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Bucs looking to trade up for Suh?

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  • #31
    etk I looked at your profile like 4 days ago and saw that you hadn't been on for like 3 months. I'm glad you're back!

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    • #32
      I don't know why you would bring up Suh's junior game vs Clemson as an example of his poor run defense; the 2009 Suh is an entirely different beast. But lets not use words, lets use film.







      Now, I am not saying you havent been watching film and I had no intention of "taking the high road" but watch these videos and count how many times he gets driven off the ball like you say. I am serious, try it out. You too, George Lippard. Keep in mind, I watch for Highlights and Lowlights on all my videos, so if there are times of him getting destroyed, they will be in the videos.

      As for his lower body strength being a huge weakness: why then is his bullrush so epic? And he does it while rushing too high, which is even more of a sign of strong legs. Imagine if he bullrushed with better form.

      I would be shocked if Mayock did not move Suh up to #1 very soon. Mayock's rankings are unimportant untill around March when he actually gets heavily into watching film.
      save Freeman

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      • #33
        I don't know how I feel about this. If the Bucs are going to get Suh, McCoy, or Berry, all of which are around the same talent level in my opinion, they might as well waste some picks doing it.

        But I guess the Bucs' aren't too down with Eric Berry with Tanard Jackson already at FS?

        "He's the leader of the next great class of NFL players." - John Elway on Matt Ryan

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        • #34
          (I HOPE) They would either convert EB to corner or let him roam and do his versatility thing. Pigeonholing him to FS wouldn't be fully utilizing his talents. Plus, in the 2-deep FS/SS are interchangeable anymore.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by d34ng3l021 View Post
            I don't know how I feel about this. If the Bucs are going to get Suh, McCoy, or Berry, all of which are around the same talent level in my opinion, they might as well waste some picks doing it.

            But I guess the Bucs' aren't too down with Eric Berry with Tanard Jackson already at FS?
            Getting a stud at DT would improve the team's defense more than than one at safety.

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            • #36
              ETK: "Merlin...I figured you knew me well enough to give me the credit instead of resorting to the tried and true "wrong film" argument. All of the knowledgeable guys on this site (and Mike Mayock) are saying similar things. The masses buy the Suh hype because of his college dominance. I'm completely on that bandwagon as I think he's one of the most dominant CFB players of all time. With that being said, you have to evaluate the player critically instead of just saying "he made plays so that's that".

              Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy your post's and threads a great deal, "thought out/informitive/knowledgeable" are words that spring to mind.

              In regard to the, "wrong film" quip, I was honestly giving you the benifit of the doubt (respectfully)

              My opinions of Suh are my own, they just happen to be shared by others, as do your's, which is why I made a point of saying, "they may have different physical attributes which account for their different playing styles", rather than saying "he made plays so that's that", as you suggested, stats are for stataticians, not football players.

              ETK: "Suh gets double-teamed a ton, and he often breaks out of those double teams with elite upper body strength to club linemen. The problem I have with him is in head-to-head run blocking he often gets driven back. That's a huge concern for a potential #1 overall pick. Many of his HIGHLIGHTS show him getting driven back only to recover by shedding the block to the side. That's nice and all, but it won't fly in the NFL"

              Why does he need to be "double-teamed a ton"!?! I understand your point regarding his "elite upper body strength" though I can't see anything that makes me believe he hasn't the lower body strength for the next level? as for his head-to-head run blocking, I see a man taking control of his blocker, and adjusting to the ball, I don't see him being "driven back"!?!

              ETK: "Suh has a great all-around game, but he's lacking 1 key attribute. McCoy is a better overall athlete and has less weaknesses. I struggle to find any weakness with McCoy, in fact. Suh is only the superior run defender if you believe that his method of shedding blockers will work for him in the NFL...I don't"

              McCoy has his weaknesses like everyone else IMO.


              In comparison to Suh, Me Likey Rookies pretty much nailed it, "McCoy has two things on Suh: 1. jump off the snap and 2. better leverage (which is correctable for Suh)

              Suh is better at everything else including: 1. strength (I have NO idea how you could dispute this)...2. instincts (he has a phenomenal sense of what play is being run compared to McCoy's constant overruns)...3. motor (NO ONE has a motor as good as Suh's in college)...4. consistency (not only consistency but dominating/taking over a game consistency).

