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-   -   What Separates Star Lotulei? (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55581)

Nastradamus 02-07-2013 05:58 PM

What Separates Star Lotulei?
 
This is not a thread to criticize him or anything. I'm just curious. He seems to be solidly in the lead by a wide margin at the DT spot, typically mocked in the top 5. However, its a really good DT class with Richardson,FLoyd, Hankins,Williams,Short and others.

So my question is, out of ignorance mostly, what separates Star from the other top guys, most specifically Richardson and FLoyd?

rawdawg 02-07-2013 07:11 PM

Size (6'4", 325), quickness (lateral and up the field), strong as an ox, scheme flexibility (3-4 or 4-3), position flexibility (has played 0, 1, 3, and I'm sure he can play 5 technique). He's Hloti Ngata re-incarnated.

farfromforgotten 02-07-2013 07:17 PM

His name is "Star".

nepg 02-07-2013 07:23 PM

The whole package.

Size, athleticism, strength, and consistency (probably the main thing).

I do think there's risk taking him over another guy later, but the other guys also don't have the scheme/position flexibility.

On another note, I don't see what qualifies Hankins over Brandon Williams.

Babylon 02-07-2013 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawdawg (Post 3268643)
Size (6'4", 325), quickness (lateral and up the field), strong as an ox, scheme flexibility (3-4 or 4-3), position flexibility (has played 0, 1, 3, and I'm sure he can play 5 technique). He's Hloti Ngata re-incarnated.

Not as explosive as Ngata coming out from what I've seen. I'd say Richardson is right there with him but then there is a drop off.

For me you get those Red Bryant/Geno Atkins types down the road but it takes some good scouts to find them.

descendency 02-07-2013 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nepg (Post 3268658)
On another note, I don't see what qualifies Hankins over Brandon Williams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIpo1xF7IhI

Top 10 lock.

farfromforgotten 02-07-2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babylon (Post 3268663)
Not as explosive as Ngata coming out from what I've seen. I'd say Richardson is right there with him but then there is a drop off.

I agree with this. Richardson is definitely closest and is going to shoot up boards as the draft draws nearer, but I'd still take Star (as I'm sure most would). His name is "Star".

Nastradamus 02-07-2013 09:05 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I was curious to know what people thought of him. I like Richardson and Floyd a lot, but Star seems to be just a bit better and a bit safer, as well as more versatile.

Black Bolt 02-07-2013 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nastradamus (Post 3268725)
Thanks for the input guys. I was curious to know what people thought of him. I like Richardson and Floyd a lot, but Star seems to be just a bit better and a bit safer, as well as more versatile.

He'll be clad in silver and black shortly.

TACKLE 02-07-2013 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babylon (Post 3268663)
Not as explosive as Ngata coming out from what I've seen. I'd say Richardson is right there with him but then there is a drop off.

As a Ravens fan, I'd say Star is actually more explosive than Ngata.

Caulibflower 02-07-2013 11:45 PM

Do I just not know what I'm looking for if I say he's never really grabbed my attention while watching Utah tape? Am I alone in that? I usually feel like I have a pretty good idea of how to evaluate defensive linemen, and Star doesn't look bad to me by any means, but I'll just admit I'm a little mystified at how he seems to be universally considered a top-10 lock. I have to think it's mostly a matter of tools, but he seems more like an immovable object than an unstoppable force, if you know what I mean. I've really only watched him because I see him at the top of everybody's boards, and he's managed to never hugely impress me on tape. He looks really solid, but I sort of feel like that's all I want to say about him. He just looks solid. Looks like a player you know what you're getting.

SeahawkNMD 02-08-2013 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caulibflower (Post 3268834)
Do I just not know what I'm looking for if I say he's never really grabbed my attention while watching Utah tape? Am I alone in that? I usually feel like I have a pretty good idea of how to evaluate defensive linemen, and Star doesn't look bad to me by any means, but I'll just admit I'm a little mystified at how he seems to be universally considered a top-10 lock. I have to think it's mostly a matter of tools, but he seems more like an immovable object than an unstoppable force, if you know what I mean. I've really only watched him because I see him at the top of everybody's boards, and he's managed to never hugely impress me on tape. He looks really solid, but I sort of feel like that's all I want to say about him. He just looks solid. Looks like a player you know what you're getting.

