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  • Originally posted by AlexDown View Post
    I've gotten every pick right in Pick'Em this week, except the Jets game. I didn't get to see it but I heard Pennington was showing off his guns this week. 57 yard TD pass without at least 80% of it coming from YAC? Is that right eh? :)
    The Jets just lost a game in one of the most painful ways possible and you include a smiley face in your post? ;) It's probably best that you didn't watch the game, or at least the second half. 28-3 we were outscored...

    Better get your Chad compliments in while you can though, changes are a coming...

    Comment


    • how about we put the blame on Brian Schottenheimer for this loss. Horrendous play calling in the 2nd half, we didnt take any shots down field, which worked brilliantly in the first half. My fear is that even if Kellen came in, itd be the same old conservative offense, which is terrible.


      ^^Sig From Nvot9
      J-E-T-S JETS! JETS! JETS!

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      • Originally posted by Zim3031 View Post
        The Jets just lost a game in one of the most painful ways possible and you include a smiley face in your post? ;) It's probably best that you didn't watch the game, or at least the second half. 28-3 we were outscored...

        Better get your Chad compliments in while you can though, changes are a coming...
        Your post above has a smiley, SURPRISINGLY next to Clemens names ;).

        C. Pennington 20/31 272 Yards 3TD 1 INT - Pretty good game. I'm guessing as many of you have stated earlier, it wasn't Chad's fault they lost nor has it really been his fault this entire season in my opinion. But that is certainty debatable.

        I am guessing the D could not stop Cinci at all in the second half, which is depressing, but not surprising.

        How was the play calling this game? Anyone player shine / disappoint? Was Leon Hall covering Coles today? How did our OL look?

        Comment


        • C. Pennington 20/31 272 Yards 3TD 1 INT - Pretty good game. I'm guessing as many of you have stated earlier, it wasn't Chad's fault they lost nor has it really been his fault this entire season in my opinion. But that is certainty debatable.
          Chad's performance certainly varied by the half. I don't have the statistics on me but in the first half he went about 14/18 160 yards or so and 2 tds. The Jets are up by 10, Chad playing well against the Bengals defense and everything's looking up.

          The second half was a complete and utter train wreck. For everyone. After scoring on the first five possessions, the offense suddenly stagnates. Chad's stats between the end of the half and the game ending pick were around 8/14 59 yards and that one interception. Obviously, this isn't ALL on Chad, the running game struggled and the pass protection had several holes at times, but to hold Chad blameless for the wreckage in the second half would just be ridiculous. (The rest of his stats, including the 3rd TD, came on the meaningless, final drive.)

          I am guessing the D could not stop Cinci at all in the second half, which is depressing, but not surprising.
          Obviously. Bad defense against superstar offenses aren't fun to watch.
          How was the play calling this game?
          The same as it's been every game. The offense doesn't go down field much. (Although they did do it once this game.) Pennington's success came mostly off of crossing routes over the middle of the field, hence Sean Ryan's success, and off of the short sideline throws. Of course, one of those got taken to the house by Jonathan Joseph.
          Was Leon Hall covering Coles today?
          The bulk of Coles' yards came on 2 plays. The first was the 53 yard deep pass in which he slipped by the defensive backs with room to spare. I think Hall was in on that play though I have no idea what his assignment was or if he blew it. The second was just a dump off route that involved some hilarious missed tackles resulting in a touchdown. The limited camera angles make it tough to focus on who's covering who, but I do know that Joseph was covering coles when he made the pick...
          How did our OL look?
          Excellent in the first half, but slowly regressing in the second half, with a few awful mistakes. Essentially, they were like every other facet of the team.

          Comment


          • A good read, goes through post game interviews and well you'll see. http://jets.lohudblogs.com/2007/10/2...ls-38-jets-31/

            "When it's third and ten, you can take the milk drinkers and I'll take the whiskey drinkers every time."

