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  • Originally posted by Ness
    I had a dream scenario of having Goldson as our strong safety and bringing in Atogwe to play more of a free safety role. But I suppose he became a free agent after the draft right? By then it looks like the coaches already had their plans set. It would have been a little crowded with Michael Lewis, Curtis Taylor, Reggie Smith, Dashon Goldson, and Taylor Mays. And it's really hard to argue against with what the coaches are doing too. I could see from the standpoint that they may want to build consistency with the people they have and give the young players an opportunity to prove themselves (wish that logic translated to the wide receivers).

    Let's not forget though that Goldson had a decent year last season, but it was just that...decent. Honestly he seems more like a strong safety than a free safety. He's probably looking for a massive deal and I really wouldn't want the 49ers to break the bank yet seeing as he's really not an established player in the NFL yet. And from the reports he hasn't been making the buzz he was last offseason in camp. I know training camp hasn't started yet, but I'm just saying. We need to get Vernon Davis extended though. I think he's proved his worth.

    As for Manny Lawson, I suppose we could trade him. Like I mentioned earlier I really don't see him as a hot commodity and don't think he ever will be...at least in a 3-4. But the good thing is that he knows the system and is a decent OLB for us. Even if he has a good year, he'll probably want to bounce. And if he has a poor one we're most likely not going to retain him anyways. I doubt we can get anything better than a 4th round selection for him at this point. He knows the system and this is a vital year for us...might as well keep him.
    Atogwe became a UFA on June 1st and was just re-signed by the Rams. I agree with what you're saying but only to a point. Lewis is a veteran who's making $5m or so this year plus he's injury prone. Taylor is a special teamer at best thus far. Smith could become a starter in the future but as of right now, he's a backup and special teamer. Mays is a rookie so when you think about it, the only starting safety with experience and in his prime is Goldson which is why I would have signed Atogwe and then release Lewis which would have evened out the money paid to Atogwe. Atogwe would have also been insurance in case Goldson was to leave as an UFA in 2011 which would have given us a Mays/Atogwe combination. Worse case scenario is Mays and Goldson starting (in 2011) with Atogwe, Smith and Taylor as the backups. Adding in the questionable future of Clements and the fact that we have veterans in James and Paymah under ne year deals, Atogwe could have always come in as the nickel or dime back which I think would have made our defense even stronger. I dont see Lewis being back in 2011 especially if he gets injured this season or suffers another concussion which if you add Goldson possibly being gone as an UFA, im not happy at all going into the 2011 off-season with a second year player in Mays along with Smith and Taylor competing for the other starting spot.

    Goldson had a good season considering that he was behind Roman the first two years of his career and since he started over Roman, that says that the coaching staff was more comfortable with him than they were with Roman. Goldson had 94 tackles (76 solo), 2 sacks, 4 interceptions and 3 forced fumbles in his first full season as a starter. I think thats pretty damn good. I dont go by "buzz" or anything like that during the off-season because it doesnt mean anything. As for Davis, he's next on my list to get extended but at the same time, he's ONLY had ONE good season. The only difference is that he plays on offense and was the focal point of the offense. Davis didnt do anything either until last season which was his fourth. If Davis and Goldson were the opposite, we would be saying the same thing but with it being reversed. In the end, I think that both are definitely worth extending and while I have Davis ahead of Goldson, Goldson is just as important because he's our playmaking FS and with the uncertain future's of Clements and Lewis, keeping Goldson would definitely be a good thing. And you talked about consistency (and continuity should be included too) with our young safeties. Shouldnt Goldson be a part of that young consistency too?

    As for Lawson, everyone here knows I want to extend him but if the front office knows that they're going to let him leave no matter what, mine as well trade him for something instead of letting him walk for free. Always better to get something in return instead of nothing at all.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dan77733 View Post
      Always better to get something in return instead of nothing at all.
      Well, they have to have a trade partner to begin with. And, really, why trade him now? Make him play out the season and if he walks, so be it. I'd rather him play and contribute in games than trade him for some 4th round pick.

      More importantly, teams know that he's going to likely be let go, why sign-and-trade for him? Then you are paying for him twice.

      Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

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      • I think Goldson has done enough to solidify his spot. He's our starting FS in week one. I'd be really shocked if hes not.


