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  • #16
    Originally posted by Caddy View Post
    I think it is hard to say that guys like Black and Hayes are special teamers only. Particularly due to the fact that they have received very little playing time behind a hall of famer in derrick brooks and a guy like Cato June who really suited the system we were playing. Both of the guys are young and as of right now are really unproven. I think before dismissing them altogether they should at least get a chance to prove their ability on the field.
    Thats not what I said at all, Caddy. I said that their ST prowess made Koutouvides expendable because he's been a ST maven his whole career. We don't need that at LB because we have two guys who are worlds more athletic than him, younger than him, and arguably better on ST than him. Black is an outright stud on ST and Hayes was too before he got injured, having our only blocked punt in years.

    I'm not writing them off by any means. I like Black for the future, and Hayes looked decent last year but (as I mentioned) I don't know how much he fits into Bates' newer, bigger scheme when he was thought of as really small even for Monte's under-sized T2.

    Originally posted by Caddy View Post
    With Ruud, Black, Crowell, Hayes, Phillips, Hayward and Koutovides I think we have a decent group of guys and adding a fourth young player would be overkill.
    I think we're looking at Black at SSLB and, obviously, Ruud at Mike. Crowell is the wildcard, as he could come in and be a quality LB or he could be a highly touted FA flop like we've seen all too many. On weakside, you're looking at Hayes and Flip, one of whom might not be big enough to be an every down LB and one of whom is a Pro Bowl caliber safety on a tryout at the position who may not stick, ESPECIALLY if Sabby doesn't play up to par in his spot. I think Freeman would have been much better value and been an ideal LB to groom at weakside. But alas he went to Chicago, so it's a pretty moot point. But you can't discuss enough moot points in the off-season. ;)

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    • #17
      What makes Freeman a moot point is the fact that we're moving Flip to LB. It's a number crunch and we have enough depth at the position. I'd be very happy if we kept Phillips at SS and drafted Freeman, but the coaches seem fixated on moving Phillips in the box even though he's done fine for himself in coverage. He also provides a huge boost in run support and we downgrade 2 positions by moving him to WLB and starting Piscitelli.

      In short, I'm happy with the way the draft went but I'm extremely confused and disappointed with our offseason moves prior to it.

      sig by BoneKrusher

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      • #18
        Originally posted by etk View Post
        What makes Freeman a moot point is the fact that we're moving Flip to LB. It's a number crunch and we have enough depth at the position. I'd be very happy if we kept Phillips at SS and drafted Freeman, but the coaches seem fixated on moving Phillips in the box even though he's done fine for himself in coverage. He also provides a huge boost in run support and we downgrade 2 positions by moving him to WLB and starting Piscitelli.

        In short, I'm happy with the way the draft went but I'm extremely confused and disappointed with our offseason moves prior to it.
        I thought we did a good job in the off-season, at least on offense, defensivly I can see your point, bringing flip upto the LB position is undoubtedly a risk, at least to us the fans, but look at it this way, if anyone knows about player personnel in our secondry, it's Rah, and am I right in thinking that last season was Sabbys first real season after getting injured his rookie year? I know both players were on the field together at times, and Sabby spotted flip "as and when".

        I have every confidence in both players, and alot of it comes from our HC and DC.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by etk View Post
          What makes Freeman a moot point is the fact that we're moving Flip to LB. It's a number crunch and we have enough depth at the position. I'd be very happy if we kept Phillips at SS and drafted Freeman, but the coaches seem fixated on moving Phillips in the box even though he's done fine for himself in coverage. He also provides a huge boost in run support and we downgrade 2 positions by moving him to WLB and starting Piscitelli.

          In short, I'm happy with the way the draft went but I'm extremely confused and disappointed with our offseason moves prior to it.
          I agree. I just don't think the move is as permanent as you make it out to be. I think it's just that we took Sabby when Flip wasn't playing well, we like the guy and want to see him on the field. BUT, if he doesn't develop immediately into a quality safety who can make a few plays then what good is it to have a better strong safety NOT at that position? It'd be like moving Talib to free safety and having a corner who wasn't his caliber move up into his spot.