              Berry:

              ETK: "Thanks for proving my point that we shouldn't draft Berry to play S. We need our SS to be like an extra linebacker at times. As hard as he tries, Berry just doesn't have the size to come up in the box like Flip often did"

              No arguement from me at all.

              ETK: "Why would we convert him to CB? Why not? Lots of schools were recruiting him as a CB out of HS. He has elite size, speed, explosiveness, agility, quickness, playmaking ability, run support etc. for the position. Sounds like a damn good corner to me"

              I could be mistaken, but I think he played one game as a CB for Tenn, after that, he started at FS. I'm not doubting his athletic ability, but he has poor technique in regards to his backpedal etc, I'm not saying he couldn't be coached up, but it's not as easy as switching from CB to S, Ronnie Lott/Rolle off the top of my head, he's seeing the field from a completly different perspective, and as I pointed out earlier he also played QB at high school, though I doubt we'll see him under center any time soon ;o)

              ETK: "Haden is hugely overrated. I wouldn't take him in the top 15, let alone the top 5. He has extremely tight hips and it's not like he has exceptional size to make up for it. His shortcomings were masked by the elite surrounding talent on the UF defense, and he'll get burnt a lot in the NFL"

              TIGHT HIPS.....!?!

              His hips are a strong point, if he lacks anything it's height, other than that he's an outstanding prospect.
              Last edited by Merlin; 02-23-2010, 03:49 AM.

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              • #37
                This thread is full of awesomeness. Seriously, love reading all of your posts, helping make me the smartest man in the room regarding the top 2 defensive tackle prospects in the upcoming draft.

                Thanks.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Caddy View Post
                  etk I looked at your profile like 4 days ago and saw that you hadn't been on for like 3 months. I'm glad you're back!
                  I've been lurking the whole time, but I never had any real reason to post. This forum got boring recently and it's no surprise that you, T24L, Chucky, etc. have been inactive. Now that we're getting into the meat of draft season I see the opportunity to have some quality discussion in this team forum.

                  Originally posted by Me Likey Rookies View Post
                  I don't know why you would bring up Suh's junior game vs Clemson as an example of his poor run defense; the 2009 Suh is an entirely different beast. But lets not use words, lets use film.

                  Now, I am not saying you havent been watching film and I had no intention of "taking the high road" but watch these videos and count how many times he gets driven off the ball like you say. I am serious, try it out. You too, George Lippard. Keep in mind, I watch for Highlights and Lowlights on all my videos, so if there are times of him getting destroyed, they will be in the videos.

                  As for his lower body strength being a huge weakness: why then is his bullrush so epic? And he does it while rushing too high, which is even more of a sign of strong legs. Imagine if he bullrushed with better form.

                  I would be shocked if Mayock did not move Suh up to #1 very soon. Mayock's rankings are unimportant untill around March when he actually gets heavily into watching film.
                  "The 2009 Suh is an entirely different beast" - I agree that he improved a lot in both physically and technically. That's why I moved him up from being a late 1st rounder to a top 10-15 pick. Although he has improved his lower body strength, 1st-step quickness and leverage, he still has and always will have slim legs.

                  He only gets driven back a few times, and it's never more than a yard or so. That's a great improvement, but even in watching him bullrush effectively he still seems to lack the power that you want in a disruptive interior linemen. He shows good leverage a lot of the time and his upper body strength is phenomenal, but he doesn't explode through his hips like McCoy.

                  Bullrushing high shows strong chest and arms. That's my point. He can get away with that at the college level, but in the NFL he will have to sink his hips and really drive his legs.

                  Suh is a great player. I'm not predicting him to bust (although I did in the past before his improvement). The issue at stake here is "who do we draft". I don't think we should draft Suh because it would be a disaster to have a DT that doesn't anchor effectively when we play teams like Carolina and Atlanta twice a year.

                  Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                  Why does he need to be "double-teamed a ton"!?! I understand your point regarding his "elite upper body strength" though I can't see anything that makes me believe he hasn't the lower body strength for the next level? as for his head-to-head run blocking, I see a man taking control of his blocker, and adjusting to the ball, I don't see him being "driven back"!?!


                  McCoy has his weaknesses like everyone else IMO.


