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  • Student Athletes (or what role athletics and academics should play)

    I wrote about how academics should play a larger role in college athletics and did the whole student first, athlete second approach. Prof liked it.



  • #2
    Originally posted by Hawk View Post
    I wrote about how academics should play a larger role in college athletics and did the whole student first, athlete second approach. Prof liked it.
    +rep - I agree whole heatedly.




    2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack

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    • #3
      You totally ignored the fact that a huge percentage of college athletes graduate (or are passed) while being given instructional modifications that are not given to non-athlete peers. These non-athletes, if they asked to receive the same said modifications, would be laughed at and be forced to re-take (and pay for) a course. Alas, the student athlete, because they provide a service ( which in itself is a crock, the school uses them to make a buck just the same) are looked upon as model citizens.

      Go look at why colleges were started then look at how they changed in the early 1900's in the US because of athletics.




      2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack

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      • #4
        Originally posted by njx9
        why? the point of college is an education, right? to what end? probably to get a job or compete in the job market, unless you intend to do research (but, in the end, that amounts to basically the same thing). athletics can prepare one for the same thing. sure, a fraction of a fraction of college football players end up in the nfl. and an even smaller fraction of a fraction of law students end up in the top law firm in their respective field. does that mean every other law student's degree was worthless, or that every other athlete's career was worthless? not necessarily. i could apply what i learned to coaching, or countless other sports-related fields.

        *shrug* i've always hated the "academics are so much more important than college athletics" argument, because by any rational criteria, it's simply not true.
        You've got to be kidding me..... :roll:


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        • #5
          So classes started today and I will be starting to ask for A LOT of help from here. Senior-itis from day one..........awesome..........

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          • #6
            I would definitely just copy what CJ and NJX just wrote and that would be my essay. I need both sides of the spectrum. Too bad I have to send it through turnitin.com and if i did that this site would pop up. I have to stop being lazy. Great arguments though, from both parties.

            Sig by: BK

            02:40 *** Chucky quit #nfldraftcountdown
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            Originally posted by fenikz
            we all hate you

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            • #7
              Originally posted by njx9
              brilliant counter argument.
              But I'll expand on it.

              Let us look at this from a stand point of "fairness" - excluding any argument that college athletes need to be paid (I'll argue and win that battle at a later time).
              Why is it that Joe Average, who wishes to earn a degree in, well... say anything at all, must do a said amount of course work. Joe Sport, on the other hand, wishes to earn the same degree (give CJ's argument 1 bazillion bonus points here when he mentions that after college, if Joe Sport does not turn pro, there degree will mean the exact same) has to do less course work. If this degree has nothing to do with a given sport, where is the logic in this?
              How is this fair to Joe Averages all across our country, whom make up 95% of our college enrollment in the first place?

              If colleges, which originated as models and institutions of enlightenment and higher learning (both theological and scientific), were to set a singular standard to academics, as opposed to a dual standard where student athletes are involved, perhaps our society could return to a time when it valued education and academia as opposed to Joe Sport's 40 time.




              2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Xonraider View Post
                So classes started today and I will be starting to ask for A LOT of help from here. Senior-itis from day one..........awesome..........
                Senior-itis killed me bro.

                sig by fenikz
                Originally posted by ImBrotherCain
                You are just a terrible person.
                Originally posted by bigbluedefense
                I have an iPhone.

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                • #9
                  CJ and njx9, I might be misunderstanding what the discussion really is focusing on, but it seems to me that both of you are really essentially in agreement with each other, just looking at things from different perspectives and as a result arguing for mutually exclusive things.

                  If I'm understanding both of you correctly, CJ's point = unfair for athletes and those college students who don't aspire to be professional athletes (or at least understand there is about a .0001% chance of them having the required skills) to both earn a degree in major X while having different academic expectations. njx9's point = colleges preparing athletes for a future career in professional sports is completely acceptable with no disagreement that there is some corruption within college athletics as it works now.

                  I'm curious if both of you would be in support of a college offering a "major" (I'm really not sure that is the right word for it, but alas nothing else really comes to mind) for collegiate athletes aspiring to achieve professional status in their sport, that instead of requiring academic classes (i.e. chemistry, calculus, etc.) consisted of "workshops" that would seem more beneficial to future professional athletes and taught them skills about how to handle their imminent media exposure and wealth?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by vikes_28 View Post
                    Senior-itis killed me bro.
                    I would argue that you had no soul before that.

                    Sig by: BK

                    02:40 *** Chucky quit #nfldraftcountdown
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                    02:40 *** Chucky joined #nfldraftcountdown
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                    Originally posted by fenikz
                    we all hate you

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Wally03 View Post
                      CJ and njx9, I might be misunderstanding what the discussion really is focusing on, but it seems to me that both of you are really essentially in agreement with each other, just looking at things from different perspectives and as a result arguing for mutually exclusive things.

                      If I'm understanding both of you correctly, CJ's point = unfair for athletes and those college students who don't aspire to be professional athletes (or at least understand there is about a .0001% chance of them having the required skills) to both earn a degree in major X while having different academic expectations. njx9's point = colleges preparing athletes for a future career in professional sports is completely acceptable with no disagreement that there is some corruption within college athletics as it works now.

