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Old 05-18-2008, 06:09 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
i don't think the tebow/smith comparison is a fair one. tebows just bigger and more athletic all the way around.

and id rather have a great athlete who can win titles and run when things break down but has poor mechanics than the other way around. you can always reteach a throwing motion.....

and for the record, with all of my dislike of matt ryan, i like stafford more at this point
No you can't...thats why its such a big problem.

Changing a guys natural throwing motion is usually extremely hard because he's spent years throwing a certain way.

Iunno, Tebow's got alot of things to come over. Just not playing in a pro style offense will hurt him in teams eyes...playing in a pro style offense at the college level is vital to a young QB's development IMO.
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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No you can't...thats why its such a big problem.

Changing a guys natural throwing motion is usually extremely hard because he's spent years throwing a certain way.

Iunno, Tebow's got alot of things to come over. Just not playing in a pro style offense will hurt him in teams eyes...playing in a pro style offense at the college level is vital to a young QB's development IMO.
ok well then ill rephrase. i'll take a great athlete who is a good leader and can win championships but has a bad throwing motion over a guy who has visa versa
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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ok well then ill rephrase. i'll take a great athlete who is a good leader and can win championships but has a bad throwing motion over a guy who has visa versa
Troy Smith is another guy who had a bad motion but was athletic and a great leader. Of course he's not as big as Tebow (6-0 not 6-3) but they share reasons why they are not elite pro prospects. When comparing Smith and Tebow the only thing that there is comparing them is that they are both from Urban Meyer's spread that is not a good system to prepare you for the pros. Everyone loves a guy with good intangeables, but if you have a bad throwing motion then your chance of success in the NFL is not good at all.
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Troy Smith is another guy who had a bad motion but was athletic and a great leader. Of course he's not as big as Tebow (6-0 not 6-3) but they share reasons why they are not elite pro prospects. When comparing Smith and Tebow the only thing that there is comparing them is that they are both from Urban Meyer's spread that is not a good system to prepare you for the pros. Everyone loves a guy with good intangeables, but if you have a bad throwing motion then your chance of success in the NFL is not good at all.
hasn't seemed to hurt phillip rivers or vince young too badly and i recall that they were both guys that had throwing motion question marks about them

there are worse things about a QB that a bad throwing motion (see: grossman, rex - everything about him)
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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Tebow's throwing motion isn't even that bad. It's nowhere near as low as VY's or Phil Rivers. He's got a decent release but his accuracy is very good, especially deep ball accuracy. He hits recievers in stride all the time with a beautiful deep ball.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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ok well then ill rephrase. i'll take a great athlete who is a good leader and can win championships but has a bad throwing motion over a guy who has visa versa
So you are saying Stafford is not a great athlete (...okay? he is pretty damn mobile for his size and has a great arm). He doesnt have leadership abilities (I cant really tell as of now). Hasnt won a championship game (So...no Peyton Manning?)
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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So you are saying Stafford is not a great athlete (...okay? he is pretty damn mobile for his size and has a great arm). He doesnt have leadership abilities (I cant really tell as of now). Hasnt won a championship game (So...no Peyton Manning?)
Yea, Stafford is really athletic, people forget that he can run the football too. His 40 time will be around 4.6-4.7. Just because he doesn't run much doesn't mean he can't.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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So you are saying Stafford is not a great athlete (...okay? he is pretty damn mobile for his size and has a great arm). He doesnt have leadership abilities (I cant really tell as of now). Hasnt won a championship game (So...no Peyton Manning?)
no no no, not what i was saying at all. that had nothing to do with stafford.

i was just saying that if the throwing motion was the only know against a guy who had all that other stuff, id take him in a heartbeat if i needed a QB
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Throwing motion is one of the most important things in a QB. It makes all the difference. A long wind up not only allows DE's to get to the QB quicker and strip the ball, but it also gives the DBs a seconds heads up on where the QB is throwing it. Sure it doesnt seem that bad, but you add up all the pass attempts, and that bad windup can cause alot of mistakes.

