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-   -   Why Drafting Gerald McCoy Would be a Mistake for the Bucs (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40646)

brasho 04-20-2010 08:18 PM

Why Drafting Gerald McCoy Would be a Mistake for the Bucs
 
McCoy is the most hyped and overrated DT to come out since Glenn Dorsey. Both were disruptive but only marginally productive in college (at least Dorsey showed a good motor and made some tackles his final season) and both severely failed to impress with their athleticism in their workouts. Dorsey is a huge bust and McCoy will likely follow suit.

Here's the thing, fellas. Collegiate DTs play against collegiate OGs who go onto become fry cooks and lawyers or somewhere in between. OGs are usually the least physically talented player on a football team. In the NFL, they look to the OTs for their OGs. Good RTs in college become OGs, good LTs become RTs and great LTs stay at LT... Collegiate OGs are not highly thought of and collegiate DTs will never have to see them again in the NFL... they have to face the far more athletic former OTs... so they have to be more athletic. Sure, Glenn Dorsey dominated SEC OGs...and McCoy dominated Big 12 OGs (at times).... but neither of them have the elite physical ability to be outstanding in the NFL.

McCoy doesn't even have the work ethic. People point to Warren Sapp's 17 reps of 225 to say that McCOy's 21 aren't a big deal... but they're wrong. Poor weigh room numbers suggests bad work ethic and comparing McCoy to Sapp just proves my point. Sapp was known for having a poor work ethic and constantly came into seasons far too fat because of it. What got Sapp by was his outstanding athleticism (4.7 in the 40 type athleticism) which McCoy DOES NOT HAVE! He's a pretty good athlete, but he's no Warren Sapp and even if he did turn around his work ethic to match many of the other DTs in the draft, it still might not be enough to ever be a good DT. That's the thing about Suh, I'm not a Suh-lover, but at the very least you know this guy will work his tail off to be the best he can be.

Then you look at production, which frankly isn't there. Interestingly, McCoy's 34 tackles are exactly half the amount that Lamarr Houston had this past season, his 15.5 TFL are 7 less than Houston, and he had 2 less sacks than Houston. And then Houston went to the combine and had 9 more reps of 225 and ran a 4.85 compared to McCoy's ordinary 5.05. But the outproducing doesn't stop there, Houston was a monster in the Natl Champ Game, notching 10 tackles, 2 TFL and 1 sack, he seemed to have just missed numerous other TFL and sacks against Alabama and their vaunted OL while McCoy went up against a QBless Stanford team and played just OK with 1 sack of a terrible QB and only 3 tackles. Too many times I've watched McCoy only to see him get washed down the line or stood up at his spot... Lamarr Houston was easy to find when watching Texas, he was the guy always in the backfield. Whether he made the play or not, he often did, he was extremely disruptive-and athletic enough to play DE for Texas his first two seasons.

I have often been right in the past about these things. I was very adamant that Gaines Adams would flop in the NFL and was extremely upset when we wasted our pick on him (overraged moron that took 6 seasons after high school to figure out how to dominate in college doesn't make for a good start to an NFL career). And most times my Buc picks have panned out FAR BETTER than the team's.

Going back to 98, the Bucs picked WR Jacquez Green, I openly pined for WR Germane Crowell... Crowell had some really good years in the NFL... Green fizzled out... advantage-ME

In 99 the Bucs drafted DT Anthony McFarland, I had hoped for DE Jevon Kearse... I can understand why McFarland was selected but I was right, Kearse was the better NFL player... advantage-ME

In 2000, I actually predicted the first two picks for the Bucs with OG Cosey Coleman and LB Nate Webster... these two picks were nothing to brag about for either me or the Bucs...tie

In 2001, I actually predicted and wanted Kenyatta Walker, ok, that makes both of us look bad.