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        • Originally posted by binary View Post
          I'm not worried about losing Goldson at all. He had a couple superb, unbelievable games, a bunch of average ones, and a bunch of terrible ones. He has to improve significantly IMO. I'm not worried about the Safety situation much.
          Dont forget that it was Goldson's first full season in general and as a starter. Cant expect him to be Ed Reed or something. Personally, I think that he played good and better than most expected him to play. As for you not being worried about the safety position (and like others here are about the OLB position) this is something I will never ever understand because its NOT a problem now but subtract Goldson, possibly Lewis (and even Clements too) and then say for arguments sake that Smith flops or gets injure yet again. We wuld then have a second year player in Mays and Taylor. Sorry but im not confident about that starting combination at all. I personally think that like OLB, FS should be taken care of now before it ever becomes a problem. I'm one of those people that likes to eliminate future problems before they actually become problems. People always wait until the problem happens and then say, "oops...............I guess that we should have taken care of that before it became a problem". DUH. Think of it this way - would you rather make sure that the potential future problem doesnt become a problem period or would you rather take the chance of having a revolving door at FS like we did at RT for the last few seasons?

          Originally posted by Madirishman
          I would prioritize other re-signings over Goldson at this point. He needs to put more in tape through this season, especially with his rumored desired salary. I say lock VD up next and take the wait and see approach with the young Safeties they have (Goldson, Mays, Smith, Taylor) to see who is worth the money. I think that Smith still has a chance to be very good.
          Just curious, excluding Davis, who would you put ahead of Goldson? Should subtract Mays from that list because he isnt going anywhere for at least four seasons and hasnt even been signed to his rookie contract yet. And quite honestly, Taylor just seems to me to be a career special teamer and actually reminds me of Keith Lewis. As for Smith, im hoping that he does do something and becomes good but he was moved to CB as a rookie because no one thought that he could play safety, was moved back because everyone knew that he couldnt play CB and after that, gets injured. I'm not going to be high on a player that has only 7 tackles in two seasons and even when healthy, was barely on the field. Excluding Mays and deciding between Goldson, Smith and Taylor is a no-brainer in my opinion. And even if by some chance, Smith becomes good enough to replace Goldson, thats where one of them becomes trade bait. I just think that if the team lets Goldson (and Lawson) leave in 2011, they're not going to be as easy to replace as everyone here thinks.

          Originally posted by YAYareaRB
          I dunno.. I think Goldson is 2nd priority under VD. Dude is a flat out baller getting 90+ tackles as a safety and 7 turnovers. We haven't had a safety like that in a long time and we need to recognize his value early.
          Holy crap!!! Me and YAY actually agree on something. The world must be coming to an end. LOL. Next, me and Borat will actually agree with one another. LOL. Joking aside, Goldson was a playmaker at FS and I think the last playmaking FS we had was Merton Hanks if I remember correctly and that was over a decade ago. Plus, like I said above, 2009 was Goldson's first full season in general and as a starter. Cant expect him to be Ed Reed.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Brent
            Well, they have to have a trade partner to begin with. And, really, why trade him now? Make him play out the season and if he walks, so be it. I'd rather him play and contribute in games than trade him for some 4th round pick.

            More importantly, teams know that he's going to likely be let go, why sign-and-trade for him? Then you are paying for him twice.
            Yeah, I know that they need a team willing to trade for him but at the same time, dont know unless you inquire or as I like to look at it - send out feelers to see if there's any takers.

            True but happens if he doesnt contribute and he actually declines? Then, he's not worth anything. Yeah, you're somewhat paying for him twice but if has a great season and becomes an UFA, his price will go up and cost the team that could have traded for him for less a lot more in the short term and long term. Not only that but the reason you acquire a player via trade is so you dont have to compete with other teams who go after him which also drives up the player's price. It's 50/50 either way but let's say that the battle between Lawson and Brook is close but the starting spot is given to Lawson because he's been there for four seasons even though the coaching staff may actually want to see Brooks play to see what he can do as a starter, wouldnt it be better to trade Lawson for a draft pick and start Brooks especially if thats what the coaching staff prefers to do but doesnt?

            Oh well, just have to wait and see but I do have a feeling that Lawson will be traded before the regular season.

            Comment


            • holy **** dan agrees with me..

              ahemm

              ummmmm goldson now sucks in my eyes and shouldn't be resigned ever... in the world


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              • ^^^ LMFAO.

