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-   -   Ndamukong Suh - Bust? (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54510)

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 01:37 PM

Ndamukong Suh - Bust?
 
This guy was supposed to be the second coming of Reggie White. He was a dominant, brutal player in college, and he was a deserving #2 overall pick in the 2010 draft.

After spending his rookie season rushing the passer almost exclusively in Jim Schwartz's Wide-9 defensive line, he posted stellar numbers for a DT (10.0 sacks) and was voted Defensive Rookie of the Year, a Pro Bowler, and an All-Pro.

Since that 2010 rookie season? He has been average or worse. In many games he doesn't show up at all. He has completely failed to show the dominant line play that many people thought would become his hallmark in the NFL.

People in the NFL question his dedication and drive. Because Suh was heralded as a dominant defensive player throughout college and heading into the NFL, he probably just thought he could "show up" and dominate immediately. Suh probably lacks the fundamental work ethic and motivation to work at his craft and become better. In the NFL, being strong and/or fast often isn't enough - the best players also out-work and out-study everyone else in addition to being physically dominant.

Here's an article that quotes an anonymous scout on Suh:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...er_atl_sessler


What do you guys think? Is it safe to consider Suh a "bust" now because he has failed to be the dominant player we expected he would become after he was drafted #2 overall?

ImBrotherCain 11-14-2012 01:39 PM

I don't understand why this is a thread at this point... its been 2.5 seasons?

Apparently there is no time to develop and grow... if you are the #2 pick you need to be the best at your position coming out of college.

bucfan12 11-14-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBrotherCain (Post 3182147)
I don't understand why this is a thread at this point... its been 2.5 seasons?

Apparently there is no time to develop and grow... if you are the #2 pick you need to be the best at your position coming out of college.

You are right but I remember correctly many wrote off Gerald McCoy as a bust his 1st year. He's healthy and he leads the bucs to te top run defense in the nfl and it's the same cast that was without him in 2011 where they rated 32.

vidae 11-14-2012 01:43 PM

I KNEW a Buc fan would just HAVE to come post here about McCoy. I knew it. :njx:

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBrotherCain (Post 3182147)
I don't understand why this is a thread at this point... its been 2.5 seasons?

Apparently there is no time to develop and grow... if you are the #2 pick you need to be the best at your position coming out of college.

If he's not getting it done after three seasons, then something is probably amiss. Most of the best players begin to dominate by their second season at the very latest.

Suh is always going to be held to a higher standard because of all the hype he had coming out of college, and being the #2 pick. He was supposed to be dominant.

Suh was supposed to be what JJ Watt *is*. Watt has been consistently dominant from his first game in the NFL until now.

Suh actually played *better* in his rookie season than he has since then. That calls into question his work ethic and motivation. It seems as if he just doesn't *want* to be great.

bucfan12 11-14-2012 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vidae (Post 3182149)
I KNEW a Buc fan would just HAVE to come post here about McCoy. I knew it. :njx:

Why not? All we heard was him and suh aren't even on the same level. What about now?

AntoinCD 11-14-2012 01:48 PM

I'm not sure I would call him a bust. A dissapointment? Yes, but not a bust.The term bust is generally held for people who have come into the league and done nothing. Suh had a great first year, never great against the run but then again the wide 9 doesn't expect the linemen to be great aginst the run. His play has tailed off but he is still a starter and has the ability to dominate games. If he is still underwhelming in another year or two then maybe he can be called a bust, but not at this point

Jvig43 11-14-2012 01:49 PM

Remember when Cam Newton was the best player ever after week one last season?

ImBrotherCain 11-14-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3182150)
If he's not getting it done after three seasons, then something is probably amiss. Most of the best players begin to dominate by their second season at the very latest.

Suh is always going to be held to a higher standard because of all the hype he had coming out of college, and being the #2 pick. He was supposed to be dominant.

Suh was supposed to be what JJ Watt *is*. Watt has been consistently dominant from his first game in the NFL until now.

Suh actually played *better* in his rookie season than he has since then. That calls into question his work ethic and motivation. It seems as if he just doesn't *want* to be great.

Apparently Aaron Rodgers was a bust because he didn't beat out Brett Favre after his rookie season. :facepalm:

With that bit of smartassery out of the way I can continue. Comparing JJ Watt to Suh is insanity for a number of reasons including scheme. Using a 3-4 DE and comparing his dominance to a 4-3 defensive tackle doesn't prove your point any better.