I'd says as someone who ranks him #1 that what separates him in my eyes is his floor seems like an immovable object and his ceiling is an unstoppable force. With that size, strength, and explosiveness it seems that if he can put it all together consistently he'll be a guy everyone else wish they had.

Halsey 02-08-2013 12:52 AM

DT is one of those positions where everyone always thinks the top rated ones are "safe", yet the history of the NFL Draft tells a different story. Even if Lotulelei is good, that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to have much more of an impact on an organization than a DT who could be had later in the Draft.

TACKLE 02-08-2013 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caulibflower (Post 3268834)
Do I just not know what I'm looking for if I say he's never really grabbed my attention while watching Utah tape? Am I alone in that? I usually feel like I have a pretty good idea of how to evaluate defensive linemen, and Star doesn't look bad to me by any means, but I'll just admit I'm a little mystified at how he seems to be universally considered a top-10 lock. I have to think it's mostly a matter of tools, but he seems more like an immovable object than an unstoppable force, if you know what I mean. I've really only watched him because I see him at the top of everybody's boards, and he's managed to never hugely impress me on tape. He looks really solid, but I sort of feel like that's all I want to say about him. He just looks solid. Looks like a player you know what you're getting.


(This is exactly how I feel about Milliner but I'm more than just a little mystified.)

I dunno I'm kind of a big fan of Star. His quickness and athleticism are phenomenal for a 320 DT. I'm always impressed by his initial short area burst. He's by far the strongest and most powerful DT I've watched this year and probably since Suh - has that grown man strength. He plays under control with very good leverage and balance.

I understand the "immovable object more than an unstoppable force" comment. It's kinda how I felt about Dareus which is why I didn't love him as a top 3-4 pick. I agree to an extent about that as it relates to Star as I personally like him best as a 34 NT, especially if he put on a little more weight. Love his leverage and his technique (reminds me of Kris Jenkins sometimes) when they have him in that role. With the league weak in NT's right now I feel pretty comfortable in saying I could quite easily see him being the most dominant 34 nose in the league once Wilfork starts to get old and chill out. Utah had him two gap a lot so as well as playing 1-tech anchoring vs. doubles in the 40 so we didn't see a whole lot of him in an attacking role. He told Scott he wants to play at 310 and I think if trimmed down a bit and you put him in a system where he could get his weight going forward and he was allowed to attack upfield as a 3-tech (preferably playing less snaps as well), he will be a force. Whether you like him or love him, his strength and power are undeniable. You combine that with with his short area explosiveness and ability to use his hands and leverage to get up under guys, I do think you have the makings of a dominant, disruptive interior player. He makes a lot of plays with his disruptiveness that don't always show up in the stat sheet.

I actually took a little break from watching Star because I felt comfortable with him and watched a lot more Floyd/Richardson/Williams as of late. When I went back and watched Star just recently it felt pretty obvious to me that he was just on a whole different level. He's just so physically overwhelming and does so many things at a high level. It's like watching a man among boys at times. In a draft with a lot high potential players with a lot of unknowns, I think he's the guy that has the best combination of upside and on-field performance. I get a pure run-clogger not being worth such a high pick as I brought up with Dareus at the beginning but I believe Star has the ability to be much more than that.

duesouth 02-08-2013 02:50 AM

I've watched 4 of his games so far and in only one quarter of one game (1st quarter vs USC) did he look like a top 5 pick - and then he was up against a C (Khaled Holmes) with a bad ankle.

He can dominate - question is why did he do nothing against Utah State for example?

FUNBUNCHER 02-08-2013 04:13 AM

Seriously, I think Lotulei is benefiting from the similarities to Ngata.
I don't really think he's the clear cut #1 DT prospect.

Why did Chris Long get drafted so high?? (Because my dad is....!)
Star is a great prospect, but I don't see a guy who jumps out on film as a dominant interior guy consistently.

However I still think I'd choose him as my #1 DT because IMO there's more right than wrong about him as a prospect.