                      I'm curious if both of you would be in support of a college offering a "major" (I'm really not sure that is the right word for it, but alas nothing else really comes to mind) for collegiate athletes aspiring to achieve professional status in their sport, that instead of requiring academic classes (i.e. chemistry, calculus, etc.) consisted of "workshops" that would seem more beneficial to future professional athletes and taught them skills about how to handle their imminent media exposure and wealth?
                      If this is his point, I will end now. As I understood him, I thought he argued that colleges should focus as much on athletics as they do on academics. If there were a curriculum established for athletes that helped them prepare for the real world after college (pro sports being an end option or not) I would at least be willing to examine it with an open mind. Understand my gripe is not with njx or at least half of the students that are considered student athletes. My gripe, one that has been argued by me in front of college administrators before and had them jotting down notes in a reversal of roles; as well as having athletes bolting from the room angry because they were exposed for who they were, is with those athletes who go about their daily lives feeling that because they have an athletic skill as opposed to an academic one, (don't open this can of worms - please) college should somehow be different or easier for them. As it is, a graduate who is an athlete stands a better chance at finding employment due to their status as an athlete more than they do based on academic performance; this due to a bias in society where we value athletic skill over academic performance.

                      I have no problem with Joe Sport going to college with the precept that he will be attempting to become a pro athlete, but at the end of four years - it seems unfair that he gets the same academic degree while doing a substantial amount less of academic work. Sports is extracurricular in an institution design to enhance academia. I'm not saying that sports is easy or that I am not a fan (my presence here demonstrates I am). I am saying college is for academics first and athletics second. When we blur those two, equity goes out the window.




                      2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CJSchneider View Post
                        If this is his point, I will end now. As I understood him, I thought he argued that colleges should focus as much on athletics as they do on academics. If there were a curriculum established for athletes that helped them prepare for the real world after college (pro sports being an end option or not) I would at least be willing to examine it with an open mind. Understand my gripe is not with njx or at least half of the students that are considered student athletes. My gripe, one that has been argued by me in front of college administrators before and had them jotting down notes in a reversal of roles; as well as having athletes bolting from the room angry because they were exposed for who they were, is with those athletes who go about their daily lives feeling that because they have an athletic skill as opposed to an academic one, (don't open this can of worms - please) college should somehow be different or easier for them. As it is, a graduate who is an athlete stands a better chance at finding employment due to their status as an athlete more than they do based on academic performance; this due to a bias in society where we value athletic skill over academic performance.

                        I have no problem with Joe Sport going to college with the precept that he will be attempting to become a pro athlete, but at the end of four years - it seems unfair that he gets the same academic degree while doing a substantial amount less of academic work. Sports is extracurricular in an institution design to enhance academia. I'm not saying that sports is easy or that I am not a fan (my presence here demonstrates I am). I am saying college is for academics first and athletics second. When we blur those two, equity goes out the window.
                        Just to be clear, I wasn't taking issue with the discussion taking place. I merely was attempting to clarify the points being made just for my own understanding.

                        This issue always strikes me with interest as during my time as an undergrad I worked with some of the members of different sports teams as a math tutor and was surprised at how their attitudes varied. RPI's only division I sport is men's hockey and I spent a majority of my time working with those individuals. Luckily, even though RPI has a decent reputation in hockey, a vast majority of the hockey players I worked with did place their focus on academics. I suspect a lot of that has to do with the college itself given it markets itself as a rigorous academic institution as opposed to a breeding ground of future professionals like some colleges it seems are starting to be perceived as so I can't really pretend I have a lot first hand experience dealing with D-I athletics in the manner you are really discussing. However, there always were those one or two guys who thought they were something special even though the hockey team sucked during my 4 years there.

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                        • #13
                          That's cool. Also, for the record, two or more people introducing various sides of an issue, while being supported by data of various kinds and respecting the other individuals position is not an argument, that is a debate and I enjoy those.




                          2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by njx9
                            why? the point of college is an education, right? to what end? probably to get a job or compete in the job market, unless you intend to do research (but, in the end, that amounts to basically the same thing). athletics can prepare one for the same thing. sure, a fraction of a fraction of college football players end up in the nfl. and an even smaller fraction of a fraction of law students end up in the top law firm in their respective field. does that mean every other law student's degree was worthless, or that every other athlete's career was worthless? not necessarily. i could apply what i learned to coaching, or countless other sports-related fields.

                            *shrug* i've always hated the "academics are so much more important than college athletics" argument, because by any rational criteria, it's simply not true.
                            Originally posted by njx9
                            i absolutely agree with everything here. my point is simply that an 'education' in athletics, is at least as economically viable (and thus, just as useful for the college to provide) as an academic degree. i don't agree at all with the idea that colleges should do anything to provide an athlete with an academic degree that they wouldn't do (or, perhaps more importantly) don't do for any other student.

                            regardless, cheers. i enjoy a good discussion.

                            I disagree with the first bolded statement. Do you know how hard it is to get into coaching(at least at a high enough level to make a living) and any other sports related field? A career in sports is one of the most sought after jobs in the country. It's not an easy field to get into. Not everyone can pull a Tim Hasselbeck and jump to ESPN. The second bolded part happens all the time though. The degrees that a college basketball or football player might graduate with is not the same as a degree that a non student athlete would receive. Yeah on paper it is, but in the classroom, there is preferential treatment. And its naive to think otherwise. That's why it isn't fair to all the students.

                            I know for a fact, at least here at UT, that football players are instructed by an academic advisor within the football program to take lower level classes during the year and take their classes for their major during the summer. My first year here, I had junior and senior football players in each of my freshman level classes. And everyone knows how summer classes in college are.

                            The biggest benefit of college athletics(for those that don't go professional) is networking.

                            And I neg repped you because I don't like you and I know how sensitive you are about your "e reputation."

                            Originally posted by njx
                            what, is your opinion so worthless that you'd rather hide behind neg rep than have an honest discussion? that's awesome.
                            thanks for this reputation comment too


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                            • #15
                              It's like talking to a ******* wall


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