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBrotherCain (Post 3182156)
Apparently Aaron Rodgers was a bust because he didn't beat out Brett Favre after his rookie season. :facepalm:

A developmental QB sitting on the bench behind a Hall of Fame starter is a looooootttttt different than a plug-n-play elite prospect DT starting every single game since he was drafted.



Quote:

With that bit of smartassery out of the way I can continue. Comparing JJ Watt to Suh is insanity for a number of reasons including scheme. Using a 3-4 DE and comparing his dominance to a 4-3 defensive tackle doesn't prove your point any better.
It actually proves my point even more. 3-4 DEs aren't *supposed* to dominate. 4-3 DTs have more opportunities to exert themselves in pass rush situations due to the numbers on the defensive line. 3-4 DEs rarely put up stats because there are only 3 defensive linemen on those lines. The fact that Watt is putting up these numbers on a 3-4 line just shows what a superior player he is.

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD (Post 3182153)
I'm not sure I would call him a bust. A dissapointment? Yes, but not a bust.The term bust is generally held for people who have come into the league and done nothing. Suh had a great first year, never great against the run but then again the wide 9 doesn't expect the linemen to be great aginst the run. His play has tailed off but he is still a starter and has the ability to dominate games. If he is still underwhelming in another year or two then maybe he can be called a bust, but not at this point

Suh has basically been pedestrian the past two years. He's been the definition of a "JAG". The Lions defense hasn't been good, and Suh's lack of production has been a big reason for that.

You're right in that he is still starting games, and contributing something to the team, but he is far from the dominant player we expected from a #2 overall pick after his stellar college career. I'd venture to say that because the expectations were so high, that for Suh just to be an "average" player kind of makes him a bust.

cmarq83 11-14-2012 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 3182152)
Why not? All we heard was him and suh aren't even on the same level. What about now?

I remember the discussion that as prospects Suh was a superior prospect. I don't even think that it was particularly debatable at the time. I agree that Suh has disappointed since his rookie season, but I seriously think that scout is reaching on him not caring about getting better. The wide 9 is really unconventional for DT's, and I would be very intrigued to see how he plays in another scheme.

ImBrotherCain 11-14-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3182158)
A developmental QB sitting on the bench behind a Hall of Fame starter is a looooootttttt different than a plug-n-play elite prospect DT starting every single game since he was drafted.





It actually proves my point even more. 3-4 DEs aren't *supposed* to dominate. 4-3 DTs have more opportunities to exert themselves in pass rush situations due to the numbers on the defensive line. 3-4 DEs rarely put up stats because there are only 3 defensive linemen on those lines. The fact that Watt is putting up these numbers on a 3-4 line just shows what a superior player he is.

I was mainly being a dick but all in all I don't think you can call him a bust. Especially when he doesn't have the best supporting cast around him. They don't call it the ultimate team sport for nothing.

DeadEagle 11-14-2012 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 3182152)
Why not? All we heard was him and suh aren't even on the same level. What about now?



In each of their last 16 games (a full season), they've been statistically very close with McCoy a slight edge in tackles, sacks and TFL.


Overall though, both guys have lived up to their basements, and have only shown flashes of their ceilings.

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmarq83 (Post 3182162)
I remember the discussion that as prospects Suh was a superior prospect. I don't even think that it was particularly debatable at the time. I agree that Suh has disappointed since his rookie season, but I seriously think that scout is reaching on him not caring about getting better. The wide 9 is really unconventional for DT's, and I would be very intrigued to see how he plays in another scheme.

The Wide-9 can only make it easier to put up stats for Suh. If he was in a more traditional defenisve line, he wouldn't have the opportunity to rush the passer as often as he does now.

The fact that he plays in a Wide-9 and struggles to make plays just shows how ineffectual he has been. The Wide-9 is the pass rusher's best friend.

ImBrotherCain 11-14-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadEagle (Post 3182167)
In each of their last 16 games (a full season), they've been statistically very close with McCoy a slight edge in tackles, sacks and TFL.


Overall though, both guys have lived up to their basements, and have only shown flashes of their ceilings.

This might be the best I have heard it described.

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBrotherCain (Post 3182163)
I was mainly being a dick but all in all I don't think you can call him a bust. Especially when he doesn't have the best supporting cast around him. They don't call it the ultimate team sport for nothing.