Black Bolt 02-08-2013 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER (Post 3268878)
Seriously, I think Lotulei is benefiting from the similarities to Ngata.
I don't really think he's the clear cut # DT prospect.

Why did Chris Long get drafted so high?? (Because my dad is....!)
Star is a great prospect, but I don't see a guy who jumps out on film as a dominant interior guy consistently.

However I still think I'd choose him as my #1 DT because IMO there's more right than wrong about him as a prospect.

By that same token, Nick Fairly dominated on nearly a down to down basis. He's not doing that in the pros. It works both ways. I actually think that Start will be a BETTER pro than college player with proper scheme, technique and NFL level talent around him. He has tools that cannot be taught. Reminds me a lot of all pro Chris Jenkins- a 2nd rounder by the way.

K Train 02-08-2013 08:18 AM

lets not act like ngata was a slam dunk prospect just because if we re-did that draft now he would go first overall

Star is very close to ngata, which bumps him up in the ratings quite a bit even if hes not a sure thing to be that impactful

Nastradamus 02-08-2013 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Bolt (Post 3268909)
By that same token, Nick Fairly dominated on nearly a down to down basis. He's not doing that in the pros. It works both ways. I actually think that Start will be a BETTER pro than college player with proper scheme, technique and NFL level talent around him. He has tools that cannot be taught. Reminds me a lot of all pro Chris Jenkins- a 2nd rounder by the way.

As a Lions fan I can tell you that Fairly is pretty damn dominant. He was a top 5 DT on PFF this year too.

Attyla the Hawk 02-08-2013 11:23 AM

He is not a Suh or even a Gerald McCoy type prospect. He has shown flashes where he is just dominant. That probably separates him from the rest of the pack, since really none of these DT prospects have shown they can just blow up a drive almost single handedly.

You're right though, other than that, there isn't a whole lot separating these DTs. Richardson and Lotulelei have more impressive plays and that's why they separate. Star separates from Sheldon due to flexibility and World Theory attributes. Richardson closes the gap somewhat with intensity, consistency and position value (pass rush DT).

But there isn't so much separation between Star and some guys that probably will go in round 2 that we could be comfortable saying Star will be the best of his class. There are probably 7-9 DTs that could thrive with as little as one NFL training camp and separate themselves from the pack.

At least with Lotulelei, you have game tape evidence that he can just dominate.

Black Bolt 02-08-2013 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nastradamus (Post 3268952)
As a Lions fan I can tell you that Fairly is pretty damn dominant. He was a top 5 DT on PFF this year too.

He is very good, but I wouldn't categorize him as dominant by any stretch as compared to him in college where he was a man amongst boys. He Looks to have gotten bigger as well.

P-L 02-08-2013 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nastradamus (Post 3268952)
As a Lions fan I can tell you that Fairly is pretty damn dominant. He was a top 5 DT on PFF this year too.

He was definitely our best defensive player until he got hurt.

gpngc 02-08-2013 12:02 PM

I don't want to go off topic too much but there are some weird things in here:

TACKLE: Come to the Milliner thread. I see where Calub is coming from with Star but I do not in any way see that when you watch Milliner on tape.

FUN: I don't get your Chris Long comment? Long was drafted high because he was a very good prospect and rightfully so. A lot of people thought Dorsey was better (he did have better film), but the Rams were smart to take Long over him.

Ktrain: Ngata WAS a top-5 prospect all throughout the season and then inexplicably dropped in rankings and landed at 13 on draft day. Why? There is always stuff going on behind the scenes. I'd argue that Ngata indeed was a better prospect than Star is now. No one knew the reason he fell (may have been concerns about character/work ethic that the Ravens overlooked because of their strong leadership).

Halsey 02-08-2013 12:08 PM

It's a total myth that Chris Long was a highly regarded prospect because of his father. Like his father, Long is/was a big, strong, athletically gifted DE who was productive in college and earned multiple awards. He solidified his position by having an impressive showing at the combine

K Train 02-08-2013 12:11 PM

chris long left people in amazement at the combine.

and i dont think ngata was a slam dunk top 5 prospect, i remember a lot of debate between who was better between him and bunkley


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