          I think this is a tryout, as the staff thinks the risk/reward is worth it. What do we risk really by trying it? If Flip doesn't catch on at weak-side over the course of the off-season, I'm sure he'll be ready to go at safety when we're playing a lot of the same coverages and his responsibilities will be the same. We don't risk messing with Sabby's head because he's always been behind Flip and we're making him move to try and get Sabby PT. And a big reason we did the move in the first place was because we were thin at LB. You gotta remember that teams tryout a lot of ideas in the off-season that don't catch. Remember when we were going to use the rocket backfield all the time? I'm just saying I'd rather have:

          Black/Crowell
          Ruud Don't really care
          Freeman Hayes

          at LB with Flip back to his natural position going forward than what we're looking at now.

          Comment


          • #20
            I hope you're right about the tryout point.

            And I would prefer the scenario you listed at the bottom, but I think you're overrating Freeman a bit. He's like Lance Briggs, but a good notch below. Solid backer but an average athlete. Hayes has more upside and Crowell is probably more reliable from the start.

            I know you bring up the point about size (lack thereof) with Flip and Hayes, but Freeman is a better fit for our old defense, moreso than any LB on the roster. He would've been a good replacement for Brooks had we kept Kiffin and the T2.

            sig by BoneKrusher

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            • #21
              How about PT who just got released from the Rams, he plays weakside, would he fit in with our "new scheme"? if he did, he might be good insurance for flip?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by etk View Post
                I hope you're right about the tryout point.

                And I would prefer the scenario you listed at the bottom, but I think you're overrating Freeman a bit. He's like Lance Briggs, but a good notch below. Solid backer but an average athlete. Hayes has more upside and Crowell is probably more reliable from the start.

                I know you bring up the point about size (lack thereof) with Flip and Hayes, but Freeman is a better fit for our old defense, moreso than any LB on the roster. He would've been a good replacement for Brooks had we kept Kiffin and the T2.
                I do think he can become a poor man's Lance Briggs of sorts. Hayes has more upside, but until he gains about 15 lbs, I don't know that I can buy him as an every down linebacker in ANY scheme. I think he definitely has higher upside, and IIRC he's younger than Freeman, but the guy is tiny as it stands now. The size isn't so much of a concern for Flip, more so that we'd end up caving and using him at SS because he's (simply put) the best one on the roster.

                Freeman has very good bulk, and we're going to be using our WSLB for a lot of 1-on-1s with TEs and RBs like every other team now, as opposed to so much zone, so Freeman's abilities come in handy there. Plus, guys have an easier time coming from bigger programs. So while I believe he would have started behind Crowell had he come here, he would be ready to go quicker than some rooks. I just think he'd be a safer bet than the guy who weighs less than both our SSs and another guy who IS one of our SSs. If Hayes works out, great. But he's very young and very under-sized. I'd just want us to hedge our bets, get the best players, and not resort to moving our best players left on D to new positions...

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                • #23
                  I have a feeling Raheem saw first hand Sabby was ready to get more playing time, the guy is built like nobody we've ever had in our secondary, he's a big fast ballhawk who's had two years to learn - and that this was a factor in the move for Flip. He's finding a way to get his best players on the field, at the same time as giving younger players a chance to show what they've got. I think it's a pretty good coaching move. Remember Flip is 30 I believe. I like the competition brewing at LB - if Crowell returns to his pre-injury form, we're completely set at MLB and SLB, with a bunch of big athletic youngsters ready to fight for a spot.