Look at Byron Leftwich. Look at Andre Woodson.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Throwing motion is one of the most important things in a QB. It makes all the difference. A long wind up not only allows DE's to get to the QB quicker and strip the ball, but it also gives the DBs a seconds heads up on where the QB is throwing it. Sure it doesnt seem that bad, but you add up all the pass attempts, and that bad windup can cause alot of mistakes.

Look at Byron Leftwich. Look at Andre Woodson.
look at phillip rivers. look at vince young.

its not a be all end all, there are far worse things id worry about a QB having wrong with them (see: Grossman, Rex - everything about him)
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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Tebow's throwing motion isn't even bad why are you guys bringing it up?
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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look at phillip rivers. look at vince young.

its not a be all end all, there are far worse things id worry about a QB having wrong with them (see: Grossman, Rex - everything about him)
Rivers and Young have very quick side arm releases. Tebow has an awkward slow release.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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hasn't seemed to hurt phillip rivers or vince young too badly and i recall that they were both guys that had throwing motion question marks about them

there are worse things about a QB that a bad throwing motion (see: grossman, rex - everything about him)
Both Rivers and Young don't have slow releases, just unconventinal ones.

Tebow's is just long...similar to Leftwich or Andre Woodson...not to their level and obviously things might change this year...but it's still a very legit knock on him as a pro QB prospect.

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Old 05-18-2008, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Rivers and Young have very quick side arm releases. Tebow has an awkward slow release.
Tebow's release is a bit awkward but it isn't slow by any means. It's not the fastest but it's decent
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Tebow's release is on the slow side, but he has room to cut time off his release without throwing off his general motion. I'm really high on the guy but he isn't going to take over right away as a passer as he learns the scheme.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Tim Tebow will have to quicken his release, adapt from his unconventional spread to a pro-style attack(something rarely done), and learn that he can't play-action to himself or just bulldoze opponents to be a good NFL quarterback.

He has potential, but it is obvious that he is at least somewhat a product of the system.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Tebow's release is ridiculously slow in my opinion. The first thing when I saw him play was his release and how long it took. He winds up forever before he delivers the ball. And even when the ball is delivered, its not a rocket like Vick's or Leftwich's.

Not only does his release concern me, but also the style of offense he runs. Its basically a 1 maybe 2 read system. If those guys arent open, then he just runs. You really have to go through your progressions in the NFL because running is not always an option.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Tebow's wind up before his release is longer than usual and it certainly is one thing working against him. His mechanics are fuzzy too which definitely contribute to his accuracy problems. In the NFL teams want a guy with a quick release who can make all the throws and not have to worry about accuracy problems. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and most great QBs have lightning quick releases and that's a huge reason why they never get sacked even if their protection is not that good.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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I think Tebow would benefit from coming out after this year, because if he stays for his senior year he will get picked apart by scouts. But two of the teams that could potential draft him (bears,49ers) have got burned by players he has ties to. I just hope him and Stafford are both in the same draft class so this debate will continue.

Stafford isn't fast by no means, but is a better runner then he is given credit for. He had some nice TD runs this year agianst GT and KY. I think his TD runs from over 10 yards out are about the same as tebow. (without looking up the stats)
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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Either way if Tebow enters the draft in 2009 or 2010, I think he would definitely be best suited to get drafted in the mid to late part of the first round rather than near the top by a team who will want to throw him into the fire immediately like bad teams always do with top pick QBs. He is a guy like Alex Smith who will need a lot of pro coaching before he should see an NFL defense in live action. Not just in terms of learning to pass exclusively from the pocket, but also in terms of refining his techinque and making all the reads and the other things that are way different from his shotgun spread at Florida. He's not gonna be a guy who can just put his team on his back and win a game like Vince Young did at Texas or during his rookie year in Tennessee.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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By alot of pro coaching, I hope you mean like sitting on the bench for at least a year maybe two.
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:01 PM    (permalink
jnew76
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My thoughts on the 4 Quarterbacks mentioned recently in this thread...

