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  • #46
    Originally posted by Me Likey Rookies View Post
    etk: "Haden definitely has tight hips. He doesn't change directions smoothly and often slips/trips when making cuts. He struggles in off-man coverage - Brandon LaFell literally ran right by him despite an 8 yard cushion. He'll be a liability when left on an island."

    etk, there you go using 2008 film again. I assume you are referring to this game:

    btw, I do not want Haden on the Bucs. For me it is Suh/McCoy/Berry or bust but I do not think Haden is as bad as you think he is.
    You keep trying to score extra views from me ;)

    I see the same things in that video that I do in all the others. Watch the first interception he makes: he doesn't explode out of his break, and when he goes to change direction and run upfield he almost falls flat on his face. Top 10 corners need to have more length and fluid athletic ability. Haden is a late 1st guy.

    BTW you don't think Dez Bryant is an option?

    Originally posted by Me Likey Rookies View Post
    on Suh:

    you went from "He doesn't have a powerful trunk and he doesn't get under the pads of opposing offensive linemen and drive them back. As a matter of fact, I've seen him get driven back on numerous occasions."

    to

    "He only gets driven back a few times, and it's never more than a yard or so."

    Seems like a big difference, perhaps you were a bit off on your 2009 assesement of Suh?

    I think the main thing we disagree on is the whole anchoring against the run. I believe Suh is superior (and that seems to be the general thought everywhere), while you believe McCoy is superior. My McCoy 2009 videos do show him solidly anchoring against the run but Suh just made so many more plays vs the run, and it wasnt 5 yards down the field after getting driven back and disengaging as you said. (That would be Barrett Ruud).
    I've seen him get driven back on numerous occasions. This is a true statement. I saw it a lot on Jr. film, and a little bit on Sr. film.

    He only got driven back a few times. This is again a true statement, based on the 2 clips I watched prior to making that post.

    The 2 are not mutually exclusive. I wasn't off on my Suh assessment. I've seen plenty of him this year prior to this discussion. I watched a couple of clips again because you posted them and just to be sure.

    Suh does make many more plays against the run, but I don't see him drive back the G/C and force the RB to cutback or take a loss very often. He's not gonna be pulling linemen to the side in the NFL like he did in college. He's gonna have to transition from being a catalyst and tackle-maker to being a support player. McCoy has Tommie Harris/Kevin Williams ability in that he does his job most of the game AND makes a few key plays off individual effort.

    But I have to reinforce that I'm not disputing the plays that are being made by either player, I'm arguing about the athletic ability of each player. Suh did a solid job of driving back linemen his Sr. year (albeit nothing special for "the greatest DT prospect in 10-15 years"), but I don't see the explosive power from his lower body that's necessary to anchor as an interior lineman.

    Again, I'm projecting him to the next level. I may be wrong in the end, or I may end up right. I know exactly what kind of player Suh is, but the question is how well that player will translate to the pros.

    sig by BoneKrusher

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    • #47
      "I've seen him get driven back on numerous occasions. This is a true statement. I saw it a lot on Jr. film, and a little bit on Sr. film."

      So (almost) your whole arguement is based on junior film. You can almost throw that film out because of his improvement from junior to senior year.

      "Suh does make many more plays against the run, but I don't see him drive back the G/C and force the RB to cutback or take a loss very often."

      I see him stoning the G/C and making the RB take a loss or get no yardage many, many, many times in those videos. Waaaaaaaaaay more than you see McCoy do it. I think we need to agree to disgree, but let me just say that I think you are having a hard time changing your mind becaue before the season you engraved in your mind that McCoy is greatest thing ever. I did too, but the 2009 season changed that for me.

      I love Dez Bryant but not at 3 (and not over Berry and not with the 2nd round options of DWilliams, Benn, Tate, DThomas, Gilyard).
      save Freeman

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      • #48
        I just hope Suh busts, horribly. The **** over at TBBBB deserve as much.

        etk > Scott Wright. And it isn't close...sort of like McCoy and Suh.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by etk View Post
          You said it yourself that he has all the tools to play CB....shrug. It's our biggest need. Oh well.
          When did I say that!?!

          Are you eluding to the fact I mentioned his athletic ability, and that he could be "coached up", if thats the case, it would have to be a pretty piss poor GM to draft a "project" at #3!?! Oh well.

          Comment


          • #50
            In regards to a S, I haven't given up on Sabby just yet, but should the FO think differently, we could pick one up at any time, the draft is very deep.