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            • My take on the QB situation:

              In any position when the starter does not give you a chance to win now or have really good future potential and is learning his way he is no longer a good decision to be a starter. Chad doesn't have a good future with the Jets and he doesn't give us a good shot to win games. Yes some say giving Clemens the start may "throw the season away" but at least it we are preparing for the future seasons by starting him. I think it might be nice to see a Jets offense stretch the field and because of that we may even win some games. My opinion: Start Kellen Clemens!
              Penn State University - Detroit Red Wings - New York Jets - Red Bull New York - Fulham FC

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              • Originally posted by TimDris View Post
                My take on the QB situation:

                In any position when the starter does not give you a chance to win now or have really good future potential and is learning his way he is no longer a good decision to be a starter. Chad doesn't have a good future with the Jets and he doesn't give us a good shot to win games. Yes some say giving Clemens the start may "throw the season away" but at least it we are preparing for the future seasons by starting him. I think it might be nice to see a Jets offense stretch the field and because of that we may even win some games. My opinion: Start Kellen Clemens!
                Giving reps to Clemens in order to prepare him woulden't make sense if we are (looking at your sig) drafting Woodson.

                Comment


                • On the commment that when a QB doesnt play well enough to let you win...Watch a game or at least the 1st half...they had a 10 point lead!!!!!! thats putting a team in position...he didnt do it alone but he didnt lose the game either...Chad played well enough for the team to win, the playcalling was awful. 3-2 in the redzone and they call a fade in the endzone instead of picking up a 1st and getting a freshset of downs to mess with giving TJ a little more COME ON!

                  I find this telling about the PERCEPTION on Chad....Keyshawn Johnson and several other analysts said Jay Cutler will not win as long as this defense makes him play from beihind every game in the 2nd half. Remind you of anyone....Yet when it came time for Chad Pennington it was all on him and no mention of a defense that makes him and the offesne play from behind. As of now that's besides the point

                  Shottenheimer should be gone. We seem like we're alergic to he thing that got us places last year INNOVATION and creativity in play calling. The OL played to C+/B- grade in the 1st half and a C- grade in the second. ADRIEN CLARKE SUCKS!!!!! He rounds off his blocks and is the predominant reason we can't run to the left side...Brick is mediocre at best (not physical enough) and Clarke doesn't pick him up like Kendall did...Clement is awful in pass protection and inconsistent in the run game.

                  The DL may be the worst in football and after watching Vilma dogpile tackles and get annhilated by OLmen I realized if we're commited to running a 3-4 or even a 34 43 hybrid bullsh!t D he needs to be traded (I love him but if thats our way he can't be our MLB) Looking at yesterdays game a good trade might be to the Bengals for a 1st rounder-they run a 4-3 and are thin Schlegel starts for them. Again I love J Vilma and DA U LBs but I dont think anyone would say he fits anywhere in our system.

                  This team is bad... I can see a change at QB but I dont see why at this juncture...Chads MO may be to pick up his game against inferior opponents or excel in those situations but I think it was said best in the postgame press conference...If chad couldn't make all the throws or win these games why is the coaching staff putting him in to play..."it would be a detriment to the team" And a lot of you have been saying of course these guys (like LC) are going to stick up for Chad, but are downplaying the impact that will have on the team if he's benched...I hate comparing different sports but this is more locker room issues this situation is analogous to the Yankees situation with Joe Torre now that he's gone they may lose Jorge Mariano Pettite and if chad's benched after a loss where the defense dug the offense and more specifically the guy on the line Chad pennington a hole they couldn't get out of and LC has been mumbling about retiring what is that going to do for team morale and our WR core

                  If Pennington is benched after a start like that it will send mixed signals to the players just like the Kendall negotiations and then signing Moore to an extention and the front office will be outsmarting themselves. and be sending an awful message that if you as one player play poorly and deserve criticism and then respond to said criticism when "you're job is on the line" and can't carry the team and win then you'll be benched...Mangini is also about positive and negative reinforcement this would be so counterintuitive to bench a guy after a 111 QB rating and with 3 TD 1 INT performace (his second best of the season after his rating against the Patriots...so I wonder if the idea that he only plays well against inferior defenses HOLDS WATER) and an 88 QB rating for the season. How secure is Clemens going to feel. Yes Vinny Testaverde was playing okay in 2002 but his QB rating was 78 and had been in years past 75 69 and 78 respectively so he had a few years to suck and then get benched.

