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-   -   GM Heckert Shows Why the Browns Always Stink (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51475)

diemertsdawgs 03-09-2012 03:32 AM

GM Heckert Shows Why the Browns Always Stink
 
:grrrrrr: Tom Heckert says in his press conference the Browns have no interest in signing Peyton Manning and also saying we will not go crazy once Tuesday comes around. Pretty much assuring they will not pursue any real quality names in free agency. This is why we suck year in and year out. We should be going after Matt Flynn - V.Jackson - R.Moss - M.Colston - L.Landry -Brandon Carr - Michael Bush if no HILLIS - Andre Carter - Curtis Lofton SOME OF THESE Guys! Not all obviously but a couple would be nice.
As far as the draft is concerned, I like RG3 but not to give up too much to get him. Ryan Tannehill or Brandon Weeden are very viable options later in the first round or second round for Weeden. Who knows? But we need to "wake up" in free agency if we plan to "catch up" in our division and the league. I am sick of being a cellar dweller.

SuperPacker 03-09-2012 03:54 AM

have you heard of the team boards?

Scott Wright 03-09-2012 06:46 AM

diemertsdawgs,

At this point the reason the Browns are so bad is because they have one of the worst quarterbacks in the league and easily the worst quarterback in their division. Until Cleveland fixes their situation under center nothing else they do will matter. That is why they should do whatever it takes to land RG3, but word I've gotten is that they are hesitant to give up what it will take to move up, which is why Washington is the favorite for #2. It's a shame really because the Browns are perfectly positioned to land a franchise signal caller.

Brown Leader 03-09-2012 08:42 AM


Iamcanadian 03-09-2012 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright (Post 2892332)
diemertsdawgs,

At this point the reason the Browns are so bad is because they have one of the worst quarterbacks in the league and easily the worst quarterback in their division. Until Cleveland fixes their situation under center nothing else they do will matter. That is why they should do whatever it takes to land RG3, but word I've gotten is that they are hesitant to give up what it will take to move up, which is why Washington is the favorite for #2. It's a shame really because the Browns are perfectly positioned to land a franchise signal caller.

I agree, Lerner is right up there with the worst owners in pro sports and I'm afraid, as long as he owns the Browns, they will never be a contender.
A terrible shame for a once great franchise.

San Diego Chicken 03-09-2012 03:27 PM

The problem is the Browns need more than just RGIII. Sure, if they were sitting there at #2, you rush to the podium to take him. But pretty much sacrificing this year's and next year's draft when you're an under-talented team is dangerous, especially a team like the Browns that free agents aren't crazy about. Lets be honest, Heckert is just Holmgren's talking piece and Manning would never have gone there anyway, he's just saving face.

Also, in the whole trade talks, St. Louis stupidly revealed their hand. Everyone knows they're desperate to deal that pick, so why offer them an arm and a leg? You hold your position until the last minute at which point you make a final proposal.

fear the elf 03-09-2012 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken (Post 2893053)
The problem is the Browns need more than just RGIII. Sure, if they were sitting there at #2, you rush to the podium to take him. But pretty much sacrificing this year's and next year's draft when you're an under-talented team is dangerous, especially a team like the Browns that free agents aren't crazy about. Lets be honest, Heckert is just Holmgren's talking piece and Manning would never have gone there anyway, he's just saving face.

Also, in the whole trade talks, St. Louis stupidly revealed their hand. Everyone knows they're desperate to deal that pick, so why offer them an arm and a leg? You hold your position until the last minute at which point you make a final proposal.

100% agree with everything but the bolded. Heckert has almost total control over the draft and personnel decisions. Holmgren did step in once for Colt, but that's it.

fear the elf 03-09-2012 03:42 PM

As for the OP, overreact a little more, please. How many teams that "win" free agency are consistently good? Heckert will, as he has since he's been here, pick up solid contributors and depth like Chris Gocong, Dimitri Patterson, etc.

I think I've made my position pretty well known as of late on the whole RG3 thing:
- If you sell out this year's and next year's draft for him, he doesn't have any help in his first two years and gets killed. I don't think it's nearly as simple as Scott always makes it sound with his "golden rule." Just because he's talented doesn't mean he can't fail in the NFL.
- If, however, you can get RG3 at a reasonable cost (read: #4, #37, and a 5, 6, or 7 rounder), you go for it. He has a chance to be really good, and if you can add talent around him, it really boosts his chances.

fear the elf 03-09-2012 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian (Post 2892542)
I agree, Lerner is right up there with the worst owners in pro sports and I'm afraid, as long as he owns the Browns, they will never be a contender.
A terrible shame for a once great franchise.