Phillip Rivers - The only knock on Rivers coming out was the awkward delivery. His arm strength is above average. His accuracy is excellent on short to intermediate routes and average on the deep routes. He is a coaches son, gym rat, and played in a Pro-Style offense for 4 Years in College as a starter. Prototypical size. He was way ahead of most QBs that come out due to his footwork and ability to throw with great accuracy on Pro-Style timing routes. He was the unquestioned leader of the NC St. team for 4 years and everyone knew it. He was also the MVP of all 4 bowl games he played in in college going 4-0. People really forget how good he was in college.

Vince Young - There was so much to like and to dislike about VY coming out. You cannot like the awkward delivery. You cannot like the Spread offense he came out of in College. I also did not like the fact that around 70% of the balls he threw were less than 7 Yards down the field because he looked to check down to soon. When he did go down field he tended to underthrow the deep ball and let his extremely gifted WR's adjust. However, with all that said, there was so much to like about VY coming out. He has great size and athletic ability. He played his best on the biggest stage in College football and led an inferior talented team to a victory. VY had good accuracy on short routes and decent accuracy on the move. He has a really strong arm, yet can throw with touch. But the MAIN reason I thought VY was and is an excellent prospect is that he makes the 2.5 seconds you normally have to throw the ball into almost 5 seconds consistently. He is so big and strong with great feet that he routinely enables WR's to create seperation long after they should be done with routes. He simply has the ability to make positive plays out of what should be negative plays. And finally, I think he just has the "it" factor.

Tim Tebow - He has a bit of a windup in his delivery. When his footwork breaks down he is not accurate down the field and has trouble throwing a spiral. When he has good footwork he is very accurate but still struggles to throw a spiral at times. (I mention this because he never really plays up north in the wind where the lack of a spiral will affect the ball more). He plays in a gimmicky offense and makes limited reads. He would need a ton of work on his footwork but like VY I think that his athletic ability might enable him to get by with it more than other prospects. He is not as accurate as VY throwing on the run and usually has to almost come to a stop to throw because of the wind up. He might be the strongest QB to ever come out pound for pound and he has needed that strength to run in the SEC. However he will need to find the sidelines like VY or learn how to slide really quickly. He has top leadership ability and by all accounts tremendous character. Right now I would give Tim a 2nd-3rd round grade, but knowing how hard he works and how gifted he is, I would not rule out him impoving enough this year to warrant a 1rst round grade.

Matthew Stafford - He has the best throwing mechanics by far in this group. Natural, effortless release that is quick and compact. He can easily make all the throws in the NFL. Like any sophomore QB I have ever seen, his footwork is what leads to most of his problems when he is innacurate. That said, the third year as a starter in college seems to be where the greatest improvement is made IMO. Last year Stafford looked a little mechanical, especially the first half of the year. He looked so much better the 2nd half of the season. Stafford has the most prototypical QB make-up of this group by far. He is in an offense that runs from under center and works out of 3-5-7 step drops. He has good footwork for a Junior-to-be but it is not on the same level as Rivers when he came out. Above average athleticism and good size. Should have a huge year with defenses focusing on stopping the Georgia running game. My only question on Stafford is that his leadership and personality have not come out yet IMO. With Rivers, Tebow and VY, you knew who the unquestioned leader of the team was. I don't get the same impression with Stafford, but I could have said the same thing about Eli Manning coming out. I think he projects as the #1 QB barring injury and a top 5 pick if he declares.
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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All this talk of throwing motions and mechanics and delivery - all good.

But let's get two things straight.

Some QBs have succeeded in the NFL despite an awkward delivery. It can be corrected or at least compensated.

A lot more QBs with prototypical bodies and perfect mechanics with amazing throwing strength have never made it.

Stafford has the size, the arm strength, the mechanics and decent athleticism. He's got everything you want in a QB.