                  This situtaiton is awful for the team and I think blaming one guy is stupid, irresponsible and detrimental to the team. This season IS OVER for those who dont want to accept it. Why should we remove our QB when we dont penalize out NT for sucking or our MLB for not playing up to par or how about andre dyson our CB after he cant make a tackle a 3 year old can make. All of the criticisms are short sighted and based on double standards.

                  Evaluating the team as a whole: They suck and Id rather bench all our starters than one bc they are losing as a team and doing a damn good job of it.
                  QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

                  Exactly Why The Jets were the Coolest Team in the NFL under Rex, but Bowles is the man-see Arians speech:

                  http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...x-in-town.html


                  http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...e-for-you.html

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                  • I havee been all for starting Kellen Clemens the last couple weeks, however I do understand after calming down a bit why you can't just bench chad.

                    It's not like baseball where you can have a guy hit .300 40 and 120 while knowing he's gonna be on a losing team, they can easily avoid injury. If you take chad out it seems as though you are essentially giving up on the season and you can't just tell these guys go beat each other up and risk serious injury every day to play for the following year. I understand that is why you couldn't take chad out, but I do feel if we start Kellen and win this coming weekened the team won't feel like they are playing for next year. Anyways i hope theres improvement as a whole team this weekend, becuase we need a solid consistent game.

                    edit. well you can't count those 40+ yds and 3rd td becuase they were pointless at the time and just a hailmary. And vilma was constantly rotating in an out of the game and not playing his entire every down. Erik coleman was benched for Abram, Andre dyson was benched; other players are getting reprimanded it isn't just chad.
                    Last edited by BroadwayJoe10; 10-22-2007, 10:06 AM.

                    "When it's third and ten, you can take the milk drinkers and I'll take the whiskey drinkers every time."

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                    • Abrham looked good to me and he provides a lot of what Coleman doesnt....Ive never heard of him though...Though you have to admit even though theyre been rotated in and out its not bc theyre being repremanded and criticized in the press like the QB and they are playing much worse....Plus that argument is close to a moot point bc Mangini, even last year, played the rotating game with the defense as a whole, so it remains to be seen whether or not they are doing it as a punishment or to keep people fresh... Dyson was not benched after the Plaxico incident and he then proceeded to whiff on a tackle on Kevin Curtis...Thought he would be a good #2 forget I ever said that (I wish I never thought about it....I guess his foot injury proved worse than I expected)... Vilma 2 weeks ago broke a streak he had been carrying since last season of playing every play of every game...They realized when he came out they had better 34 ILBs in Harris and Barton, which is why you may have seen more of that package in your life, but they aren't being yanked and grabbed by the helmet and told they're on a short lease.....WHICH BY THE WAY was a farse (IMO) made up by Chris Mortensen or his source bc after the game Chad said he was "never told he was on a short leash and that doesn't even sound like coach Mangini so some people need to check their sources" Whatever the case...the team needs several changes and I think changing QBs at this juncture is a mistake, not bc it will mask poor play by other players but it would provide more inconsistency to a team that is struggling with it already and that is the last thing a rookie starter needs...It takes a good deal of time to develop QB WR relationships which is why Im all in favor of starting clemens bc he is the supposed future (ONLY after the bye week so he has plenty of time to prepare and get his confidence up and start somewhat gelling with someone other than stonehands mccareins) This is also providing it can be seen that the D can play well enough to squeek out a win and Chads orchestration of the offense is executed horribly when picked up by the rest of the team BC WE HAVE NOT SEEN THAT THIS YEAR... Yes our QB has struggled and is he a pro bowler no but is he THE reason they're losing...in the words of Lavernues Coles "No don't blame one guy we all stink"...Which even if he's sticking up for chad he's right they all are playing inconsistantly, flatly, poorly amongst other degrading adjectives.
                      Last edited by hcbrad08; 10-22-2007, 11:36 AM.
                      QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