IAC wants to blame Lerner . . . what else is new? We're seriously going down this road again?

It's irrelevant to the discussion. He hired Holmgren to make the football decisions for him. Lerner doesn't do anything but sign checks, and he's been more than willing to dig into those deep pockets.

STsACE 03-09-2012 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diemertsdawgs (Post 2892295)
:grrrrrr: Tom Heckert says in his press conference the Browns have no interest in signing Peyton Manning and also saying we will not go crazy once Tuesday comes around. Pretty much assuring they will not pursue any real quality names in free agency. This is why we suck year in and year out. We should be going after Matt Flynn - V.Jackson - R.Moss - M.Colston - L.Landry -Brandon Carr - Michael Bush if no HILLIS - Andre Carter - Curtis Lofton SOME OF THESE Guys! Not all obviously but a couple would be nice.
As far as the draft is concerned, I like RG3 but not to give up too much to get him. Ryan Tannehill or Brandon Weeden are very viable options later in the first round or second round for Weeden. Who knows? But we need to "wake up" in free agency if we plan to "catch up" in our division and the league. I am sick of being a cellar dweller.

Don't understand how you could be mad with him saying "We won't go CRAZY in FA". Sounded more like they have targets to pursue but aren't going to let anyone know until FA actually begins and they don't plan on overpaying to get the guys they want (a little overpaying may be needed since top tier FAs don't usaully go to a 4-12 team.

And with RG3, sure they're looking at him and no, they shouldn't be offering the max that STL wants, it'll just end up driving up the asking price even more as Washington will have a chance to one up and then we will be forced to throw even more into a deal. And no to Weeden for us please, you don't spend a premium draft pick on a 29 yr. old rookie QB, unless you only need a QB, we have too many other holes to fill with our high draft picks.

Once FA hits next week, we'll know, or be able to speculate a little more, on what direction the FO is focusing on for the top of the draft. Too early to panic.

I'm not worried as I don't want our FO to be saying "We going all in on RG3 and we're spending all our cap on the top 5 FAs". There's a reason why the teams that usually are considered the winners of FA don't improve a heck of a lot, the players need to fit the team. We need key positions in FA, not just the top FAs available.

STsACE 03-09-2012 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright (Post 2892332)
diemertsdawgs,

At this point the reason the Browns are so bad is because they have one of the worst quarterbacks in the league and easily the worst quarterback in their division. Until Cleveland fixes their situation under center nothing else they do will matter. That is why they should do whatever it takes to land RG3, but word I've gotten is that they are hesitant to give up what it will take to move up, which is why Washington is the favorite for #2. It's a shame really because the Browns are perfectly positioned to land a franchise signal caller.

I can't entirely agree with everything you posted. Yes, we need a QB upgrade, but not at the cost at whatever it takes, especially this early as the price could get ridiculous come actual day of draft.

Even if we were to keep topping the Skins offer and they up it and we top, that does nothing for our team long term. We'll be forced to go crazy in FA to fill the holes we have. If we give up potentially 3 premium picks this year and potentially 2 premium picks next year, we're screwed. I think most Browns fans will agree we need at least 5 starters on this team from this years draft and next years outside of the QB position; WR, RB, RT, DE, S and possibly a OLB upgrade as well. We give up the picks, we're forced to find those later in the draft which have less chance of being significant and thrust into a FA frenzy. Not saying every pick pans out, but Heckert in his 2 years already has hit on more of our top picks than most of our previous GMs combined.

If it comes down to paying a king's ranson for RG3, then I'd prefer our FO to grab one of the 2nd tier QBs to push McCoy for the starting spot. We're unfortunately in the toughest division in the NFL. A QB alone doesn't start bringing us in their caliber if we can't put pieces around him.

Steady Lurkin 03-09-2012 04:18 PM

Remember when the Browns went crazy in FA under Phil Savage? How'd that work out?

STsACE 03-09-2012 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steady Lurkin (Post 2893140)
Remember when the Browns went crazy in FA under Phil Savage? How'd that work out?

I still have nightmares.......................:grrrrrr:

keylime_5 03-09-2012 04:25 PM

yeah, and remember when the Colts, Steelers, Packers, Patriots, etc. didn't go crazy in free agency?

bearsfan_51 03-11-2012 12:43 AM

As an Ohio native who grew up a non-Browns fan, I'll usually take the opportunity to give my family **** about the Browns.

