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  • No doubt; however, as it stands I think more patience should be displayed on the part of those who would hang Michael Vick in recompense for only what he is charged with. Right now the odds are he is guilty, but some of these responses are ridiculous.

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    • Originally posted by Jay View Post
      That's not "getting off."

      "Getting off" means he goes to trial and does what no one ever does: beats a federal rap. And again, even if he does that, there will be the local authorities to deal with.

      I believe everything that 18 page Federal Indictment to be true the same way I believe everything the cops in Georgia have determined in the Chris Benoit case: that he killed his wife and his kid and then killed himself. Neither have had a judge or jury say otherwise, but it's a slam dunk.

      Michael Vick is, at the very least, guilty of associating with the wrong people. This is something the NFL drills into their head at their Rookie Symposium, and very clearly many of these guys don't get it.

      But at the same time, this isn't simply a case of a guy being guilty by association, though. Vick has claimed he was "never" there, when he has been linked to being there on many, many, many occasions. He can not plead ignorance. It can not and will not happen or work. He was every bit a part in all of this. The evidence is indisputable, the same way it is indisputable in the case of Chris Benoit.

      But again, I am going to just let it play out. We're on what, day four after the indictment? A week from today, ****s gonna hit the fan and when this thing actually goes to trial, it's going to be slam dunk.

      And again, you are misunderstanding the meaning behind "innocent until proven guilty." That simply means that the government/cops can not dictate a punishment until a decision is made by a judge and jury, and that they are to assume he is innocent until it is proven otherwise.

      It if you want to carry that over into your personal opinion, that is certainly your right. But it is evidence is very clearly not in the favor of your opinion...
      You, sir, are the master of the straw man argument(The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

      1. Person A has position X.
      2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
      3. Person B attacks position Y.
      4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed. )


      You do realize that witnesses that are testifying to get a reduced sentence aren't the most trustworthy. That is what I have been saying the entire time. It is impossible to say he is guilty without knowing the situations of the witnesses. Does it look like he is guilty? Of course it does, but we know nothing about the witnesses.

      I would like to see a cite that says the federal government wins 95%+ of their cases. He has much more than a one in a million chance, even if that was the average odds of someone beating a federal rap, Vick is not a normal person. He has much, much more money than most people, and money gives him a much better chance.

      I don't think the NFL should do anything to him. However, I would have absolutely no problem with the Falcons suspending him. Regardless if he is guilty or not, this will negatively affect the teams performance, which is more than enough reason for the TEAM to do something. I don't think it is enough for the NFL to do something, but the team needs to do whatever it can to win, which would involve keeping the Vick circus away.
      I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
      Hunter S. Thompson

      Comment


      • Goodell can suspend him if he likes. The NFL is a business, and if someone was indicted by the feds they could certainly lose their job for it. The only thing is, if he is acquitted, all of a sudden, Falcons fans, bitter about losing a season for no reason, will be very angry with Goodell. It would just not be a great situation. If it's settled out of court in time for Goodell to act, I think he'll suspend him. If it goes to court, he might wait it out. This is very different from PacMan. PacMan has repeatedly done stupid things that are against the law. This is Vick's first. The water bottle is a non-issue. flipping off Saints fans(yes they were saints fans) for calling him racial slurs is not against the law.


        Originally posted by Scott Wright
        Terrellezzzzzzzz Pryorzzzzzzzz!
        Originally posted by njx9
        do i tell you when to flip the burger?

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        • Originally posted by Jay View Post
          So "getting off" is going to make him innocent? Really. Wow.

          I guess Chris Benoit is innocent then. I mean, a judge and a jury didn't tell me that he killed his wife and kid, all we really have is circumstantial evidence being fed to us by cops...

