At this point, what do we make of Peyton Manning's legacy?

[Ness]

Peyton Manning is 9-11 all time in the playoffs and has been one and done 8 times. Joe Flacco is 7-4 in his fifth year in the league. This isn't to paint a picture between those two specific players, but with Tom Brady now passing Joe Montana as the leader in career playoff wins, I think it's time to revisit the debate in terms of where Peyton Manning stands among the all time greats. There are those who believe he is the greatest quarterback of all time and this recent stint probably doesn't change that perception. And even though the entire season isn't over, Manning's is. So I'm curious to what people here think regarding his spot with everyone else. Now I'm sure not everyone has seen the all time greats play game after game after game Sunday to Sunday, but if you have some idea then please voice your opinion.

For me, Manning's memorable moments are mostly bad ones. I still say he's one of the all time greats of course, but if we're talking maybe Mount Rushmore of quarterbacks or top five just within the Super Bowl era, I don't know if he goes on that list. It's really hard for me to put him there.

[bigbluedefense]

Greatest regular season qb of all time. Ok playoff qb. Overall still a top 5 qb of all time.

Just not as good as Brady. Who might be the greatest qb of all time if he wins another Super Bowl.

This last loss wasn't his fault though. Not entirely at least.

[NY+Giants=NYG]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Greatest regular season qb of all time. Ok playoff qb. Overall still a top 5 qb of all time.

Just not as good as Brady. Who might be the greatest qb of all time if he wins another Super Bowl.

This last loss wasn't his fault though. Not entirely at least.

Always been my favorite player. Immortal Regular season QB, who probably wins his 5th MVP. But come playoff time, I don't want him to be my QB.

[RaiderDiehard]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Greatest regular season qb of all time. Ok playoff qb. Overall still a top 5 qb of all time.

Just not as good as Brady. Who might be the greatest qb of all time if he wins another Super Bowl.

This last loss wasn't his fault though. Not entirely at least.

THIS.

He sneaks into the Top 5, whereas Marino doesn't.

[Ness]

Montana
Unitas
Brady
Elway
Young

That's my list. And in no specific order, just more so an overall group. Peyton Manning is right on the outside for me. I think Brees could join that list very soon.

[CJSchneider]

Originally Posted by Ness

Montana
Brady
Unitas
Brady
Elway
Young

That's my list. And in no specific order, just more so an overall group. Peyton Manning is right on the outside for me. I think Brees could join that list very soon.

Any reason why you have Brady on that list twice?

[Ness]

Originally Posted by CJSchneider

Any reason why you have Brady on that list twice?

No just a typo. I'll fix it.

[nobodyinparticular]

Originally Posted by Ness

Montana
Unitas
Brady
Elway
Young

That's my list. And in no specific order, just more so an overall group. Peyton Manning is right on the outside for me. I think Brees could join that list very soon.

I would probably switch out Unitas for Gannon. Otherwise this list is spot on.

[Monomach]

Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular

I would probably switch out Unitas for Gannon. Otherwise this list is spot on.

[Splat]

Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular

I would probably switch out Unitas for Gannon. Otherwise this list is spot on.

Please tell me you are joking.

I got Montana #1 and Elway #2 after that it's toss up for me between a hand full of guys.

With Steve Young and Rich Gannon not being in the discussion.

[JordanTaber]

Post-1980:

Steve Young
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino

[WCH]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

Post-1980:

Steve Young
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino

Dude. Any Post-1980 list has to include Favre. Bro, do you even watch football? Even any film at all, in the past 20 years?

JK, but Favre was clearly better than Brees. Everybody else, maybe not so much.

[nobodyinparticular]

Originally Posted by Splat

Please tell me you are joking.

I got Montana #1 and Elway #2 after that it's toss up for me between a hand full of guys.

With Steve Young and Rich Gannon not being in the discussion.

He set records before the league rules changed. He still has the record for most completions in a single game. He has the record for highest completion percentage in a game with at least 30 passes. He set the single season completion record, one that had stood for 11 years. He had another season with 3400 yards passing and 500 yards rushing--the oldest player to complete that feet by 4 years.

Gannon has clearly performed at a high level in an offensive environment entirely different from the one you see today. He is on another level from the guys who are putting up video game numbers today. And in an era with nearly the same offensive rules that Unitas played in, Gannon blows the former Raven out of the water. I mean come on. Unitas' career completion percentage is under 55%. He does not belong on QB Mt Rushmore. That honor clearly goes to the original dual threat QB, the pioneer of modern passing, Rich Gannon.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular

He set records before the league rules changed. He still has the record for most completions in a single game. He has the record for highest completion percentage in a game with at least 30 passes. He set the single season completion record, one that had stood for 11 years. He had another season with 3400 yards passing and 500 yards rushing--the oldest player to complete that feet by 4 years.

Gannon has clearly performed at a high level in an offensive environment entirely different from the one you see today. He is on another level from the guys who are putting up video game numbers today. And in an era with nearly the same offensive rules that Unitas played in, Gannon blows the former Raven out of the water. I mean come on. Unitas' career completion percentage is under 55%. He does not belong on QB Mt Rushmore. That honor clearly goes to the original dual threat QB, the pioneer of modern passing, Rich Gannon.