That's just a flat-out excuse. How is JJ Watt putting up those stats? What Hall of Famers is he playing next to?

Suh is actually playing next to some great players, too. Top pick Nick Fairley? Kyle VandenBosch? Stud pass rusher Cliff Avril?

No excuses. Suh is just flat-out mediocre in the NFL right now.

ImBrotherCain 11-14-2012 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3182170)
That's just a flat-out excuse. How is JJ Watt putting up those stats? What Hall of Famers is he playing next to?

Suh is actually playing next to some great players, too. Top pick Nick Fairley? Kyle VandenBosch? Stud pass rusher Cliff Avril?

No excuses. Suh is just flat-out mediocre in the NFL right now.

Well Watt is playing in one the the top 5 (probably closer to 3) defenses in the league and I am sure he plays a large part in their success. The fact is that Vanden Bosch is getting older and has never been an elite pass rusher, Nick Fariley has been more bust like than Suh and Avril is far from a "Stud pass rusher". Their Linebackers are weak and their secondary is horrible at best.

All I am trying to get at here is that there is no way you can deem him a bust after 2.5 seasons. By that logic Vince Young would be on his way to the HOF.

cmarq83 11-14-2012 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3182168)
The Wide-9 can only make it easier to put up stats for Suh. If he was in a more traditional defenisve line, he wouldn't have the opportunity to rush the passer as often as he does now.

The fact that he plays in a Wide-9 and struggles to make plays just shows how ineffectual he has been. The Wide-9 is the pass rusher's best friend.

Just because it's easiest to put up stats doesn't mean that it's his best position. I thought coming out that Suh would be a sensational two gap 5 tech. He was very strong with his lockout, and was very good at disengaging from the point of attack. Sometimes I think Suh is given too much leverage to just rush a gap and turn upfield which doesn't effectively utilize his best assets as a player.

AntoinCD 11-14-2012 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmarq83 (Post 3182180)
Just because it's easiest to put up stats doesn't mean that it's his best position. I thought coming out that Suh would be a sensational two gap 5 tech. He was very strong with his lockout, and was very good at disengaging from the point of attack. Sometimes I think Suh is given too much leverage to just rush a gap and turn upfield which doesn't effectively utilize his best assets as a player.

Yup. Many people used Nebraska's read and react defense as an example of how Suh could be an even better pro than college player because he could attack more. However maybe that's what he was best at. He has the strength to hold the point of attack and see what unfolds and to say he can shed blockers is a monumental understatement. He can literally ragdoll offensive linemen.

Pat Sims 90 11-14-2012 03:23 PM

Geno Atkins has been the best DT to come out of that class so far.

Caddy 11-14-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vidae (Post 3182149)
I KNEW a Buc fan would just HAVE to come post here about McCoy. I knew it. :njx:

Vidae.









































Gerald McCoy.

cmarq83 11-14-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Sims 90 (Post 3182215)
Geno Atkins has been the best DT to come out of that class so far.

No disagreements from me there. He's a pretty limited player, but damn is his skill set valuable in the modern game.

Pat Sims 90 11-14-2012 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmarq83 (Post 3182222)
No disagreements from me there. He's a pretty limited player, but damn is his skill set valuable in the modern game.

He leads the team in tackles for loss in the running game and in sacks. He is not a limited player. The Bengals just rotate the entire DL which limits his playing time.

AcheTen (Thumper) 11-14-2012 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBrotherCain (Post 3182177)
Well Watt is playing in one the the top 5 (probably closer to 3) defenses in the league and I am sure he plays a large part in their success. The fact is that Vanden Bosch is getting older and has never been an elite pass rusher, Nick Fariley has been more bust like than Suh and Avril is far from a "Stud pass rusher". Their Linebackers are weak and their secondary is horrible at best.

A big part of the reason that the Texans are a top-3 defense is because of JJ Watt.

What happened to Suh being an elite playmaker that was going to revitalize the Lions defense? This guy was supposed to be the cornerstone of their defense going forward. He was going to be their marquee player. He was going to be their Reggie White, or their Bruce Smith.

Truly great players raise the level of play of others around them.

Quote:

All I am trying to get at here is that there is no way you can deem him a bust after 2.5 seasons. By that logic Vince Young would be on his way to the HOF.
A great player shows something consistently in 2.5 seasons. He doesn't regress, like Suh has.


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