            And yes, everyone banging on about the lack of depth and potential scenarios surrounding the CB position, are right to be concerned, I'm still on the Haden bandwagon, but as long as we address the position in the first 2rd's, we should hopefully be set.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by George Lippard View Post
              McCoy is undoubtedly better than Suh. etk is spot on. NFL scouts are beginning to say as much.
              Take it with a pinch of salt, but Mike Mayock now has Earl Thomas over Eric Berry.

              http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09...s&confirm=true

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              • #52
                http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-hq-vid.../Haden-s-House

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                • #53
                  Not sure thats the breakfast of champions..lols

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Me Likey Rookies View Post
                    "I've seen him get driven back on numerous occasions. This is a true statement. I saw it a lot on Jr. film, and a little bit on Sr. film."

                    So (almost) your whole arguement is based on junior film. You can almost throw that film out because of his improvement from junior to senior year.

                    "Suh does make many more plays against the run, but I don't see him drive back the G/C and force the RB to cutback or take a loss very often."

                    I see him stoning the G/C and making the RB take a loss or get no yardage many, many, many times in those videos. Waaaaaaaaaay more than you see McCoy do it. I think we need to agree to disgree, but let me just say that I think you are having a hard time changing your mind becaue before the season you engraved in your mind that McCoy is greatest thing ever. I did too, but the 2009 season changed that for me.

                    I love Dez Bryant but not at 3 (and not over Berry and not with the 2nd round options of DWilliams, Benn, Tate, DThomas, Gilyard).
                    You can't disregard play from barely over a year ago. He has improved to the point where it probably won't prevent him from being a starter, but it's still a weakness in the NFL.

                    I have changed my mind. I moved him up from a pre-season late 1st rounder (when people projected him as a top 10 pick) to a top 15 pick (people project him top 3).

                    Williams doesn't offer much for a 2nd rounder. Benn is extremely overrated. Tate, Thomas and Gilyard are legit (so is LaFell). All I'm saying is that Bryant should be in consideration since he's a top 5 talent - this coming from someone who isn't as high on him as most.

                    Originally posted by George Lippard View Post
                    I just hope Suh busts, horribly. The **** over at TBBBB deserve as much.

                    etk > Scott Wright. And it isn't close...sort of like McCoy and Suh.
                    I'd like to see Suh bust because the reaction would be "How did this happen?" which would prove how few people can really evaluate film critically.

                    I have a lot of respect for Scott because he runs a good (and free) site and puts in a lot of hard work. He writes great scouting reports as well, although I disagree with a lot of his evaluations and where he ranks prospects. i.e. he thinks AJ Green is the top prospect for next year when Julio Jones is a rare physical talent.

                    There just aren't enough people who "get it" when it comes to evaluating talent.

                    Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                    When did I say that!?!

                    Are you eluding to the fact I mentioned his athletic ability, and that he could be "coached up", if thats the case, it would have to be a pretty piss poor GM to draft a "project" at #3!?! Oh well.
                    You said "I'm not doubting his athletic ability", which to me means that you think he has all the natural tools to be a great CB. What top 5 picks aren't considered "projects"? All rookies face a difficult adjustment in the NFL. Every QB drafted is a project. When I think of prospects that weren't projects, I think of Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery, Aaron Curry, etc. Guys that were "sure-things" that didn't live up to the hype.

                    Berry has elite athletic ability and is a natural playmaker. What's not to like?

                    sig by BoneKrusher

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      ETK: "There just aren't enough people who "get it" when it comes to evaluating talent"

                      Ain't that the truth, but that's what makes it fun for us casual fans etc.

                      ETK: "You said "I'm not doubting his athletic ability", which to me means that you think he has all the natural tools to be a great CB. What top 5 picks aren't considered "projects"? All rookies face a difficult adjustment in the NFL. Every QB drafted is a project. When I think of prospects that weren't projects, I think of Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery, Aaron Curry, etc. Guys that were "sure-things" that didn't live up to the hype.

                      Berry has elite athletic ability and is a natural playmaker. What's not to like?"

                      Sorry, when I said "project" I made the assumption you wouldn't equate to the obvious!?!

                      I'm sure Jerry Rice had, "all the natural tools" to be a great CB, but guess what...