Now, you completely lost me, Gannon had a nice career but top 5, not even close and comparing him to Unitas's stats is absurd. Totally different eras.
55% was an all star # in Unitas's era because throwing the ball was extremely tough back then.
Anybody who tries to compare stats between eras is just wasting their time. It is meaningless.

[Stash]

I blame Peyton for Raheem Moore's failure. Manning is 9-11 in the playoffs while Flacco is 7-4, therefore Flacco is a much better QB than Manning. The rest of the team makes no difference in the outcome of a game, only the QB matters.

[WinslowBodden]

Originally Posted by Stash

I blame Peyton for Raheem Moore's failure. Manning is 9-11 in the playoffs while Flacco is 7-4, therefore Flacco is a much better QB than Manning. The rest of the team makes no difference in the outcome of a game, only the QB matters.

Manning has had a lot of awful games in the playoffs compared to what he does in the regular season.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by Stash

I blame Peyton for Raheem Moore's failure. Manning is 9-11 in the playoffs while Flacco is 7-4, therefore Flacco is a much better QB than Manning. The rest of the team makes no difference in the outcome of a game, only the QB matters.

Moore didn't help matters obviously, but plays like this don't help his case either.

[Monomach]

Here's a verrrrrrrry interesting read for everyone:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...or-help/20868/

[bigbluedefense]

I think Peyton deserves to be on top of Young for sure. The rest is up for debate. How far back do we go? Does Otto Graham belong in there? It's tough to say.

For me it's:

Montana
Brady
Unitas
Elway
Peyton

[Ness]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I think Peyton deserves to be on top of Young for sure. The rest is up for debate. How far back do we go? Does Otto Graham belong in there? It's tough to say.

For me it's:

Montana
Brady
Unitas
Elway
Peyton

Anyone that has played post merger. I suppose I would include Unitas who was around at the time of the merger, but was clearly at the end of his career. Otherwise I include Graham and maybe a few others.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I think Peyton deserves to be on top of Young for sure. The rest is up for debate. How far back do we go? Does Otto Graham belong in there? It's tough to say.

For me it's:

Montana
Brady
Unitas
Elway
Peyton

I think that Otto Graham has to be in this conversation. He was probably the most dominant QB in the history of the game. I think that three things work against him:

1. His first several seasons, the Browns were in the AAFL. They continued to dominate when they joined the NFL, but this still has to be mentioned.

2. You have to try really hard to find video footage of him. Most football fans alive today have never seen a full game that Otto Graham played in. We're doing good if we've seen a minute worth of highlights. There was no NFL Films in 1950.

3. Paul Brown was basically running the West Coast Offense 25 years before Bill Walsh started doing it. Graham was the first QB who could just drop into a pocket and throw a slant pass. I don't like to ding players for being in a certain system, but that's like driving a Cadillac when everybody else has a Model T.

[Forenci]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Lets also not forget that if we want to use the Brady won 3 Sbs off his defense, Manning won his ONLY SB off of his defense and running game. /End homer comment to stir up Brady Manning Debate

So what you're saying is Manning would have 4-5 Super Bowls if he had Brady's defense?

#tableturned

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by Forenci

So what you're saying is Manning would have 4-5 Super Bowls if he had Brady's defense?

#tableturned

Playing in Foxboro without his all star supporting cast? Not a chance.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by Forenci

So what you're saying is Manning would have 4-5 Super Bowls if he had Brady's defense?

#tableturned

I think Peyton is the best QB I've seen so far. I don't really think it's even close. At his peak, he was the "Robo Quarterback" that Todd Marinovich was raised to be. If Manning traded places with Brady 10 years ago, I think Belichick would have won damn near ALL the Super Bowls. And I'm a pretty big fan of Tom Brady.

[7DnBrnc53]

Originally Posted by WCH

I think that Otto Graham has to be in this conversation. He was probably the most dominant QB in the history of the game. I think that three things work against him:

1. His first several seasons, the Browns were in the AAFL. They continued to dominate when they joined the NFL, but this still has to be mentioned.

2. You have to try really hard to find video footage of him. Most football fans alive today have never seen a full game that Otto Graham played in. We're doing good if we've seen a minute worth of highlights. There was no NFL Films in 1950.

3. Paul Brown was basically running the West Coast Offense 25 years before Bill Walsh started doing it. Graham was the first QB who could just drop into a pocket and throw a slant pass. I don't like to ding players for being in a certain system, but that's like driving a Cadillac when everybody else has a Model T.

Graham also played with eight other Hall of Famers, and that, along with playing for Paul Brown, is probably the reason why he isn't rated that highly.

Back to Brady, though. Someone earlier on this thread said that Brady evolves and changes every year. I don't think so. I think that the Pats change and evolve every year, not Brady. You have to give Belichick credit for that.

When they won those Super Bowls, it was a team effort, and Brady rode those teams a little bit. 2004 was the last time that they ran for 2,000 yards as a team(not counting 08 with Cassel)with Brady playing most of the games until this year.

Since 04, it seems that Brady has been more and more the focus of the offense, and they haven't won a Super Bowl with it all on his shoulders. Heck, they were lucky to get there last year. If it wasn't for Lee Evans and Billy Cundiff, they don't.

To win it this year, they need to keep running the ball effectively, and the defense needs to get turnovers. They got eight turnovers in the three SB wins, and only one in the two losses against the Giants.