                  I've seen people pigeonhole Black into the SLB spot, but if Crowell plays like he can, Black won't be getting too much time there, and he's got too much upside to sit behind Crowell, so I think he's going to be in the mix for WLB too. Between him, Hayes, and Flip, I like the idea of the position battle winner starting. Hence no need for LB in the draft, since it would also go against the sentiment that Raheem expressed, namely that there are some young talents who've been languishing down the depth chart who could benefit tremendously from getting quality playing time. I think so far they've done a great job balancing evaluating and giving opportunity to those already on our roster, with putting some extra pieces in place for the future.

                  Couple of thoughts about our 4th and 5th rounders. Kyle Moore led USC in sacks last year, let's not forget that. And he has a big frame to grow into if he needs to. I like the idea of a rotation between him, White and Wilkerson at LE, with the added versatility of moving Moore inside on passing downs with White/Wilkerson still outside. I don't think it's horrendously inappropriate to hope for a poor man's Justin Tuck. Imagine if the light continues to stay on for our previous 4th rounder, Dre Moore - our future D-line could look like Adams, Moore, Miller, Moore/Wilkerson on 1st and 2nd down, which looks pretty good to me. Throw into the interior rotation the new bulked up Greg Peterson (~310lbs) with Dre Moore's athleticism and Kyle Moore sliding in on passing downs and White/Wilkerson keeping each other fresh rushing the passer off the edge - I like how this could look a couple years from now. Remember everyone there except for White is relatively young.

                  Regarding Fulton, the 5th rounder, people are kidding themselves if they think we have depth on our O-line. We've got talent, sure, but Zuttah can't play more than one position at the same time. We are spoiled with having such a talented and versatile backup as him, but there are 5 positions on the O-line, and drafting an athletic big guy in the 5th who seems to really fit the ZBS we're trying to install seems to make sense to me.
                  Last edited by irishbucsfan; 05-10-2009, 09:35 AM.



                  "Frosties are corn flakes for people who can't face reality"

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by irishbucsfan View Post
                    Couple of thoughts about our 4th and 5th rounders. Kyle Moore led USC in sacks last year, let's not forget that.
                    Let's also not forget that he benefited tremendously from USC's blitzing LBs. Almost all of his sacks are covered on DraftParty's highlight video and he's usually unblocked or tackling the QB in pursuit. He doesn't beat his man 1on1 often in game situations.

                    sig by BoneKrusher

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by etk View Post
                      Let's also not forget that he benefited tremendously from USC's blitzing LBs. Almost all of his sacks are covered on DraftParty's highlight video and he's usually unblocked or tackling the QB in pursuit. He doesn't beat his man 1on1 often in game situations.
                      Yeah I think you hit the nail on head with his pursuit abilities.



                      "Frosties are corn flakes for people who can't face reality"

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by irishbucsfan View Post
                        I have a feeling Raheem saw first hand Sabby was ready to get more playing time, the guy is built like nobody we've ever had in our secondary, he's a big fast ballhawk who's had two years to learn - and that this was a factor in the move for Flip. He's finding a way to get his best players on the field, at the same time as giving younger players a chance to show what they've got. I think it's a pretty good coaching move. Remember Flip is 30 I believe. I like the competition brewing at LB - if Crowell returns to his pre-injury form, we're completely set at MLB and SLB, with a bunch of big athletic youngsters ready to fight for a spot.

                        I've seen people pigeonhole Black into the SLB spot, but if Crowell plays like he can, Black won't be getting too much time there, and he's got too much upside to sit behind Crowell, so I think he's going to be in the mix for WLB too. Between him, Hayes, and Flip, I like the idea of the position battle winner starting. Hence no need for LB in the draft, since it would also go against the sentiment that Raheem expressed, namely that there are some young talents who've been languishing down the depth chart who could benefit tremendously from getting quality playing time. I think so far they've done a great job balancing evaluating and giving opportunity to those already on our roster, with putting some extra pieces in place for the future.