In 2002, I had no idea, we had no 1st or 2nd

Skipping ahead to when we had a 1st rounder but I wanted DT Tommie Harris to fall to us but he didn't, my backup choice was RB Steven Jackson who was still on the board when we selected WR Michael Clayton...advantage MEEEE! in a huge way.

Going into 2004, I wanted us to retain Thomas Jones, but no, we gave Charlie Garner a year more on his contract and $1 mil more per year to play 4 games or so for us...UGHH!

In 2005, I knew Gruden was taking Williams based on what he said but I wanted a DE, I preferred Shawn Merriman, I think Ware turned out quite a bit better, but Merriman still would have been better than Williams who I hated, then learned to like, then realized he wasn't reliable and then hated for a long time, and now I root for him but he still needs to be replaced. advantage-ME

In 2006, I wanted WR Santonio Holmes, I was so pissed when the Bucs drafted a friggen Guard Davin Joseph. I'm still not happy with the OG, he should be better, but Holmes finally turned into a star this year... but I've got to go with the Bucs on this one... advantage Bucs

In 2007, we picked a player I predicted and feared would be a colossal bust, seriously, Gaines was a 24 year old playing against 20-22 year olds-HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD!, DE Gaines Adams. Several weeks before the draft I was infatuated with DE Jamal Anderson and thought he could be another Julius Peppers untill about a two weeks before the draft and I settled on LB Patrick Willis as the player I most coveted. advantage ME! in another big way.

In 2008, I went on record to say that a T-2 defense should and would NEVER draft a CB that high in the 1st round and that it would be stupid and that we had to draft for the pass rush... the Bucs picked CB Aqib Talib and I wanted DE Philip Merling... advantage Bucs in a pretty big way.

In 2009, again I wanted the pass rush addressed and I wanted us to trade down to select DT Ziggy Hood... I did not want to draft a QB as I knew that meant rebuilding, we took QB Josh Freeman and I really like him now... I still liked Ziggy Hood and if we had him we wouldn't need to be looking at McCoy now... anyways, advantage Bucs

Final score total Me 4 Bucs 3 tie 2... I'm not 100% but we would probably be a much better team if the Bucs had taken my advice. Speaking of which, I remember in 8th grade we had to write a letter to somebody. I wrote a letter to the Bucs begging them not to draft Vinny Testaverde and to keep Steve Young....yeah, advantage ME

Anyways, I hope that Suh does indeed go #1 overall to the Rams and the Lions grab McCoy thinking he will be something other than a bust and that creates a mad rush for teams coveting Bradford before the Redskins can pick him. Which means Cleveland, Buffalo, and possibly Oakland could be trying to come down... maybe even San Francisco... to pick Bradford... meaning we can move down and pick up a good DE (Morgan, Graham) and give us more high picks to further improve the team.

Caddy 04-21-2010 08:56 AM

You beating the Bucs hey...

brasho 04-21-2010 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy (Post 2135864)
You beating the Bucs hey...

It wasn't hard.



Don't know if I mentioned also how about DT is the deepest position in the draft, and how the difference between 1b and 5 is really not much difference at all, or in this case, 1b and 8. We should use the early pick on a position that we can't grab a good player at later.

bucfan12 04-21-2010 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2136366)
It wasn't hard.



Don't know if I mentioned also how about DT is the deepest position in the draft, and how the difference between 1b and 5 is really not much difference at all, or in this case, 1b and 8. We should use the early pick on a position that we can't grab a good player at later.

Brasho, then who do you suggest we take at 3? If Bradford is off the board at 1 and you claim we shouldnt take McCoy, then who do we take? I wouldn't take Berry at 3 and I highly doubt any team will want to move up. And again, still wouldnt take a DE or OT because no DE is worth a top 5 pick and OT isn';t our biggest need.

brasho 04-21-2010 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2136500)
Brasho, then who do you suggest we take at 3? If Bradford is off the board at 1 and you claim we shouldnt take McCoy, then who do we take? I wouldn't take Berry at 3 and I highly doubt any team will want to move up. And again, still wouldnt take a DE or OT because no DE is worth a top 5 pick and OT isn';t our biggest need.