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                • Originally posted by Brent View Post
                  Well, they have to have a trade partner to begin with. And, really, why trade him now? Make him play out the season and if he walks, so be it. I'd rather him play and contribute in games than trade him for some 4th round pick.

                  More importantly, teams know that he's going to likely be let go, why sign-and-trade for him? Then you are paying for him twice.
                  Does Manny Lawson even really want to be here? I see him leaving no matter what happens. If he has a poor season him and the 49ers will probably both want to part ways. If he has a monster season, the guy will probably want to test the free agent market. I guess we could extend him now, but I'm really not in favor of that scenario seeing as he hasn't really doing anything to warrant another long term deal.

                  Originally posted by dan77733 View Post

                  Holy crap!!! Me and YAY actually agree on something. The world must be coming to an end. LOL. Next, me and Borat will actually agree with one another. LOL. Joking aside, Goldson was a playmaker at FS and I think the last playmaking FS we had was Merton Hanks if I remember correctly and that was over a decade ago. Plus, like I said above, 2009 was Goldson's first full season in general and as a starter. Cant expect him to be Ed Reed.
                  Lance Schulters was pretty good for us back at the lower end of the decade before he went to Tennessee. But yes, it's been a long time. Goldson still has a lot to prove though and honestly he seems more like a strong safety to me.

                  Originally posted by dan77733 View Post
                  Goldson had a good season considering that he was behind Roman the first two years of his career and since he started over Roman, that says that the coaching staff was more comfortable with him than they were with Roman. Goldson had 94 tackles (76 solo), 2 sacks, 4 interceptions and 3 forced fumbles in his first full season as a starter. I think thats pretty damn good. I dont go by "buzz" or anything like that during the off-season because it doesnt mean anything. As for Davis, he's next on my list to get extended but at the same time, he's ONLY had ONE good season. The only difference is that he plays on offense and was the focal point of the offense. Davis didnt do anything either until last season which was his fourth. If Davis and Goldson were the opposite, we would be saying the same thing but with it being reversed. In the end, I think that both are definitely worth extending and while I have Davis ahead of Goldson, Goldson is just as important because he's our playmaking FS and with the uncertain future's of Clements and Lewis, keeping Goldson would definitely be a good thing. And you talked about consistency (and continuity should be included too) with our young safeties. Shouldnt Goldson be a part of that young consistency too?
                  Goldson had a decent season to me. It wasn't lights out and he certainly wasn't playing at an All-Pro level. But it was respectable. Then again though, it was only one season. I think he still has a lot to prove. As for someone like Vernon Davis, he has to prove he wasn't just a one year wonder as well...but when you think about the inconsistency we've had on offense for years along with the terrible quarterback play it wasn't surprising that Davis didn't have great numbers for the first few seasons of his career. I'm sure he's worked on his own game as well, but he really had a lot of obstacles that were out of his hands that he somehow had to work through.
                  Last edited by Ness; 06-28-2010, 03:46 AM.

                  "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
                  -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
                  Originally posted by Borat
                  Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

                  Comment


                  • Goldson and Lawson are just gonna depend on this year. If both of them play great, it's bye bye Goldson though. I'm hoping Manny plays great and we keep him; kind of indifferent about Goldson....both have to show improvement.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ness
                      Does Manny Lawson even really want to be here? I see him leaving no matter what happens. If he has a poor season him and the 49ers will probably both want to part ways. If he has a monster season, the guy will probably want to test the free agent market. I guess we could extend him now, but I'm really not in favor of that scenario seeing as he hasn't really doing anything to warrant another long term deal.

                      Lance Schulters was pretty good for us back at the lower end of the decade before he went to Tennessee. But yes, it's been a long time. Goldson still has a lot to prove though and honestly he seems more like a strong safety to me.

                      Goldson had a decent season to me. It wasn't lights out and he certainly wasn't playing at an All-Pro level. But it was respectable. Then again though, it was only one season. I think he still has a lot to prove. As for someone like Vernon Davis, he has to prove he wasn't just a one year wonder as well...but when you think about the inconsistency we've had on offense for years along with the terrible quarterback play it wasn't surprising that Davis didn't have great numbers for the first few seasons of his career. I'm sure he's worked on his own game as well, but he really had a lot of obstacles that were out of his hands that he somehow had to work through.
                      Lawson has said himself that he wants a long term deal from SF which is why he stayed away from all the OTA's and mini-camps that werent mandatory. Everyone talks about Lawson (and Goldson) having to prove themselves before being given extensions but yet but did Haralson, Robinson, Walker and a few others do to earn extensions? To me, this point isnt valid and should be voided because after all, if its based on how well Lawson has done, he should have been extended before Harlason.