                      Exactly Why The Jets were the Coolest Team in the NFL under Rex, but Bowles is the man-see Arians speech:

                      http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...x-in-town.html


                      http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...e-for-you.html

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                      • It's right, the last few yards and the TD really didn't matter because the Bengals didn't care what was happening on that play as time was expiring. It was purely a stat padding play. And the QB rating is one of the most useless statistics in football, so there's no sense in using it. Did Chad have a bad game? No. Was it his fault we lost? No. But as hcbrad said, the season at this point is lost. I see no reason not to see what we have in Clemens. Why not bench D-Rob and Vilma? It's not like we have any younger starters behind them and we need to see what kind of ability they have and figure out if we need to make an investment in that position in the draft. Is it a bit of a double standard? Sure. But that's what comes with playing the most important position on a football team. Does Chad have much help? No, but at this point it appears that a change of scenery is best for him and the team needs to figure out what we're doing in the future. It's not like we're going to be able to put a team around him where he's in a position to succeed any time soon, so we may as well put him in one of those situations now and start to build our team around another quarterback. At this point, we just need to figure out who that guy is.

                        Kenny Watson gashing us for over 100 yards? I'm surprised that you guys are surprised. Disgusted, perhaps. But surprised, why? We get run all over for tons of yards every week, there's no reason for things to be different just because we're playing against Kenny Watson. He's the Bengals change of pace guy, and was able to get through some holes and give them a bit of a spark. Their line (a solid one) did a pretty good job blocking us, and Watson picked up some yardage. It's also tough to stop the run when you have to respect one of the best passing games in the league, and one that does a great job throwing the deep ball at that.

                        Being a bit of a Bengals fan myself (the Jets come first, but my dad is a Bengals fan so I've grown to like them over the years...) I do know a bit about this Cincinnati team. They're poorly coached, make stupid plays at the worst times, have a ton of penalties, and practically try to give away games. Plus they've been ravaged by injuries. Someone made a comment about trying to trade Vilma to them because Schlegel is starting. For anyone that's been paying attention, the Bengals linebackers have basically all just dropped dead. Ahmad Brooks, their starting MLB has been out for awhile, as has their starting SLB Rashad Jeanty. Behind Jeanty, Eric Henderson got hurt and went on injury reserve. After Henderson, Lamar Marshall got hurt and went on injury reserve. They now have defensive end Robert Geathers who never played linebacker before, EVER, starting at SLB. So yeah, they have trouble at linebacker, but they've essentially been decimated at the position. Beyond the fact that David Pollack (SLB) and Odell Thurman (MLB) are each unable to play for their own reason (injury and being a moron). Once their guys on the strong side get healthy, they'll draft a weakside linebacker and let Brooks who has unbelievable potential start at MLB. And if they keep up playing terribly, they'll be picking right behind us, and I doubt Vilma will be valued that high anyways.

                        But looking at my above statement, we should have been able to beat this team. Their defensive line isn't as bad as most think, so running the ball unless you get some big plays isn't all that successful. Plus they stacked the box against Pennington and Jones. But the thing is, and I knew it was going to happen (I thought it was going to be Leon Hall to be honest, because he has better hand than Joseph, but still...), Chad threw a pick 6. He picked a bad time to throw an out off of his back foot and Jonathan Joseph took it to the house. He was put in a bad situation by the defense, but it was quite possible for him to come back and tie the game against a poor defense that has a couple of corners with good hands. Was the play call questionable? Sure. But do you have to make that throw? Not really. Maybe Clemens brings us back and ties the game, he probably doesn't. But the fact of the matter is we lost to a team that gave us many chances to win, and made some big mistakes along the way.

                        For one, we are a team that cannot finish games, and some of that has to come back on Mangini. He runs hard practices and I have to believe guys get tired out and that influences our inability to finish on game day. We didn't block as well and didn't play defense as well in the second half, and whatever the reason is for our inability to finish, it needs to get fixed.