                        Couple of thoughts about our 4th and 5th rounders. Kyle Moore led USC in sacks last year, let's not forget that. And he has a big frame to grow into if he needs to. I like the idea of a rotation between him, White and Wilkerson at LE, with the added versatility of moving Moore inside on passing downs with White/Wilkerson still outside. I don't think it's horrendously inappropriate to hope for a poor man's Justin Tuck. Imagine if the light continues to stay on for our previous 4th rounder, Dre Moore - our future D-line could look like Adams, Moore, Miller, Moore/Wilkerson on 1st and 2nd down, which looks pretty good to me. Throw into the interior rotation the new bulked up Greg Peterson (~310lbs) with Dre Moore's athleticism and Kyle Moore sliding in on passing downs and White/Wilkerson keeping each other fresh rushing the passer off the edge - I like how this could look a couple years from now. Remember everyone there except for White is relatively young.

                        Regarding Fulton, the 5th rounder, people are kidding themselves if they think we have depth on our O-line. We've got talent, sure, but Zuttah can't play more than one position at the same time. We are spoiled with having such a talented and versatile backup as him, but there are 5 positions on the O-line, and drafting an athletic big guy in the 5th who seems to really fit the ZBS we're trying to install seems to make sense to me.
                        Black has been at SSLB forever it seems. I don't see why they'd move him now. Especially given that, by the time his competition with Crowell is done with, so will the weakside job most likely. If it's done much sooner, we really wouldn't be encouraged to push him for PT elsewhere.

                        I still don't see much in Moore, and I really don't see this talk about him being an inside rusher. Saying he could be a poor man's Tuck is laughable at this point IMO. I'm about done with Peterson. He had potential coming in, but I can't see him being much more than a depth player. Dre was a real flop coming in, out of shape at camp and pushed around in pre-season. But I like what I'm hearing about him lately. He's got all the god-given skill and even showed flashes last year. Hopefully he can become our inside rush. But the thing is, I think we're drafting a DL high next year, so the line should see a shake-up.

                        We usually only keep 8 linemen on the roster. What would pass for good depth? Three young, starting caliber players? Go look at what other teams have or what we have at the other parts on the roster. We've got depth there, I don't think thats a big limb to go out on.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by etk View Post
                          Let's also not forget that he benefited tremendously from USC's blitzing LBs. Almost all of his sacks are covered on DraftParty's highlight video and he's usually unblocked or tackling the QB in pursuit. He doesn't beat his man 1on1 often in game situations.
                          Maybe so, but doesn't Bates run an aggressive defence in terms of blitzes etc?
                          I guess we moved up in the draft to get Moore for a reason?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dbtb135 View Post
                            Black has been at SSLB forever it seems. I don't see why they'd move him now. Especially given that, by the time his competition with Crowell is done with, so will the weakside job most likely. If it's done much sooner, we really wouldn't be encouraged to push him for PT elsewhere.

                            I still don't see much in Moore, and I really don't see this talk about him being an inside rusher. Saying he could be a poor man's Tuck is laughable at this point IMO. I'm about done with Peterson. He had potential coming in, but I can't see him being much more than a depth player. Dre was a real flop coming in, out of shape at camp and pushed around in pre-season. But I like what I'm hearing about him lately. He's got all the god-given skill and even showed flashes last year. Hopefully he can become our inside rush. But the thing is, I think we're drafting a DL high next year, so the line should see a shake-up.

                            We usually only keep 8 linemen on the roster. What would pass for good depth? Three young, starting caliber players? Go look at what other teams have or what we have at the other parts on the roster. We've got depth there, I don't think thats a big limb to go out on.
                            All I was saying about Black was that he's too talented physically to limit trying him at one spot. There's nothing stopping them from trying him at WLB at the same time, simply because if Crowell plays like he can he's the clear cut starter and it would be a shame to deny Black PT because he has another Pro-Bowler in front of him.