Except for the numbers.

Are stats the only thing you should look at in judging a QB? No, of course not. You gotta watch them play.

And the first thing that jumps out at you about Stafford - makes bad decisions. Inconsistent. Inaccurate. Seems to lose focus. Bailed out by strong defense and excellent running game.

You're telling me that I should consider him a top five pick, based on the potential that he might work out all these problems eventually? When? How long will it last?

Sure, he's got the physical tools. But just like the statistics, it's only one part of the game.

(edit)
Also, if Stafford wasn't the QB for a SEC power and national title contender, would we even be having this conversation? How much of our views are colored by the team he plays for?

What if he was putting up 55% completion, 19/10 TD/int, 56th in passer efficiency at Vanderbilt? Would he be even considered a first rounder? He'd be playing the same SEC defenses, the only difference would be that Vandy is horrible, which would actually excuse such poor play.

Mackenzi Adams did complete 55% last season for Vandy. No one's saying he'll be drafted, even.

I see the potential in Stafford and think he might make big strides this season. And he better. Because if he doesn't start playing up to that potential now, in UGA's projected championship year, then I'd reckon there's very little chance he'll ever get it in the NFL, no matter how high he gets drafted.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKim172 View Post
All this talk of throwing motions and mechanics and delivery - all good.

But let's get two things straight.

Some QBs have succeeded in the NFL despite an awkward delivery. It can be corrected or at least compensated.

A lot more QBs with prototypical bodies and perfect mechanics with amazing throwing strength have never made it.

Stafford has the size, the arm strength, the mechanics and decent athleticism. He's got everything you want in a QB.

Except for the numbers.

Are stats the only thing you should look at in judging a QB? No, of course not. You gotta watch them play.

And the first thing that jumps out at you about Stafford - makes bad decisions. Inconsistent. Inaccurate. Seems to lose focus. Bailed out by strong defense and excellent running game.

You're telling me that I should consider him a top five pick, based on the potential that he might work out all these problems eventually? When? How long will it last?

Sure, he's got the physical tools. But just like the statistics, it's only one part of the game.

(edit)
Also, if Stafford wasn't the QB for a SEC power and national title contender, would we even be having this conversation? How much of our views are colored by the team he plays for?

What if he was putting up 55% completion, 19/10 TD/int, 56th in passer efficiency at Vanderbilt? Would he be even considered a first rounder? He'd be playing the same SEC defenses, the only difference would be that Vandy is horrible, which would actually excuse such poor play.

Mackenzi Adams did complete 55% last season for Vandy. No one's saying he'll be drafted, even.

I see the potential in Stafford and think he might make big strides this season. And he better. Because if he doesn't start playing up to that potential now, in UGA's projected championship year, then I'd reckon there's very little chance he'll ever get it in the NFL, no matter how high he gets drafted.
I find it interesting that you chose Vanderbilt when I was just thinking about comparing him to Jay Cutler. As for your hypothetical, if he had those numbers at Vanderbilt I think it would be much like Cutler's situation; passed off as a product of the conference and the lack of surrounding talent. You might even make that same argument of Georgia, considering Cutler had Chris Williams and Earl Bennett.

One other way to make a comparison would be to look at past quarterbacks. D.J. Shockley was a bit different, but his career completion percentage was 53.7 and his senior completion percentage was 55.2. Before that, David Green had a 58.5 percentage as a senior. So as a collegiate passer, to this point Stafford has shown nothing worthy of meriting his hype. He isn't the athlete Shockley is/was, although he is not that dissimilar to Greene at this point. If Greene was a third rounder and Stafford was a second based on better measurables, I would say that is fair, but to deserving of a first round ground he has to produce.

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Old 05-19-2008, 06:44 PM    (permalink
JeffSamardzijaIRISH
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People forget that Georgia had some god awful WR's last year and the year before. Numerous drops and incorrect routes also attribute to Stafford's low completion %.
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