                        To go with coaching, the play calling on both sides of the ball sucked. We have no pass rush and our corners can't cover forever, if the Bengals took more than one shot downfield this game we would have gotten absolutely smoked and wouldn't even be complaining about this loss because we would've stood no chance at all of winning. And for playing against a team with one of their starting linebackers, a backup, and a defensive end that never played linebacker before, we really should have been able to take advantage of that. Run the ball, get some playaction, suck Geathers up, maybe use the tight ends a little more and allow that to open up the field a bit, force Geathers and Schlegel to run around and cover some guys. Our playcalling on that end sucked. Not taking shots downfield, it's a problem but I doubt it would have worked as well as it did early on. And in such a back and forth game, we couldn't risk a turnover. I'm sure there were some plays designed to get downfield with a fallback route, but they just weren't open. That said, because deep playaction plays may not work with our blocking issues up front, we should've run some double moves. O'Neal almost always gets burned on those, and though Joseph and Hall are talented they're young and prone to mistakes.

                        Also, two costly penalties on Revis really, REALLY killed us. Both continued drives that probably should have ended, and resulted in touchdowns. The first call was questionable, but the second one was obvious and a stupid play by our young corner. You could say he cost us the game.

                        It's obvious we're a team in upheaval. Justin McCareins is essentially gone, Vilma and D-Rob were in and out of yesterday's game, Chris Baker got left home after making comments, Andre Dyson and Coleman/Smith got benched, we got away from running the ball with Jones, we can't decide what to do with Leon Washington, Brad Smith is playing more receiver than before and actually getting balls thrown to him instead of running gadget plays, and all sorts of guys are getting looks on both lines to try and make things work for us. Also, was I just seeing things or did David Harris line up at OLB on occasion?

                        We're a team in transition, and in the midst of a lost season. Coaching needs to improve, players need to care, and we need to start preparing for next season and seeing what we have in some unproven players that haven't gotten much play time. Does that mean just Pennington, or even Pennington? No. Why not let Jacob Bender get a few starts in? If he shows some potential, we only need to look at LG or RT in the draft next year. David Harris should be playing almost all the time. Continue to give Brad Smith more reps at receiver, maybe he can replace Coles when he retires and we don't need to draft a replacement. Maybe Mosely can be a solid contributor for us on the defensive line. At this point we need to work some guys in so we can figure out what personnel changes we need to make for next year. And the coaching really needs to improve, what was once a strength really is not a strength anymore, and Mangini is losing this team.

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                        • ^^^^^^^^^^^

                          Excellent post



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                          • I agree with a lot of your points dezra. I think the best point which i completely forgot about is Jacob Bender...Why not try him at RT or LG for a few games to see if it sparks our running game (his specialty) and perhaps helps our passing game. Another great point was CJ Mosley I think although he is not the answer he is an upgrade from Shaun Ellis in the 34 (I think Ellis is good but he's undersized for our system)

                            On Trading Vilma to the Bengals yeah I know theyre decimated by injuries in the LB core, but they need a proven guy in a 43 who can not be a jackass and stay out of a holding cell. (Also Vilma is very durbale look at my post on his streak that was broken going back to the 1st game of last season of playing every play every game) I guess I was just postulating as to the idea of trading Vilma to a team with a 43 who needs LBs.

                            On QB Rating being worthless...I disagree to an extent. Though it is a skewed statistic it does take into account several important factors....TDs, INTs, Comp %, Yrds, ETC...I think while the number itself for a game or 2 can become based off of garbage stats angainst garbage teams, for a career that does not happen...Its a good barometer for making up a range of QBs like I said Rex Grossman has a career rating of 69. That is a certain kind of QB and the difference between a 69 and 71 is null but its the same range. Essentially, what Im saying is that QB rating takes into account a body of work and puts QBs into classes, when you have a career rating in the low 70s for three years you probably should be benched (Grossman, Testaverde) When you are on pace to have your best statistical year and your QB rating is in the upper 80s theres obviously more going on. I guess I dont have a problem with benching Chad (at the right time perhaps with others benchings) as long as people realized the entire team (esp def) is playing poorly.