          What I meant was Vick's laywers could easily take down these witnesses, espically if they are all Davon Boddies.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by bearfan View Post
            I believe he should be suspended for a few games right now, w/o being proven guilty. Yes, Moses, I know you think its rediculous, but right now he put himself in a bad spot, based on some bad choices. Now the whole world is looking at him as they never have before, and I believe that that is hurting the NFLs rep. That and the fact that he lied. Goodell should not just let him off even if he is proven innocent


            I could see were you would argue that he is hurting the NFL's rep, but as Moses and myself have pointed out several times, what happens if he's innocent? Right now, Vick's rep is hurt alot more than the NFL's. If Vick was suspended then found innocent, the NFL would take an absolute beating.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by someone447 View Post
              You, sir, are the master of the straw man argument(The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

              1. Person A has position X.
              2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
              3. Person B attacks position Y.
              4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed. )


              You do realize that witnesses that are testifying to get a reduced sentence aren't the most trustworthy. That is what I have been saying the entire time. It is impossible to say he is guilty without knowing the situations of the witnesses. Does it look like he is guilty? Of course it does, but we know nothing about the witnesses.

              I would like to see a cite that says the federal government wins 95%+ of their cases. He has much more than a one in a million chance, even if that was the average odds of someone beating a federal rap, Vick is not a normal person. He has much, much more money than most people, and money gives him a much better chance.

              I don't think the NFL should do anything to him. However, I would have absolutely no problem with the Falcons suspending him. Regardless if he is guilty or not, this will negatively affect the teams performance, which is more than enough reason for the TEAM to do something. I don't think it is enough for the NFL to do something, but the team needs to do whatever it can to win, which would involve keeping the Vick circus away.
              Why I am even responding you here after you've proven yourself an idiot through other means, I don't know, but it's a slow night and I'm bored, so I'll bite.

              #1, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA at your "Straw man" theory. Kind of ironic since I had issues with Moses putting words into my mouth. But hey, I'm learning real quick that you're not the sharpest tool in the drawer, so this is just par for the course.

              I would absolutely love to see you get specific. You won't, because you can't, but please, humor me with an attempt.

              #2. If the three other people join the four informants in turning on Vick, and it becomes seven people's word against one, Vicks dream team is going to have their hands full trying to destroy the credibility of a lot of people. Nice try, though.

              #3. Give me every single case of the 5% the feds have failed to win, and lets see what went wrong. Having good attorneys doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially when the facts are as concrete as this. Bodies were found, Vick is confirmed to have been a very willing participant, let alone the owner of the land and enterprise, and that's all there is to it.

              So basically, before anyone assumes Vick can win this case because it's been done before, let's assess the facts of this case versus the very small handful of others who have actually gone to trial and flat out won.

              I guarantee it won't look pretty. Money means nothing. If anything, the details of the case work heavily against him, especially when the feds start bring out pictures of mutilated and dead dogs.

              Anyone with half a brain should see the writing on the wall.

              #4. Way to straddle the fence there hotshot. Pick a side and stand on it. What difference does it make if a suspension comes from the league or the team? Same ****, different stench.

              Comment


              • The fact that there is no precedence for a Federal Case such as this, Goddell can set the precedence now. ...and he should. Yes, players in the past have broken state laws and there is a precedence for that, but this does not compare. People forget that being in the NFL is a priviledge, not a right. The NFL is not the US Justice System. It has it's own set of rules. It does not have the same rules and it doesn't have to have the same rules. If Vick is innocent, then he doesn't have to go to jail. That is completely different from what matters to the NFL or any other business that has their own conduct policies. If the NFL has a rule or sets up a rule related to conduct harmful to the league, then they have the right to do so in order to protect their image. Look at NIKE. They aren't releasing Vick's new shoe line. Is America up in arms because NIKE doesn't wish to relate themselves to Vick at this time? Hell no!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                  The fact that there is no precedence for a Federal Case such as this, Goddell can set the precedence now. ...and he should. Yes, players in the past have broken state laws and there is a precedence for that, but this does not compare. People forget that being in the NFL is a priviledge, not a right. The NFL is not the US Justice System. It has it's own set of rules. It does not have the same rules and it doesn't have to have the same rules. If Vick is innocent, then he doesn't have to go to jail. That is completely different from what matters to the NFL or any other business that has their own conduct policies. If the NFL has a rule or sets up a rule related to conduct harmful to the league, then they have the right to do so in order to protect their image. Look at NIKE. They aren't releasing Vick's new shoe line. Is America up in arms because NIKE doesn't wish to relate themselves to Vick at this time? Hell no!