With that said, I actually think Heckert has done a real nice job building this Browns team so far. Haden, Taylor, Sheard, Little, Ward, and hell even McCoy were all good to great picks. Seriously, I think the Browns are a real sleeper team if they keep building through the draft like this. Sacrificing everything for RGIII like the Redskins did simply doesn't make sense for the Browns. It probably doesn't make much sense for the Redskins either, but it definitely doesn't for the Browns.

If I'm a Browns fan, I'm more optimistic about this current front office than I have been about any since the team came back in 99.

Matthew Jones 03-11-2012 12:52 AM

Is it possible everyone is making a rash decision when it comes to Colt McCoy? I don't watch a lot of Browns games but statistically he improved substantially from his rookie season to his sophomore campaign and seems to be a good fit for the west coast offense Shurmur is implementing. McCoy is still young and it's not like he was really helped out this season by any offensive weapons. Peyton Hillis had a terrible season, Montario Hardesty missed a lot of time and averaged just three yards per carry, Greg Little dropped everything, and Ben Watson's brains are being scrambled. I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about quarterback in Cleveland this season; maybe try drafting Blackmon or Richardson and adding some more options later in the draft or via free agency and see what happens. How about something like this:

4. WR Justin Blackmon, Oklahoma St.*
22. OT Jonathan Martin, Stanford*
37. CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida*
68. RB LaMichael James, Oregon*

PoopSandwich 03-11-2012 01:14 AM

You ever see Brady Quinn play for the Browns? Colt was a *MARGINAL* upgrade from that.

I still think the dream offseason for us at this point is re-sign Hillis, get Flynn, and get Blackmon and Wright in the draft (hence the word dream)

CowboysBeastMode 03-11-2012 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Jones (Post 2895435)
Is it possible everyone is making a rash decision when it comes to Colt McCoy? I don't watch a lot of Browns games but statistically he improved substantially from his rookie season to his sophomore campaign and seems to be a good fit for the west coast offense Shurmur is implementing. McCoy is still young and it's not like he was really helped out this season by any offensive weapons. Peyton Hillis had a terrible season, Montario Hardesty missed a lot of time and averaged just three yards per carry, Greg Little dropped everything, and Ben Watson's brains are being scrambled. I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about quarterback in Cleveland this season; maybe try drafting Blackmon or Richardson and adding some more options later in the draft or via free agency and see what happens. How about something like this:

4. WR Justin Blackmon, Oklahoma St.*
22. OT Jonathan Martin, Stanford*
37. CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida*
68. RB LaMichael James, Oregon*

i agree completely in that west coast offense colt mccoy is a good fit. i don't understand how these so called experts saying mccoy is not starting level qb when they don't even have a skill player on offense that could actually start for anyone else in the league

if they wanna blame someone blame eric mangenius and whoever that aweful the gm they had with him. they got rid of all the talent on offense for mid rounder pick b/c they big had egos

fear the elf 03-11-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Jones (Post 2895435)
Is it possible everyone is making a rash decision when it comes to Colt McCoy? I don't watch a lot of Browns games but statistically he improved substantially from his rookie season to his sophomore campaign and seems to be a good fit for the west coast offense Shurmur is implementing. McCoy is still young and it's not like he was really helped out this season by any offensive weapons. Peyton Hillis had a terrible season, Montario Hardesty missed a lot of time and averaged just three yards per carry, Greg Little dropped everything, and Ben Watson's brains are being scrambled. I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about quarterback in Cleveland this season; maybe try drafting Blackmon or Richardson and adding some more options later in the draft or via free agency and see what happens. How about something like this:

4. WR Justin Blackmon, Oklahoma St.*
22. OT Jonathan Martin, Stanford*
37. CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida*
68. RB LaMichael James, Oregon*

Yeah, I do feel that we've passed judgement a little rashly and that there is still a glimmer of hope for McCoy, although there are some compelling arguments against him. Also, it feels as though nobody is willing to give him a chance with weapons. They've already seen enough to pass judgement, even though, as you mentioned, there wasn't a dynamic playmaker, that could stay healthy, to speak of on this team.

I'd be willing to give him a full off-season with Shurmur learning the intricacies of the offense and let him play out this season with upgraded weapons, but I think 80% of Cleveland fans would be up-in-arms about that.