                  Berry:

                  I could be mistaken, but I think he played one game as a CB for Tenn, after that, he started at FS. I'm not doubting his athletic ability, but he has poor technique in regards to his backpedal etc, I'm not saying he couldn't be coached up, but it's not as easy as switching from CB to S, Ronnie Lott/Rolle off the top of my head, he's seeing the field from a completly different perspective, and as I pointed out earlier he also played QB at high school, though I doubt we'll see him under center any time soon ;o)

                  Haden:

                  TIGHT HIPS.....!?!

                  His hips are a strong point, if he lacks anything it's height, other than that he's an outstanding prospect.
                  In regards to Suh....not much to say other than the explosive power that's lacking when I watch him on film. I wish I could say he had it, because that would make him a truly legendary prospect, but I don't see it.

                  McCoy is not a perfect prospect, but he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses imo. There's nothing about his game that strikes me as bad or even below-average.

                  Sounds to me like you are in favor of drafting Berry for CB, but you're letting conservatism get in the way. Obviously it's a projection when a player switches position, but Berry has all of the tools to transition effectively from S to CB. CB is a completely different mentality from S, but it's not an earth-shattering switch. We have coaches that could help him make a fast and smooth transition....see, fast and smooth (and size), that's what you want from a top 5 CB.

                  Haden definitely has tight hips. He doesn't change directions smoothly and often slips/trips when making cuts. He struggles in off-man coverage - Brandon LaFell literally ran right by him despite an 8 yard cushion. He'll be a liability when left on an island. If he was a Sr. he would've been exposed at the Senior Bowl.

                  sig by BoneKrusher

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                  • #39
                    We're not going to convince each other to change our opinions, rather than play, "tit for tat", I'm gonna hope we can agree to disagree, otherwise we're gonna keep reapeating ourselves, as for "Sounds to me like you are in favor of drafting Berry for CB"....I'm not in favor of drafting him at all!!!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                      We're not going to convince each other to change our opinions, rather than play, "tit for tat", I'm gonna hope we can agree to disagree, otherwise we're gonna keep reapeating ourselves, as for "Sounds to me like you are in favor of drafting Berry for CB"....I'm not in favor of drafting him at all!!!
                      You said it yourself that he has all the tools to play CB....shrug. It's our biggest need. Oh well.

                      sig by BoneKrusher

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by etk View Post




                        I still would prefer Eric Berry over Suh, but one one condition: we play Berry at CB. We need an impact CB much more than an upgrade over Piscitelli,
                        I'm with you Etk that we need a CB badly... But we need an upgrade over Piscitelli just as badly, he might be top 5 worst SS in the NFL.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bigbuc View Post
                          I'm with you Etk that we need a CB badly... But we need an upgrade over Piscitelli just as badly, he might be top 5 worst SS in the NFL.
                          I agree, but who do we have at CB? We can sign a competent SS in FA. Plus Piscitelli still has good measurables, so I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

                          sig by BoneKrusher

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                          • #43
                            We are ******, royally, at cornerback. Assuming Barber retires following this season.

                            Who else is there? Elbert Mack is a slot type at his very best and the rest are scrubs.

                            We need another young corner that can man up against #2s in the very near future.

                            I don't draft for need but the best player in the draft fits a big need and should be available at #3.

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                            • #44
                              etk: "Haden definitely has tight hips. He doesn't change directions smoothly and often slips/trips when making cuts. He struggles in off-man coverage - Brandon LaFell literally ran right by him despite an 8 yard cushion. He'll be a liability when left on an island."

                              etk, there you go using 2008 film again. I assume you are referring to this game:


                              here is his 2009 video:


                              btw, I do not want Haden on the Bucs. For me it is Suh/McCoy/Berry or bust but I do not think Haden is as bad as you think he is.
                              save Freeman

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                              • #45
                                on Suh:

                                you went from "He doesn't have a powerful trunk and he doesn't get under the pads of opposing offensive linemen and drive them back. As a matter of fact, I've seen him get driven back on numerous occasions."

                                to

                                "He only gets driven back a few times, and it's never more than a yard or so."

                                Seems like a big difference, perhaps you were a bit off on your 2009 assesement of Suh?

                                I think the main thing we disagree on is the whole anchoring against the run. I believe Suh is superior (and that seems to be the general thought everywhere), while you believe McCoy is superior. My McCoy 2009 videos do show him solidly anchoring against the run but Suh just made so many more plays vs the run, and it wasnt 5 yards down the field after getting driven back and disengaging as you said. (That would be Barrett Ruud).
                                save Freeman

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