                      I forgot about Schulters. He had a great 2001 season but I wasnt upset when he left because we replaced him with Tony Parrish so I was a happy camper. Either way though, in one season Goldson has outplayed every previous FS since Schulters and has done so with one full starting season and while Goldson may be better suited for SS (even though Brent says that theres little to no difference between SS and FS in Manusky's defense), he played good at FS and with us drafting Mays, I dont see Goldson being moved to SS any time soon if ever.

                      Our defense was better than our offense but it wasnt great either but the potential is there for the defense to be great as long as management doesnt screw it up. Amazing, no one is worried about losing Goldson and/or Lawson except me because when you subtract them and possibly others next off-season which includes but isnt limited to ILB Takeo Spikes, CB Nate Clements and SS Michael Lewis, our defense all of a sudden becomes a shell of its former self. And its not like Lawson and/or Goldson are going to be 30 or older, these guys are 25 or so and just hitting their prime. You dont let players like that leave especially when you dont have anyone who can step right in and replace either of them. I know some here want to see Franklin get extended and that to me is a bad idea for several reasons including the fact that he'll be 30 before the season starts, is playing under a pretty cheap contract of $7m or so when you compare it to others and history shows that when you pay that DT/NT, it comes back to bite you in the ass more times than not. There's a far greater chance that Franklin declines over either Lawson or Goldson yet im the only one that sees that. And yes, I know that the NT is the most important position in the 3-4 but at the same time, he's going to be 30 years old, not 25 and as im sure everyone here knows, players normally decline once they turn 30 and get older.

                      Originally posted by binary View Post
                      Goldson and Lawson are just gonna depend on this year. If both of them play great, it's bye bye Goldson though. I'm hoping Manny plays great and we keep him; kind of indifferent about Goldson....both have to show improvement.
                      Its amazing that you think both need to show improvement yet you seem pretty confident in Reggie Smith who's barely even stepped on the field. Why is that? And Haralson isnt any better than Lawson and yet, he was extended and I didnt hear anyone saying that he had to prove himself beforehand.


                      In general, I know that its not true but I sometimes get the feeling that you guys here are so used to seeing the 49ers being average at best over the last eight or so years that its almost as if you guys want to lose good young players just so we can stay being average or worse. And as far as the money aspect goes, any money that's paid to Lawson and/or Goldson would be offset by releasing Clements and Lewis after 2010.
                      Last edited by dan77733; 06-28-2010, 12:47 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Ness View Post
                        Does Manny Lawson even really want to be here? I see him leaving no matter what happens. If he has a poor season him and the 49ers will probably both want to part ways. If he has a monster season, the guy will probably want to test the free agent market. I guess we could extend him now, but I'm really not in favor of that scenario seeing as he hasn't really doing anything to warrant another long term deal.
                        What I am saying is that I would rather him play in SF (have a good season) and leave than him get traded for some mid-round pick. At least if he plays well that is the compensation for him leaving. Am I the only one getting that concept? I would rather have what he could contribute in a game more than some mid-rounder pick.

                        Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011

                        Comment


                        • As much as it pains me to say, there's no way I see Lawson in a Niner uniform after this season. Its not that Lawson is a bad player but its a numbers game and right now there are two players who the Niners feel take presedence over Lawson and that's Goldson and VD. You can't resign everyone and though Lawson is a good OLB, he hasn't been the pass-rusher the Niners' envisioned. And with Brooks resigned at modest but fair price, he'll be looked at as the heir apparent at the LOLB spot in 2011. If Manny were smart, he'd go to a 4-3 team and flourish as a SAM backer.

