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-   -   Star Lotulelei vs. Johnathan Hankins (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53784)

bored of education 09-10-2012 08:13 PM

Star Lotulelei vs. Johnathan Hankins
 
Let me preface this thread by saying I think both these guys end up being top 10 picks in the 2013 NFL Draft.

Star is listed at 6'4, 320
Hankins is listed at 6'3, 322

Star has the upside to be a game changing gap penetrating DT in a 4 man front. Could also work in hybrid fronts. He is much more of a penetrating DT than a stout anchor. Star has more athletic ability and can be a Ngata/Suh guy given time. He cannot two gap as of yet but given time could do it if asked.

Hankins is just a mountain of a man who can penetrate and be stout at POA. He may not provide the upside of Star but he is far better at controlling the gaps and stopping the run. He needs to improve his pass rushing, but why? He shold not be asked to do that.

So just some quick thoughts on these two guys. I know picking one over the other really depends on scheme but who do you prefer and why?

Duffman57 09-11-2012 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bored of education (Post 3112858)
Let me preface this thread by saying I think both these guys end up being top 10 picks in the 2013 NFL Draft.

Star is listed at 6'4, 320
Hankins is listed at 6'3, 322

Star has the upside to be a game changing gap penetrating DT in a 4 man front. Could also work in hybrid fronts. He is much more of a penetrating DT than a stout anchor. Star has more athletic ability and can be a Ngata/Suh guy given time. He cannot two gap as of yet but given time could do it if asked.

Hankins is just a mountain of a man who can penetrate and be stout at POA. He may not provide the upside of Star but he is far better at controlling the gaps and stopping the run. He needs to improve his pass rushing, but why? He shold not be asked to do that.

So just some quick thoughts on these two guys. I know picking one over the other really depends on scheme but who do you prefer and why?

I'm kind of split on this one. Star looks like a Haloti Ngata type athlete. Just so insanely athletic for a man that big, and carries weight as good as anyone i've seen, but he's insanely raw. He'll run himself out of plays because he penetrates too much or blows his guy back too far...stuff like that. I'm not sure i've ever seen this TYPE of athlete at the DT position. He's so quick and explosive upfield, yet so strong at the point, he's nearly impossible to contain, but at times he's too dominant and doesn't know what to do with himself past the line. He's also shown a very good ability to drop into coverage for some reason, he's great at it.

Hankins is another great athlete and for some reason O$U is stuck on playing him at the 5T for reasons i cant fathom, but like you said, a big body, who can penetrate and make plays, but is also very physical and stout at the point. But the big thing here is that he's great at reading plays from behind the LOS. He's exactly the opposite of Star, he's great at NOT dominating himself out of plays. He is more of a NT and Star is more of a 43 DT that can play any interior position. He really reminds me of BJ Raji at BC. Very similar players and athletes.

Overall, at this point, the upside on Star forces me to go with him, but if you want a player to get in and play right away, Hankins is ur guy.

duesouth 09-11-2012 02:37 AM

I try and watch at least 5 games of each prospect per year - first of Lotulelei's was the Utah State game. Came away disappointed. Clearly can hold up against the double team - but thought he played too high. I've heard the Ngata comparison and yes, Lotulelei is naturally powerful - but Ngata even in college had a burst and I didn't see that enough from Lotulelei. Got penetration a couple of times, but balance seemed to be an issue when he did. A bit like Poe last year - raw technique wise - not as disruptive as Poe, but held up better against double teams.

AntoinCD 09-11-2012 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bored of education (Post 3112858)
Let me preface this thread by saying I think both these guys end up being top 10 picks in the 2013 NFL Draft.

Star is listed at 6'4, 320
Hankins is listed at 6'3, 322

Star has the upside to be a game changing gap penetrating DT in a 4 man front. Could also work in hybrid fronts. He is much more of a penetrating DT than a stout anchor. Star has more athletic ability and can be a Ngata/Suh guy given time. He cannot two gap as of yet but given time could do it if asked.

Hankins is just a mountain of a man who can penetrate and be stout at POA. He may not provide the upside of Star but he is far better at controlling the gaps and stopping the run. He needs to improve his pass rushing, but why? He shold not be asked to do that.