#1, you shouldn't go into your draft as a 3-13 team drafting solely from need. I agree, a safety shouldn't be picked in the top 5, and my biggest hope is that we can move down. Depending on where we move down we could target DEs Morgan or Graham, if it is still within the top 10 we could look at another of the OTs but if we stay at #3 I think we should go after OT Russell Okung. No, LT is not our biggest need, but if we did draft Okung then we would open ourselves up to endless possibilities.

If we drafted Okung we could do one of two things without making additional moves. Play him at RT for the season while Penn mans LT. Play Penn at RT and Okung at RT. Either way, Jeremy Trueblood isn't on the field and that is a huge upgrade for the O.

Or... a more likely scenario is we draft Okung... trade Penn to an LT needy team such as Dallas for their late 1st or perhaps even as low as the Lions and their #2 and some change. Either way, we improve the team at LT and then pick up another pick as well...and we don't have to hear anymore about Penn's contract mess or weight problems then we use the pick or picks to further restock our roster. With Sears hopefully on the way back, Jeremy Zuttah, a collegiate LT, can move from LG to RT fairly easily and be an improvement over Trueblood (assuming his heart is beating).

In the small chance that both Suh and Okung are off the board and for some reason nobody wants to trade up for Bradford, we could either go with Trent Williams or do the dastardly deed of selecting a safety in the top 5.

Here is where the real crime comes in selecting McCoy. If we were to select McCoy, it is highly unlikely that the team would address the DT need later in the draft so we would be stuck with McCoy despite there being better fits for us at UT in the draft.

bucfan12 04-21-2010 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2136668)
#1, you shouldn't go into your draft as a 3-13 team drafting solely from need. I agree, a safety shouldn't be picked in the top 5, and my biggest hope is that we can move down. Depending on where we move down we could target DEs Morgan or Graham, if it is still within the top 10 we could look at another of the OTs but if we stay at #3 I think we should go after OT Russell Okung. No, LT is not our biggest need, but if we did draft Okung then we would open ourselves up to endless possibilities.

If we drafted Okung we could do one of two things without making additional moves. Play him at RT for the season while Penn mans LT. Play Penn at RT and Okung at RT. Either way, Jeremy Trueblood isn't on the field and that is a huge upgrade for the O.

Or... a more likely scenario is we draft Okung... trade Penn to an LT needy team such as Dallas for their late 1st or perhaps even as low as the Lions and their #2 and some change. Either way, we improve the team at LT and then pick up another pick as well...and we don't have to hear anymore about Penn's contract mess or weight problems then we use the pick or picks to further restock our roster. With Sears hopefully on the way back, Jeremy Zuttah, a collegiate LT, can move from LG to RT fairly easily and be an improvement over Trueblood (assuming his heart is beating).

In the small chance that both Suh and Okung are off the board and for some reason nobody wants to trade up for Bradford, we could either go with Trent Williams or do the dastardly deed of selecting a safety in the top 5.

Here is where the real crime comes in selecting McCoy. If we were to select McCoy, it is highly unlikely that the team would address the DT need later in the draft so we would be stuck with McCoy despite there being better fits for us at UT in the draft.

Penn is not a force in the running game, he is more of a pass blocker, which is why he is a left tackle.

I am not sold on Okung becoming an elite LT in this league. A decent one, yes, but he isn't going to be worth that money. If we were to pay a LT top 5 money, then why not pay Donald Penn, who has played very well for us and has held his own over the past 2 seasons, that is why i dont think we take a LT.

If both players, Suh and McCoy are gone, then I wouldn't mind Berry, as I think he is the 3rd best player in this draft, with Suh and McCoy both being 1a and 1b.

As a matter of fact, I don't think we need to add another DT in this draft, maybe 5th round (torrell Troupe, UCF?) is a possibility, but I liked what I saw from Roy Miller and think he and McCoy would form a great DT duo. A run stuffer for depth might be a solid option too.