I'm not a huge fan of your draft though. I think Martin is a wasted pick as he isn't powerful enough to run behind at RT in our division with such tough defenses. Plus, I'm not a fan of LaMichael James, although I do recognize our dire need for home run threats at the skill positions.

fear the elf 03-11-2012 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowboysBeastMode (Post 2895575)
i agree completely in that west coast offense colt mccoy is a good fit. i don't understand how these so called experts saying mccoy is not starting level qb when they don't even have a skill player on offense that could actually start for anyone else in the league

if they wanna blame someone blame eric mangenius and whoever that aweful the gm they had with him. they got rid of all the talent on offense for mid rounder pick b/c they big had egos

The GM you're thinking of is George Kokinis.

bucfan12 03-11-2012 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright (Post 2892332)
diemertsdawgs,

At this point the reason the Browns are so bad is because they have one of the worst quarterbacks in the league and easily the worst quarterback in their division. Until Cleveland fixes their situation under center nothing else they do will matter. That is why they should do whatever it takes to land RG3, but word I've gotten is that they are hesitant to give up what it will take to move up, which is why Washington is the favorite for #2. It's a shame really because the Browns are perfectly positioned to land a franchise signal caller.

Cleveland has not been able to find a Franchise QB. Mike Holmgren, who is running the show, hit on Matt Hasselback, a late round pick and back up QB in Green Bay once. He's trying to do the same with a guy like McCoy and would rather invest high round picks on talent surrounding the QB. There is no way they will reach for Tanehill at 4. If he's there at 22, possibly. But I still question it.

He will surround McCoy with talent.

Iamcanadian 03-11-2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Jones (Post 2895435)
Is it possible everyone is making a rash decision when it comes to Colt McCoy? I don't watch a lot of Browns games but statistically he improved substantially from his rookie season to his sophomore campaign and seems to be a good fit for the west coast offense Shurmur is implementing. McCoy is still young and it's not like he was really helped out this season by any offensive weapons. Peyton Hillis had a terrible season, Montario Hardesty missed a lot of time and averaged just three yards per carry, Greg Little dropped everything, and Ben Watson's brains are being scrambled. I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about quarterback in Cleveland this season; maybe try drafting Blackmon or Richardson and adding some more options later in the draft or via free agency and see what happens. How about something like this:

4. WR Justin Blackmon, Oklahoma St.*
22. OT Jonathan Martin, Stanford*
37. CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida*
68. RB LaMichael James, Oregon*

You have to be kidding, McCoy will never be a true starting NFL QB, he is
2nd string all the way. Holmgren himself, had clearly stated that McCoy isn't the answer and that a starting QB must be found.

The 3 teams ahead of them in their division are all settled at QB and the Browns will remain in last place till they solve their QB position.

If they don't get a QB this season, they are looking at the strong possibility of being in last place for at least the next 5 years and if they keep putting off finding a QB, a decade can quickly pass before a new management team finally gets the message.

mdmgrand 03-11-2012 01:53 PM

The Browns need playmakers.... I say give McCoy one more year, complete this draft in the first four rounds, with a strict BPA in rounds 5,6, and 7.

4) Justin Blackmon WR
- This just makes sense, get a true number one receiver, Blackmon and Little would be a physical combination (now all Little has to do is learn how to catch). Solves Playmaking at WR

22) Zach Brown OLB
- I would like to see an athletic/rangy backer with Gocong and Jackson

37) LaMichael James RB
- This might be a little high for James, but with his speed, catching, and vision.... He'd be great in the offense, whether it be with Hillis or Hardesty, or even both of them. Solves Playmaking at RB

68) Bobbie Massie OT
- He might not fall this far if tackles start going fast ahead of him, but the Browns need a tackle opposite of Thomas that is not an aging journeyman

100) Jamell Fleming CB
- They need depth in the secondary, Fleming is an experienced, all around corner from a top program, worth an early fourth.

118) Russell Wilson QB
- If only he was taller... but he isn't, the Browns take a chance on Wilson, who has a strong and accurate arm, athleticism, and also production in a Pro Offense. I'd say those positives outweigh his main negative, his height. Holmgren also pushed for Seneca Wallace in Seattle and again with the Browns. Wilson is a better prospect than Wallace.

Iamcanadian 03-11-2012 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fear the elf (Post 2893081)
IAC wants to blame Lerner . . . what else is new? We're seriously going down this road again?

It's irrelevant to the discussion. He hired Holmgren to make the football decisions for him. Lerner doesn't do anything but sign checks, and he's been more than willing to dig into those deep pockets.

Your right, what concern is it that Lerner is our owner??? He and his son bought the team in 1999, 13 years ago, and we have been so competitive since.
All great teams start with solid owners who then hire the right people who then draft and sign the right players, so what does that say about your beloved owners????
I guess your prepared to wait another 13 years before we see any growth?????:grrrrrr:


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