So just some quick thoughts on these two guys. I know picking one over the other really depends on scheme but who do you prefer and why?

If a DT can't provide a pretty good rush on passing situations then he won't (or at least shouldn't) be a top 10 pick in the draft.

All the top DTs nowadays can provide interior rush. A big example of players changing as the NFL changes is Vince Wilfork. This was a guy who averaged around 60% of snaps as a 2 down anchor at NT. Now he is an 80+% guy who can be effective against the pass while still being dominant against the run.

Even the monster 34 NTs now need to help push the pocket, especially with more teams going to different fronts

3/4, 4/3, 4/2, 2/4, 3/3, 1/4 etc

A guy who can only be an anchor against the run and have to subbed off on passing situations is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard against most of the better teams in the NFL - GB, NO, NE etc

villagewarrior 09-11-2012 08:06 AM

I think Lotulelei and Hankins are both what people are hoping Dontari Poe will become. Another reason I'm upset with the Poe pick is I think this year will shape up as a very good NG/DT class.

bored of education 09-11-2012 06:30 PM

I may have mistype my thought. I was just saying it is not what he is asked to do regularly and people tend to say its a weakness of his. You cannot judge someone's weakness when he is not asked to do something. He often plays in a 5 tech rol in a 3-4. Interesting usage of Big Hank.

Villagewarrior. The Chiefs picked Poe and you cannot speculate how a class of DT/NT's is going to shape the following year. You cannot really do that with any position. Your area and national scouts can but you cannot pass on a position knowing what is ahead the following year.

Matthew Jones 09-11-2012 07:14 PM

Hankins seems like more of a true run stuffer than Lotulelei, who is easily the most disruptive of the two in opposing backfields, at least. I see Lotulelei as more of a one-gapper, and he should go higher in the draft.

duesouth 09-17-2012 04:16 AM

1st detailed watch of Hankins this weekend against Cal and more impressed with him than Lotulelei. Not used in the best way at times by Ohio State - lined up one time in a wide 9 (!!!) - but mostly used as a 3 technique in a 3 man hybrid front with OLB Nathan Williams up at the line and John Simon wide on the other side. Garrett Goebel lined up over the center more than Hankins. I see Hankins best as a 1 technique.

Hankins looks quick for his size - very powerful - plays lower than Lotulelei. Can stack and shed - can't be blocked with just one man. When matched up against a senior center (Brian Schwenke) had his way with him. Think he can one gap - more suited to a Steelers type system than a Wade Phillips style one though.

NFL Draft Scout estimate Lotulelei is faster in the 40 - but after my off season work and one detailed look each this year, Hankins ahead fairly comfortably.

Due to watch Lotulelei again later in week in the BYU game from Saturday - big game for him will be USC especially if Khaled Holmes is back for the Trojans.

villagewarrior 09-17-2012 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bored of education (Post 3113783)
I may have mistype my thought. I was just saying it is not what he is asked to do regularly and people tend to say its a weakness of his. You cannot judge someone's weakness when he is not asked to do something. He often plays in a 5 tech rol in a 3-4. Interesting usage of Big Hank.

Villagewarrior. The Chiefs picked Poe and you cannot speculate how a class of DT/NT's is going to shape the following year. You cannot really do that with any position. Your area and national scouts can but you cannot pass on a position knowing what is ahead the following year.

Eh, it's not the biggest or only reason I would've passed on him, but it would've been in my mind if I'm paying attention to whats going on.

Besides that, there were better players the Chiefs could have taken at 11 this year.

bored of education 10-11-2012 10:37 PM

The more I watch Hankins the more I like him, but Star was impressive at times vs. USC then was dominated. But that will happen with all War Daddies

descendency 10-11-2012 11:02 PM

If you draft a top 10 run stuffer, that had better be the guy that makes your run defense give up -1 ypc.



Looks like a 2 down 43 NT to me. Not a top 10 pick.

edit: Star is practically a yard or two in the back field when QBs get the ball in shotgun. He's a much much better player.

Scotty D 10-11-2012 11:29 PM

Not to get off topic boe, but could you give me a quick rundown of how Poe has done this year?