                            Regarding Kyle Moore, I said the ideal situation would be him developing into a poor man's Justin Tuck, in terms of how we use him. He's got the size and frame for it, and by all accounts he's a hard worker with a chip on his shoulder about how many USC players went ahead of him, which is usually a good combination. I'm not predicting anything at all, just fantasising a bit. Regarding Peterson and Dre Moore, the point is simply that we've got a good rotation going if they both keep their heads on.

                            With the O-line, my point was that outside of Zuttah we didn't have much in terms of servicable back ups. I think there's a James Lee or something backing up at LT, but that's still only two and I haven't heard much about him. Adding Fulton who fits our scheme well as an athletic 300-pounder improves our quality of depth significantly, if nothing else. Although he's relatively new to the position so has upside too.



                            "Frosties are corn flakes for people who can't face reality"

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by irishbucsfan View Post
                              All I was saying about Black was that he's too talented physically to limit trying him at one spot. There's nothing stopping them from trying him at WLB at the same time, simply because if Crowell plays like he can he's the clear cut starter and it would be a shame to deny Black PT because he has another Pro-Bowler in front of him.

                              Regarding Kyle Moore, I said the ideal situation would be him developing into a poor man's Justin Tuck, in terms of how we use him. He's got the size and frame for it, and by all accounts he's a hard worker with a chip on his shoulder about how many USC players went ahead of him, which is usually a good combination. I'm not predicting anything at all, just fantasising a bit. Regarding Peterson and Dre Moore, the point is simply that we've got a good rotation going if they both keep their heads on.

                              With the O-line, my point was that outside of Zuttah we didn't have much in terms of servicable back ups. I think there's a James Lee or something backing up at LT, but that's still only two and I haven't heard much about him. Adding Fulton who fits our scheme well as an athletic 300-pounder improves our quality of depth significantly, if nothing else. Although he's relatively new to the position so has upside too.
                              How do you see him getting reps at WSLB when he's in a competition with Crowell? Especially knowing they're going to give Flip a ton to see where he's at and get him more comfortable. You don't win camp competitons by not playing the position. Right now, he's in a fight with Crowell, who to my knowledge has never made a Pro Bowl.

                              Tuck had great quickness, technique, and production coming out of college. He added a ton of muscle and now he's hard to stop at either position. I don't see what in there Moore brings thats comparable at all. Tuck was a stud rusher at ND. Tuck was way more athletic. Until Moore bulks up his MM, or becomes a pass rusherat ANY position, much less multiple positions, the Tuck dreams should be kept quiet. I think Moore can improve our crappy rotation, but Greg Peterson strikes me as the defnititon of league average player. I don't see him in the NFL much longer.

                              We've still got Sean Mahan and his decent sized contract at center....and nobody else. So him and Zuttah are pretty much guaranteed spots So Fulton is going to have to beat out Lee and Alibi, who I think is also solid. It's an uphill battle for him, I'm predicting PS.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dbtb135 View Post
                                How do you see him getting reps at WSLB when he's in a competition with Crowell? Especially knowing they're going to give Flip a ton to see where he's at and get him more comfortable. You don't win camp competitons by not playing the position. Right now, he's in a fight with Crowell, who to my knowledge has never made a Pro Bowl.

                                Tuck had great quickness, technique, and production coming out of college. He added a ton of muscle and now he's hard to stop at either position. I don't see what in there Moore brings thats comparable at all. Tuck was a stud rusher at ND. Tuck was way more athletic. Until Moore bulks up his MM, or becomes a pass rusherat ANY position, much less multiple positions, the Tuck dreams should be kept quiet. I think Moore can improve our crappy rotation, but Greg Peterson strikes me as the defnititon of league average player. I don't see him in the NFL much longer.

                                We've still got Sean Mahan and his decent sized contract at center....and nobody else. So him and Zuttah are pretty much guaranteed spots So Fulton is going to have to beat out Lee and Alibi, who I think is also solid. It's an uphill battle for him, I'm predicting PS.
                                We can cut Mahan at any time without any bonuses to worry about.

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