                  Most of America isn't crying for Vick. Even non PETA people still have a big problem with animals being hurt. We would be getting less **** if he was selling cocaine. And Nike still has Vick on board with them, so just because they are waiting it out doesn't mean much. Honestly, them not releasing it now has nothing to do with the charges IMO. I think they aren't releasing it because as I pointed out, people have the problem with the animals. The truth is, if this Vick stuff was released right now, it would flop.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ATLDirtyBirds View Post
                    Most of America isn't crying for Vick. Even non PETA people still have a big problem with animals being hurt. We would be getting less **** if he was selling cocaine. And Nike still has Vick on board with them, so just because they are waiting it out doesn't mean much. Honestly, them not releasing it now has nothing to do with the charges IMO. I think they aren't releasing it because as I pointed out, people have the problem with the animals. The truth is, if this Vick stuff was released right now, it would flop.
                    I'm not saying people are crying for Vick. Dunno where you got that. I'm responding to those saying the NFL would get pounded for suspending Vick. It's just not true. Pounded by ATL fans? Maybe. Pounded by players in Adam Jones' shoes? Maybe. But not to the general public.

                    On Nike....why do you think Vick's stuff would flop? It's because of the charges, bud. You can't say it has nothing to do with the charges... that's wrong.

                    Comment


                    • I don't agree with what the NFL is doing....Tank Johnson had a couple of crimes nowhere near this....one of which he was driving legally...and he gets 8 games....Mike Vick has had several incidents as well, with flipping off the fans and the water bottle and now he kills dogs....and the say"Oh lets wait and see" It really upsets me to see him to this because it hurts the image of not just him, the NFL and the falcons, but his race. Several news reports have said how much of a part dog fighting is of african american culture and it is ashame one man can do so much to ruin image


                      Sig thanks to Tobzilla

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jay View Post
                        Why I am even responding you here after you've proven yourself an idiot through other means, I don't know, but it's a slow night and I'm bored, so I'll bite.

                        #1, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA at your "Straw man" theory. Kind of ironic since I had issues with Moses putting words into my mouth. But hey, I'm learning real quick that you're not the sharpest tool in the drawer, so this is just par for the course.

                        I would absolutely love to see you get specific. You won't, because you can't, but please, humor me with an attempt.

                        #2. If the three other people join the four informants in turning on Vick, and it becomes seven people's word against one, Vicks dream team is going to have their hands full trying to destroy the credibility of a lot of people. Nice try, though.

                        #3. Give me every single case of the 5% the feds have failed to win, and lets see what went wrong. Having good attorneys doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially when the facts are as concrete as this. Bodies were found, Vick is confirmed to have been a very willing participant, let alone the owner of the land and enterprise, and that's all there is to it.

                        So basically, before anyone assumes Vick can win this case because it's been done before, let's assess the facts of this case versus the very small handful of others who have actually gone to trial and flat out won.

                        I guarantee it won't look pretty. Money means nothing. If anything, the details of the case work heavily against him, especially when the feds start bring out pictures of mutilated and dead dogs.

                        Anyone with half a brain should see the writing on the wall.

                        #4. Way to straddle the fence there hotshot. Pick a side and stand on it. What difference does it make if a suspension comes from the league or the team? Same ****, different stench.
                        I see you are still upset about that red dot...

                        1. Notice how EVERYONE who you disagree with says that you are misconstruing what they say. That, my friend, is a straw man. An example, find any thread about Mike Vick that I have ever said I thought he was innocent. Hell, find any place that Moses said he was completely innocent. All we have ever said is he might not be guilty.

                        2. IF IF IF IF IF, there is no guarantee they turn on him. You are stating it like it is a fact they will.

                        3. Vick is not CONFIRMED, he has 4 witnesses, as of right now who are of questionable motives saying he was. Let's wait and see how these witnesses end up before jumping to conclusions. You are the one who is claiming the feds don't lose, therefore, it is your responsibility to show a cite that proves your claim. All I am doing is questioning your information.

