honestly, a blocking TE is more of a need for us than WR and the current moment.
    Last edited by msolimani; 05-01-2009, 12:17 PM.

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  • starwitness
    replied
    Originally posted by msolimani View Post
    Maybe b/c RB is the position that takes the most pounding and is the most unpredictable injury wise. Look at the Broncos last year they went through 7 starting RB's. Not to mention that Thomas Jones is in the middle of a contract "situation" (don't want to call it a holdout yet) and who knows when he'll get back on the field.
    Sorry but that doesnt come close to justifying the Shonn Green trade. RBs do take alot of punishment, and Im more concerned with Jones age than his temper tantrum, but RBs come a dime a dozen. Its probably the easiest position to fill on a roster, and arguably the easiest position to play on thie field.

    I know youre a Jets fan and all, but youe outsmarting yourself. The Jets needed a WR, still do actually. You guys are obviously planning on pounding the ball to protect your QB and your defense this year. But you have to at least have the threat of a pass game in order for that strategy to be effective. If teams know you cant go down the field then even elite backs like Adrian Peterson can be stymied b/c teams will just load the box w defenders and FORCE you to pass. The Pats have the worst run blocking O Line and worst running backs in the division, but they were tops in rushing yds in the division (6th in the league) b/c they have Moss and Welker to keep defenses honest.

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  • msolimani
    replied
    Originally posted by starwitness View Post

    Fine with me, you can take whoever you want. No one is doubting Jones, he played well last year, which is why youre talking out of both sides of your mouth right now. If Jones is good, and Leon is good, why oh why would you trade three picks for another RB? Especially when you clearly have greater needs at WR and you already traded 4 players (3 and a pick) to get Sanchez? Get some rest, you sound tired dude.
    Maybe b/c RB is the position that takes the most pounding and is the most unpredictable injury wise. Look at the Broncos last year they went through 7 starting RB's. Not to mention that Thomas Jones is in the middle of a contract "situation" (don't want to call it a holdout yet) and who knows when he'll get back on the field.

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  • msolimani
    replied
    Pick your face up Starwitness!!! You had an uphill battle to begin with but you just got proven absolutely wrong.

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