                          Its almost comical to me how fans can say Goldson is a better SS. I know the guy can hit, but he doesn't posses the physicality and nor the strength to play in the box. Coming up and supplying a hit is one thing, but constantly taking on FBs and weeding through trash to get to ball carriers is not something that is a strong suit for Goldson. He is a FS, point blank period. His best asset is his range and ball skills....not his run support. You want a guy like that as your centerfielder, not close to the box. He has great range and doesn't let passes get behind him. He needs to be more of a sure tackler but the guy made 92 tackles last year so Im not gonna complain too much. He struggled last year taking bad angles to the ball, which led to some huge pass plays for opposing offenses. But thats part of learning how to play at a high level and I suspect he will be much improved in this area this year. And year of experience under his belt should do wonders for his overall play in 2010. One thing about Goldson that gets overlooked. His and Ed Reed's stats as first year starters are almost identical. Reed is considered the best FS in the league......just something else to consider. Goldson's got a bright future ahead of him if he stays humble and keeps grinding.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Brent View Post
                            What I am saying is that I would rather him play in SF (have a good season) and leave than him get traded for some mid-round pick. At least if he plays well that is the compensation for him leaving. Am I the only one getting that concept? I would rather have what he could contribute in a game more than some mid-rounder pick.

                            We're not gonna trade Lawson. His skillset is too valuable to us this year. Next year is a different story. We would be hurting ourselves, not improving, if we dealt Lawson. If it were going to happen, it would have happened by now. I expect Lawson to have a solid year for us.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by VAfy-ya View Post
                              As much as it pains me to say, there's no way I see Lawson in a Niner uniform after this season. Its not that Lawson is a bad player but its a numbers game and right now there are two players who the Niners feel take presedence over Lawson and that's Goldson and VD. You can't resign everyone and though Lawson is a good OLB, he hasn't been the pass-rusher the Niners' envisioned. And with Brooks resigned at modest but fair price, he'll be looked at as the heir apparent at the LOLB spot in 2011. If Manny were smart, he'd go to a 4-3 team and flourish as a SAM backer.
                              Yeah but if Lawson has a breakout year and shows that he can rush the passer, then you have to resign him over Goldson. OLB > FS.

                              The argument for Goldson being a FS has been discussed at length at this board. Basically, our biggest weakness is coverage in the secondary; run support really isn't a big issue. By moving Goldson to SS and bringing in a coverage FS, you increase the effectiveness of the coverage by a substantial margin... (which is why our FO had such a hard-on for Nate Allen). It also would mean no more of Michael Lewis' non-covering arse. Of course, all this was before we drafted Taylor Mays.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Brent View Post
                                What I am saying is that I would rather him play in SF (have a good season) and leave than him get traded for some mid-round pick. At least if he plays well that is the compensation for him leaving. Am I the only one getting that concept? I would rather have what he could contribute in a game more than some mid-rounder pick.
                                I understand with what you're saying there. I think I said I was in favor of that scenario earlier. The guy has experience and is an adequate OLB for us right now because he knows the system and knows how to work with it. He'll also probably be trying his best to play at a high level because he knows this might be his last year with the ball club and he'll basically be on a season-long audition for another team.

                                Originally posted by VAfy-ya View Post
                                Its almost comical to me how fans can say Goldson is a better SS. I know the guy can hit, but he doesn't posses the physicality and nor the strength to play in the box. Coming up and supplying a hit is one thing, but constantly taking on FBs and weeding through trash to get to ball carriers is not something that is a strong suit for Goldson. He is a FS, point blank period. His best asset is his range and ball skills....not his run support. You want a guy like that as your centerfielder, not close to the box. He has great range and doesn't let passes get behind him. He needs to be more of a sure tackler but the guy made 92 tackles last year so Im not gonna complain too much. He struggled last year taking bad angles to the ball, which led to some huge pass plays for opposing offenses. But thats part of learning how to play at a high level and I suspect he will be much improved in this area this year. And year of experience under his belt should do wonders for his overall play in 2010. One thing about Goldson that gets overlooked. His and Ed Reed's stats as first year starters are almost identical. Reed is considered the best FS in the league......just something else to consider. Goldson's got a bright future ahead of him if he stays humble and keeps grinding.
                                I don't think it's comical at all. Goldson's best asset is his tackling ability and his physical prowess (which isn't elite, but it's decent). But his range? I don't think so. He's not going to be able to keep up pace with wide receivers one on one and play the field deep and make a big play like an Ed Reed or Darren Sharper. I think the only deep play he had last year was an interception against Seneca Wallace which was more of a tipped pass from another 49ers defender. And he blew a good amount of coverages last season. I'm just not convinced yet. We shall see this upcoming season. I think Goldson has the intensity to play more of a strong safety role, just like Bob Sanders has.
                                Last edited by Ness; 06-28-2010, 03:50 PM.

                                "Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
                                -San Francisco 49ers: Five Time Super Bowl Champions-
                                Originally posted by Borat
                                Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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