                            I think from now on the commetns on the games should look for bright spots in the future. Like I said I thought Elam looked good, hard hitter who can run...yea he whiffed on a tackle that would have stopped a 1st down and changed a td to a fg but other than that I saw some life in him (Elam and Rhodes...and you have good depth) but then again I dont know much about him other than that one game (Side note on that play where Elam blitzed on the run and missed the tackle...did anyone notice the MLBs Barton and Harris...Barton called an all out blitz (on a draw play, so a good call) and put both his arms in the air and flew them down a second before the snap count...despite the trade rumors I think he could be the constant in our ILB core next year, hes big, mean and seems to know how to get it done in this system.

                            Im gonna try and stick to who should we be drafting bc Im pretty sure thats what Mike Tannenbaum is thinking right now
                            QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

                            Exactly Why The Jets were the Coolest Team in the NFL under Rex, but Bowles is the man-see Arians speech:

                            http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...x-in-town.html


                            http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/...e-for-you.html

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                            • I guess the QB rating has value because it tells you if a QB is playing poorly. My view is, a low QB rating = the QB is not playing well BUT a high QB rating does not = the QB is playing well. There's a lot of other factors in there that help determine if the QB is playing well.

                              By the way, for the record Bender is listed at LG behind Clarke on the depth chart but is not listed at right tackle anywhere, so I think we will address RT in the draft but may not address LG until maybe the fourth or fifth round (we do have an extra fourth after the Kendall trade) and let whoever we choose compete with Bender (who will have an extra year of experience over whoever we draft) for the starting spot. I do think we should give him some play time now though. Regardless the guard position should be addressed in the draft, for depth if nothing else, on the second day IMO.

                              For the Bengals, I think the trade would be nice for both teams (Vilma inside, move Brooks outside, and draft a WLB early) but I don't know what the exchange would be. Not sure what the Bengals would be able to give us that we would want, as it looks like they're moving to a high draft pick, and I don't know if they want to give up a top 10 pick for Vilma. If they end up improving and end up in the teens, perhaps they decide to deal their first and a future second or third. Who knows. The one thing that makes the Bengals appealing is they have an offense that's elite and capable of taking them places, but the defense could use a quick fix, thus they may decide that they don't want to wait on draft picks and would rather have a guy like Vilma that can step in right away. The big issue would be whether or not they feel comfortable moving Brooks from MLB after he has spent so much time learning the position. It's worth considering, and I think we may deal him somewhere, but I'm not positive where.

                              However, I did have one thought on draft day and wanted to know what everyone thought. At the top of the draft, there isn't really anybody of value worth taking for us. We have also had a good trade relationship with the Cowboys. Jerry Jones likes to make things happen and has two first round picks. A trade up to draft a player, McFadden or Kenny Phillips in particular, could be likely, and we could be the team they look to deal with. Looking at the pick value chart, if the draft happened today we would have the 4th pick (1800) and the Cowboys would have have picks 15 (1050, via Cleveland) and 31 (600). That leaves a 150 point difference. There's a few ways to make this up. Just for fun, lets say we take this year's second (276) and give them a fourth (100) and the 6th (25.8). This leaves us with 2 first round picks (middle of the first and late first), 2 second round picks (early and late second), and early third round pick, a fourth round pick (assuming we get the 4th from Washington from the Kendall deal, mid-late 4th), an early fifth round pick, no sixth round pick, and an early seventh round pick. This gives us 5 first day picks to address major needs (RT, DE, NT (value?), OLB) and other possible needs that may pop up (WR?, S?, RB?, TE?) as well as a #2 corner which I think most would agree we need. I've got to go to class right now so I can't do a mock like this, but I think I'll work something out later...

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                              • im pretty sure we only get a 5th this year and if he meets the conditions itll be a 4th the following years draft becuase i dont think the skins have one or something along those lines. But, if the cowboys wanna move up than by all means. It is a very deep draft, but it isn't very top heavy.

                                "When it's third and ten, you can take the milk drinkers and I'll take the whiskey drinkers every time."

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