D-Unit 10-12-2012 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty D (Post 3147370)
Not to get off topic boe, but could you give me a quick rundown of how Poe has done this year?

lulz .

Lotulelei > Hankins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poe.

Brent 10-12-2012 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD (Post 3113366)
about as useful as a chocolate fireguard

Haha, this should not go unnoticed.

FUNBUNCHER 10-12-2012 07:43 AM

Hankins reminds me of BJ Raji, their builds are so similar.
The power, quickness. Anyone else see that comparison?

Matthew Jones 10-12-2012 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER (Post 3147452)
Hankins reminds me of BJ Raji, their builds are so similar.
The power, quickness. Anyone else see that comparison?

Raji is much quicker if you ask me. I'm not sure Hankins is the type of athlete that many of the other recent top nose tackle prospects were (especially Ngata, who's he's compared to often.)

J-Spot 10-12-2012 11:22 AM

If he can't generate some kind of pass rush from the inside, I don't want him even in the entire first round.

Pass on Lotulelei and Hankins. I'd rather spend that pick on a guy like Jarvis Jones or Alex Okafor even if I need a DT.

Cigaro 10-12-2012 11:24 AM

I would take Lotulelei over Hankins, although I'd be happy to have either on my team. Hankins is a very good prospect with most everything you look for in a prospect at his position, but Lotulelei has those same qualities with noticeably better athleticism in addition.

Cigaro 10-12-2012 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Spot (Post 3147571)
If he can't generate some kind of pass rush from the inside, I don't want him even in the entire first round.

Pass on Lotulelei and Hankins. I'd rather spend that pick on a guy like Jarvis Jones or Alex Okafor even if I need a DT.

Even if they aren't getting to the quarterbacks by themselves, defensive tackles can create a pass rush by proxy, which is basically the main philosophy behind the 3-4 pass rush. By occupying lineman, they can free up the ends and other rushers to put themselves into advantageous one-on-one matchups.

TitanHope 10-12-2012 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro (Post 3147576)
Even if they aren't getting to the quarterbacks by themselves, defensive tackles can create a pass rush by proxy, which is basically the main philosophy behind the 3-4 pass rush. By occupying lineman, they can free up the ends and other rushers to put themselves into advantageous one-on-one matchups.

Not to mention, being able to collapse a pocket. He may not get the sack, but a DT can push the QB backwards in the pocket and into the reach of DE's bending off the edge. Haynesworth made a living doing that in Tennessee, and Vanden Bosch reaped the benefits.

socentre44 10-12-2012 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duffman57 (Post 3113356)
I'm kind of split on this one. Star looks like a Haloti Ngata type athlete. Just so insanely athletic for a man that big, and carries weight as good as anyone i've seen, but he's insanely raw. He'll run himself out of plays because he penetrates too much or blows his guy back too far...stuff like that. I'm not sure i've ever seen this TYPE of athlete at the DT position. He's so quick and explosive upfield, yet so strong at the point, he's nearly impossible to contain, but at times he's too dominant and doesn't know what to do with himself past the line. He's also shown a very good ability to drop into coverage for some reason, he's great at it.

Nice scouting report. This is exactly what Star did in the Utah v. SC game. Even when overplayed himself, he gave his teammates great opportunities to make plays but they didn't advantage of that.

When Star is in the NFL the guys around him will definitely capitalize on his disruptiveness.

JoeJoeBrown 10-12-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socentre44 (Post 3147727)

When Star is in the NFL the guys around him will definitely capitalize on his disruptiveness.

This is the strategy that I am employed to pass my analog microcircuit design course.

jdhommert 10-12-2012 06:40 PM

Does Hankins compare to Brockers? Run stuffing DT?

BuckeyeDan17 10-12-2012 06:48 PM

Simply put: star > big hank. Although I will say I cant stand how fickells dumb ass is using him.

villagewarrior 10-12-2012 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty D (Post 3147370)
Not to get off topic boe, but could you give me a quick rundown of how Poe has done this year?

Poe has surprised me so far. Not many big plays (which was to be expected) but you don't see Poe getting pushed off the line and he shows a lot of maneuverability for such a big man.


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