                        4. The difference between the NFL suspending him and the Falcons suspending him is substantial. The Falcons suspending him would help the team win games, which is what each teams primary goal is. The NFL suspending him takes that choice out of the teams hands. If the Falcons think they will win more games with Vick suspended, then they should be able to do it. I think the NFL should have a legitimate reason to suspend someone; I think the teams should be able to do it because it makes it more likely for them to win. I would prefer no one suspends him and they let it all play out, because it is POSSIBLE that he is innocent.

                        Moses, I have to correct you; Vick cannot be found innocent, US courts do not find anyone innocent, only not guilty. There is a huge difference. The Duke guys were innocent, OJ was not guilty(rightfully, although I am certain he did it, they did not make a case beyond a reasonable doubt, but that is for another thread.)
                        I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
                        Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                        • Moses vs. Jay is like the epic boxing match of Gotti vs. Ward.

                          Bravo gentlemen.

                          One thing I just want to add in regard to potential witnesses that could incriminate Vick. When ESPN ran that piece a month or two ago where they had that informant talking in a silhouette and with voice masking, they immediately interviewed a federal agent (whom was also in silhouette and voice masked) and that agent said the informant had been used in previous cases as a witness and his validity as a source/witness was legit. The informant clearly outed Vick as being heavily involved. I don't know about the other witnesses, but that guy will be one that Vick's lawyers won't be able to crack.
                          The Brian Sabean sig is no more. I disagreed with you on so many levels. And then you went out and built a dynasty. I am lame.

                          Comment


                          • All this has done to this point has made Roger Goodell look like a fool. Every opponent of his "iron fist" policy stated that the real test would be when a big name gets into trouble, and then how Goodell reacted would be the true litmus test. Guess what, Goodell failed miserably! By hiding behind the "lets see how things turn out" comment, you are saying that a big name, the face of the NFL arguably, gets more credence then other players. Goodell is basically saying that superstars have different rules and therefore makes his reign as commish null and void. He needed to come out strong, saying that a FEDERAL indictment, no matter what the outcome, is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. An indefinite suspension until the facts come out during a trial or what not would have been the right move but Goodell is saying that marketing is more important then being fair and just. If I'm Tank Johnson or Pacman or Chris Henry I'm thrilled about this because Roger just gave them ammo to fight their suspensions.

                            Magical sig by OSUGiants

                            SSAEL....... its a new revolution!


                            Originally posted by Job
                            On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
                            Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

                            So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!

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                            • Originally posted by D-Unit View Post
                              I'm not saying people are crying for Vick. Dunno where you got that. I'm responding to those saying the NFL would get pounded for suspending Vick. It's just not true. Pounded by ATL fans? Maybe. Pounded by players in Adam Jones' shoes? Maybe. But not to the general public.

                              On Nike....why do you think Vick's stuff would flop? It's because of the charges, bud. You can't say it has nothing to do with the charges... that's wrong.

                              The crying part was responding to you saying

                              "Is America up in arms because NIKE doesn't wish to relate themselves to Vick at this time? Hell no!"


                              And you honestly don't think they would take a beating? From being sued, to their behavement policy become a complete joke, and all that goodness?


                              And what I meant by saying it has nothing to do with the crime is, Nike isn't suspending the release because they think he's guilty. They are suspending it because they won't make $$$$.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jags#7 View Post
                                I don't agree with what the NFL is doing....Tank Johnson had a couple of crimes nowhere near this....one of which he was driving legally...and he gets 8 games....Mike Vick has had several incidents as well, with flipping off the fans and the water bottle and now he kills dogs....and the say"Oh lets wait and see" It really upsets me to see him to this because it hurts the image of not just him, the NFL and the falcons, but his race. Several news reports have said how much of a part dog fighting is of african american culture and it is ashame one man can do so much to ruin image
                                Did you even bother reading any of this thread? Half of the stuff you said is inaccurate or just flat-out wrong.

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