                      If Berry had the pure speed and ability to be a shut-down corner, he'd already be playing corner. Yes, there's an upside to having a guy who can be moved all around the field. But if you have a guy who can rub out a top receiving threat on the opposition, that's what you use him for. Nobody wanted to use Rod Woodson or Aeneas Williams at safety until they couldn't stay with receivers one on one anymore. I'm sure Nnamdi Asomugha could play safety, and be moved all around the field, and create matchup problems. But that would be silly, because if you've got an elite cover corner, he's going to play corner.

                      IMHO, the fact he didn't play corner in college raises some questions about whether he can/should be used that way in the pros.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                        ETK: "There just aren't enough people who "get it" when it comes to evaluating talent"

                        Ain't that the truth, but that's what makes it fun for us casual fans etc.

                        ETK: "You said "I'm not doubting his athletic ability", which to me means that you think he has all the natural tools to be a great CB. What top 5 picks aren't considered "projects"? All rookies face a difficult adjustment in the NFL. Every QB drafted is a project. When I think of prospects that weren't projects, I think of Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery, Aaron Curry, etc. Guys that were "sure-things" that didn't live up to the hype.

                        Berry has elite athletic ability and is a natural playmaker. What's not to like?"

                        Sorry, when I said "project" I made the assumption you wouldn't equate to the obvious!?!

                        I'm sure Jerry Rice had, "all the natural tools" to be a great CB, but guess what...

                        If Berry had the pure speed and ability to be a shut-down corner, he'd already be playing corner. Yes, there's an upside to having a guy who can be moved all around the field. But if you have a guy who can rub out a top receiving threat on the opposition, that's what you use him for. Nobody wanted to use Rod Woodson or Aeneas Williams at safety until they couldn't stay with receivers one on one anymore. I'm sure Nnamdi Asomugha could play safety, and be moved all around the field, and create matchup problems. But that would be silly, because if you've got an elite cover corner, he's going to play corner.

                        IMHO, the fact he didn't play corner in college raises some questions about whether he can/should be used that way in the pros.
                        Guess who played free safety in college?

                        Nnamdi Asomugha.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Caddy View Post
                          Guess who played free safety in college?

                          Nnamdi Asomugha.
                          Yeah, and he was drafted 31st overall, and played in only 8 games in his first two years!?!

                          Now if your prepared to use our #3 overall pic, make him switch his position in the hope he'll work out as a CB eventually, (because Asomugha did) great.

                          If we do draft him, I hope to God it's as a S, I'm not sure what it would mean for T-Jack, but hey!?!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                            Sorry, when I said "project" I made the assumption you wouldn't equate to the obvious!?!

                            I'm sure Jerry Rice had, "all the natural tools" to be a great CB, but guess what...

                            If Berry had the pure speed and ability to be a shut-down corner, he'd already be playing corner. Yes, there's an upside to having a guy who can be moved all around the field. But if you have a guy who can rub out a top receiving threat on the opposition, that's what you use him for. Nobody wanted to use Rod Woodson or Aeneas Williams at safety until they couldn't stay with receivers one on one anymore. I'm sure Nnamdi Asomugha could play safety, and be moved all around the field, and create matchup problems. But that would be silly, because if you've got an elite cover corner, he's going to play corner.

                            IMHO, the fact he didn't play corner in college raises some questions about whether he can/should be used that way in the pros.
                            You're WAY overanalyzing things. Berry played safety in college because he's a great run defender and it allowed him to roam and make more plays. Watch his highlights and count how many times he knifes up the field to cut off the RB and make a key tackle.

                            The value of a shutdown corner in the NFL isn't the same as in the SEC. There aren't many dominant passing attacks in the SEC and there's a greater focus on running the ball. Berry was much more valuable as a safety because he could use his range to make plays on the ball and support the run.

                            Shutdown corners have to have a rare, elite set of athletic skills. You have to have size, speed, agility and fluidity. Berry brings all of those things to the table. The only way he doesn't become a Pro Bowl CB is if he has a learning disability or lack of motivation.

                            sig by BoneKrusher

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                              Yeah, and he was drafted 31st overall, and played in only 8 games in his first two years!?!

                              Now if your prepared to use our #3 overall pic, make him switch his position in the hope he'll work out as a CB eventually, (because Asomugha did) great.

                              If we do draft him, I hope to God it's as a S, I'm not sure what it would mean for T-Jack, but hey!?!
                              If I thought he'd turn into Nnamdi after two seasons hell yes I'd draft him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Just a little sidenote....with all the Nnamdi trade talk.

                                Would you trade the third pick for Nnamdi (if and if not McCoy/Suh are taken)?

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