And yes, I do agree you dont draft need, but if McCoy is there at 3, we get the best player available and fills our #1 need.

brasho 04-21-2010 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2136689)
Penn is not a force in the running game, he is more of a pass blocker, which is why he is a left tackle.

I am not sold on Okung becoming an elite LT in this league. A decent one, yes, but he isn't going to be worth that money. If we were to pay a LT top 5 money, then why not pay Donald Penn, who has played very well for us and has held his own over the past 2 seasons, that is why i dont think we take a LT.

If both players, Suh and McCoy are gone, then I wouldn't mind Berry, as I think he is the 3rd best player in this draft, with Suh and McCoy both being 1a and 1b.

As a matter of fact, I don't think we need to add another DT in this draft, maybe 5th round (torrell Troupe, UCF?) is a possibility, but I liked what I saw from Roy Miller and think he and McCoy would form a great DT duo. A run stuffer for depth might be a solid option too.

And yes, I do agree you dont draft need, but if McCoy is there at 3, we get the best player available and fills our #1 need.

I think McCoy has been severely overhyped and I don't see Torrell Troupe as being a fit of any kind for this team. Guys in the 5th round or later that would be better additions would be DT Earl Mitchell of Arizona, DE/DT CJ Wilson of ECU, DT Mike Neal Purdue, DT Geno Atkins Ga, DT Jeff Owens Ga, DT DAnthony Smith LTech, DT Corey Peters Kentucky, DT Nate Collins, and DE/DT Jeffrey Fitzgerald. Troup seems to be more of a 2-gap NT type while the guys I have listed would be more 1-gap penetrators. The last time the Bucs tried a 2-gap player for the T-2 was when they wasted a 5th on Alabama fatty NT Anthony Bryant... that didn't work out then either... they need to stick to the model and go from there.

brasho 04-21-2010 03:24 PM

I like Penn, as a LT, I think he is about the 10th-12th best LT in the league, depending on how much you think FA Flozell Adams and a few others have left, but his weight may always be an issue and it doesn't matter how much of a finesse player he is, anybody would be an upgrade over Trueblood (Demar Dotson anyone?).

Caddy 04-21-2010 10:41 PM

I'd love McCoy and will be happy to see us call his name tomorrow!

bigbuc 04-21-2010 11:39 PM

McCoy at OU was better than Tommie Harris and when healthy is one of the best players at playing in the backfield.

TBBucs621 04-22-2010 08:02 AM

I really hope the Rams take Suh (they would be stupid not to as they still can get a QB later on or next year) and the Lions take McCoy. I think there will be teams wanting to go 3rd to get Bradford and we will get an additional pick. If not LT Okung would be a smart pick and think he will help protect Freeman for years to come.

brasho 04-22-2010 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbuc (Post 2138111)
McCoy at OU was better than Tommie Harris and when healthy is one of the best players at playing in the backfield.

That's your opinion, my question to you is: How is he going to get into that backfield?

brasho 04-22-2010 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBBucs621 (Post 2138574)
I really hope the Rams take Suh (they would be stupid not to as they still can get a QB later on or next year) and the Lions take McCoy. I think there will be teams wanting to go 3rd to get Bradford and we will get an additional pick. If not LT Okung would be a smart pick and think he will help protect Freeman for years to come.

You're a smart guy! There are comparable DTs to McCoy until round 3 in this draft. Why not draft at a position that has good talent at the top but is thin in other areas and select from the deep DT class later?

Caddy 04-22-2010 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2138800)
You're a smart guy! There are comparable DTs to McCoy until round 3 in this draft. Why not draft at a position that has good talent at the top but is thin in other areas and select from the deep DT class later?

This I flat out disagree with. McCoy is viewed as an elite talent for a reason.

brasho 04-22-2010 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy (Post 2139407)
This I flat out disagree with. McCoy is viewed as an elite talent for a reason.

And so was Glenn Dorsey and Gaines Adams, and I viewed both of them as NOT elite talents...

The sheep being into this pick doesn't surprise me, if somebody says something enough then eventually the sheep believe it...I'm telling you, there are several warning signs that he is NOT elite.

Caddy 04-22-2010 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2139479)
And so was Glenn Dorsey and Gaines Adams, and I viewed both of them as NOT elite talents...

The sheep being into this pick doesn't surprise me, if somebody says something enough then eventually the sheep believe it...I'm telling you, there are several warning signs that he is NOT elite.

People also had Peyton Manning, Calvin Johnson and Joe Thomas as elite talents.

Just because some 'elite' talents bust doesn't mean McCoy will. I think there is a much bigger chance of Suh busting than there is of McCoy doing so.

bucfan12 04-22-2010 06:41 PM

The difference here about Adams, and Dorsey is they were top 5 picks in drafts that were considered weak. THere are about 40-50 players that grade out as 1st round picks in this draft and to be considered an elite prospect, I think it says something.

BTW, i dont remember them saying Gaines Adams and Glenn Dorsey as elite prospects; as Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson were considered that in those drafts. As Jake Long and Matt Ryan were also.

brasho 04-22-2010 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy (Post 2139548)
People also had Peyton Manning, Calvin Johnson and Joe Thomas as elite talents.

Just because some 'elite' talents bust doesn't mean McCoy will. I think there is a much bigger chance of Suh busting than there is of McCoy doing so.

No, McCoy will bust because he is the type of player that relies so heavily on speed and athleticism, like Dorsey was, and the fact is that he is not that speedy or athletic, like Dorsey. Don't forget, the players that McCoy did well against will never play football in the NFL. OGs are the worst athletes on a team. Good LTs move to RT in the NFL, good RTs move to OG in the NFL, and good OGs just move on.

bucfan12 04-22-2010 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2140926)
No, McCoy will bust because he is the type of player that relies so heavily on speed and athleticism, like Dorsey was, and the fact is that he is not that speedy or athletic, like Dorsey. Don't forget, the players that McCoy did well against will never play football in the NFL. OGs are the worst athletes on a team. Good LTs move to RT in the NFL, good RTs move to OG in the NFL, and good OGs just move on.

Then I guess Suh won't do well bc he dominated G's, as he was a DT. That made no sense what so ever.

Reason I think McCoy will work hard and become a great player is because you see all the media and polls and scouts think Suh is just this can't miss player, well McCoy will want to prove him wrong, just like how Josh Freeman has that chip on his shoulder no even being in the discussion of Stafford and Sanchez

etk 04-23-2010 08:57 AM

I'm not even gonna address your "arguments" seriously because of how incoherent and incorrect you are. The original post is potentially the worst post I've ever seen on a forum.

To all the other Bucs fans on the forum, cheers to getting one of the best DT prospects in years.


bucfan12 04-23-2010 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etk (Post 2142416)
I'm not even gonna address your "arguments" seriously because of how incoherent and incorrect you are. The original post is potentially the worst post I've ever seen on a forum.

To all the other Bucs fans on the forum, cheers to getting one of the best DT prospects in years.


Exactly what I am trying to say. Great Pick by the Bucs. Hopefully we land a WR, CB and DE today.

Caddy 04-23-2010 12:51 PM

There is so much value at the top of the second I can't wait!

zachsaints52 04-23-2010 01:49 PM

For the record I hope Mccoy busts and Weatherspoon is overrated :P But good luck with your next pick!

KennyG 04-23-2010 03:04 PM

Griffen then Benn then best available CB! I will be happy as h* if it goes down like that...

KennyG 04-23-2010 03:06 PM

Yea the same type of people were/are saying Freeman was a bust as soon as we drafted him/or after half a season with no WRs. How about wait and see before we call someone a bust/super star?


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